Unions - Good or bad?

[MaryAnne]

I have dealt with unions at tradeshows as well. It's total bullshit.

The poster has told that story a dozen times.Time to post a new one.

Sorry,Dave.This one really hit me. I still pay Union dues and gladly will until I die.I know what they have done for me. I also know the average Union worker takes great pride in what he does. I lived through the days when management was screaming to get those parts out the door,no matter how flawed they were!

I saw older workers angry at those who came in with an attitude that they deserved the same wages older workers had worked for and walked a picket line to get. That is gone now, and I am glad.They start at lower wages and work up.

GM has all new management now and they listen to their Designers and Engineers,the guys that design the cars. You see how quick they turned around with new products.

 

[degsme]

I don't know - you would have to ask that board of directors.

Sometimes it is difficult to add all the little daily incompetencies in documentation that actually accounts for a looser employee. Some times an employee is just a PITA.

Hmm and a PITA employee is fireable because of why?

 

[Addy]

So it didn't work out too good

Scabs.. are just like some of the people in this nation... vote against themselves instead of what is in their own best interest=ignorance.

Union leaders can become crooked too.. I am not that naive..

 

[Dave]

Dave - what does the latter example have to do with Unions? note also that $20 million 2 years ago IS $50 million 4 years from now at 9% interest rates. And that doesn't count the "opportunity cost" of other budget priorities. So saving $20 mil 2 years ago is a decision a Corporation would make as well. for example, if you look at the Microsoft Corporate Campus, their original buildings are 2 story affairs with no office more than 1 office away from exterior light. Their current office buildings are 6-9 stories tall and much denser footprint.

I admit I am not 100% sure, but I believe all MNDOT employees are union, hence the reason I included this example. Here is their union website - http://afscmemn.org/. Now, I am telling you right now I could be wrong about the fact that they are union, but being pretty sure like I am it's why I brought it up.

Regarding your statement about 20 million 2 years ago being 50 million in 4 years, perhaps that will happen (not a given), but if 50 million in 4 years IS worth what 20 million was 2 years ago then I'm sure the project will be 100 million in 4 years. My point is, and according to the story, if they did the extra bridges all at once it would have been 20 million more on the project. If they did them SEPARATE (same year), it would cost 50 million in today's dollars.. In other words, it's cheaper to do them all at once vs. separate. It's got nothing to do with inflation.

As for the guys with the lumber. Can you blame them? What makes you think their slow pace was the result of Union work? Why is it not simply the result of a lousy lousy lousy construction economy and two guys who don't know here their next project is coming from, milking their salaries for all they can get?

This is a problem in my book. If people work that way, we all pay for it one way or another in the long run. An example is of course production. If a company hires 20 USA union workers that carry one piece of wood at a time vs 20 Indian workers that carry 6 pieces of wood at a time for the same price, who do you think they will stick with for employees? It's a world market, and we aren't just competing with ourselves anymore.

How do you know that the Gym Managment did not specifically forbid the use of dollies to save wear and tear on the flooring?

Moot point, it was an example I was using as a method of better production. They could have easily each carried 6 2x4's at a time, or if they walked together probably more than 12. Also, their walking pace was slower than my mom who (I'm not kidding here) just had her hip replaced 2 weeks ago and is doing therapy as we speak with a walker....

 

[lupehernandezdepedajack]

And why should they be? How is your failure to plan a crisis on their part?

There was no crisis and in Dave's words there was just BULLSHIT

 

[MaryAnne]

You mean the way senior GM Management was fired in the 70s, 80s and 90s for building and designing crap cars?

That was the problem.They did not listen to their Engineers,only wanted short term profits and bonuses. They cared little about the quality of their products.

Once the moribund management team was gone you can see what is happening. And now,they are smart enough to share profits with the employees who make those good quality products.

Trade shows have little to do with the building of products.They simply spend a few days showing off what the real workers have done! Get real guys!

 

[lupehernandezdepedajack]

Scabs.. are just like some of the people in this nation... vote against themselves instead of what is in their own best interest=ignorance.

Union leaders can become crooked too.. I am not that naive..

I love it "SCABS" guys not in the union with families to support and are willing to take a job under threat of having their tires slashed or worse are 2nd class citizens in your mind. Thats mighty big of you

 

[MaryAnne]

Scabs.. are just like some of the people in this nation... vote against themselves instead of what is in their own best interest=ignorance.

Union leaders can become crooked too.. I am not that naive..

Thanks,Addy. We have said so many times,but still hear the constant refrain.The bad old Unions caused it all.
As Dave said,That is HS.

 

[lilly]

How much over time does your daughter put in Lily? Without pay? Homework,Furthering her Education? If the state pays her for that,good. Many companies do the same for employees.

I know how dedicated most Teachers are. With the Education they have most could certainly be paid more in other jobs.

My Son is an Engineer and is one of the few who are in a Union. He has seen the destruction imposed on many workers on the floor and it really makes him angry. One of the rare few who think about their workers.Do not kid yourself,if Republican get their way the middle class is going down. I have watched the destruction because a few were greedy in the Union and got in bed with the boss.

My Son sat in on contract negotiations and has seen more than he cares to.

I so agree MA, especially if Romney gains the Presidency which I am working hard in my small way locally and not nationally as I did for the 2008 election, to make sure it doesn't happen. That would be the end of the middle class.

 

[degsme]

I admit I am not 100% sure, but I believe all MNDOT employees are union, hence the reason I included this example.

MNDOT Construction labor may be union, but construction LABOR doesn't make those sorts of decisions. Instead those are made by the State MNDOT management - which is NOT union. In fact it is ELECTED.

Regarding your statement about 20 million 2 years ago being 50 million in 4 years, perhaps that will happen (not a given), but if 50 million in 4 years IS worth what 20 million was 2 years ago then I'm sure the project will be 100 million in 4 years.

]
again, other than based in prejudice, why?

My point is, and according to the story, if they did the extra bridges all at once it would have been 20 million more on the project. If they did them SEPARATE (same year), it would cost 50 million in today's dollars.. In other words, it's cheaper to do them all at once vs. separate. It's got nothing to do with inflation.

Yes it is cheaper UP FRONT to build them together, but it has everything to do with inflation and Opportunity cost.

Because that's $20 million you are paying bonds on NOW that you instead can be collecting interest on (or using in other higher priority projects).
That's $20 million that is not collected in taxes today but $50 mill that is collected later on on inflated tax monies.

See that sort of financial complexity IS PART AND PARCEL of such decisions (Ive been in WADOT meetings where exactly this sort of tradeoff was discussed(. and your knee jerk reaction here has NOTHING to do with unions.

This is a problem in my book. If people work that way, we all pay for it one way or another in the long run.

Yes we do. But again, what does this have to do with Unionization? what does this have to do with hiring Indian workers? Remember that India has huge infrastructure problems. And the idea that somehow we should "race to the bottom" to compete with a nation that cannot even feed all of its people or keep them from burning to death couples that marry outside their families' blessings despite laws that protect them from that - well that's hardly consistent with upholding the kind of lifestyle you want to live.

It is NOT a "world market" for the labor to construct your Gym in the USA. It is purely a LOCAL market.

Nor is it a moot point if the Gym Mgmt told them that they could not use a dolly. If the customer wants something it is not "better production" to ignore what the customer asked for.


Look this is a classic case where you have competing economic interests. the workers have a personal economic interest in maximizing their incomes. and the customer has an economic interest in minimizing their cost. And at somepoint an intersection is found.

That you don't like where that took place or perhaps that the Gym Mgmt wasn't as competent as it should be, has no bearing on UNIONS. Particularly since you dont even know its a union issue,.

 

[MaryAnne]

Then why did the execs at GM not get fired for 30 years of running their companies into the ground?

See what Unions are there for is to offset that disparity. Because in an "at Will" state, you can fire someone for reasons OTHER than incompetence. That you need to SHOW incompetence when dealing with unionized labor is no different than having to show malfeasance in trying to break a contract you have with a vendor.

So what you are asking for really, is the ability to fire WITHOUT a basis of incompetence... simply based on prejudice.

Or,as Mitt says,"I like firing people!"

 

[lupehernandezdepedajack]

Those UPS guys earn their money.. We have to hire an extra warehouseman or two every couple of months his job is to lay down in front of the UPS truck so he won't leave without all the stuff we sold and need to ship. Those guys don't wait.

The other good point of Unions is that expectations of the worker and management are spelled out if the contract is well done

 

[lupehernandezdepedajack]

for some reason we keep running out of warehouse guys

 

[MaryAnne]

In some cases you are right. I was engaged at one time to a Union mediator and what a difficult job that was. He took his job seriously and I know the saying, 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' came to mind every day. He didn't have a law degree but spent half his life the law libraries.

Lily,think of the moderators on this board, then multiply it by thousands and sit down with the Attorneys from the Company, that pull every trick in the book.


Then go back and listen to your members because you had to negotiate. Congress comes to mind while I am typing this.

 

[MaryAnne]

Unions started up to protect the workers. They served a good purpose at that time, but like many good things, they've grown into a big strong effort in the direction of "screw everybody but me".

I see unions being a huge detriment to progress and a huge contributor to our bad economy. Just my opinion.

Why am I not surprised at that statement from a Teacher who says she was never in a union?

 

[Dave]

...interesting rant.

Thank you!!

...how do you know the carpenters were union? How did you know what they were doing? How do you know the club safety requirements related to construction in an operating facility such as your club? Just curious, since you seem to have some strong opinions as to what they were doing and how.

The club (I asked the manager) hired out a vendor. Although I am not 100% they are union, it sounded like they were (it's a large corporate vendor). They gutted, and rebuilt the sauna (hence the wood). It's not so much the carpentry, or building of the sauna and the speed of it I am upset about. It's the "carrying one piece of wood at a time at a snails pace" is what I'm upset about.

...as for construction on highways. This is a never ending saga of universal dissatisfaction. Since I am not a highway engineer nor a traffic pattern analyst I need to defer criticism. What I can comment on are the ever present pressures for these people to do the maximum for the minimum. This coupled with the American "lack of vision" - in other words, planning beyond the next year - you got what you got..

MNDOT lady on the news says "We had the plans approved by a committee of the public (surrounding homes I'm guessing???). Then they interviewed one guy on that committee and he said they noticed the lack of the two bridges and assumed it was a drawing error so they didn't say anything. HUH??

 

[Dave]

One thing is clear,none of the posters know the least thing about Unions and what they have done for the labor Force and middle class over the years.

Another thing is clear,not one of you are old enough to remember how workers had to survive thugs,deaths and beatings to get decent wages and benefits,not only for the Union members,but also for the other workers because Companies had to pay decent wages to get workers.

Every post I read in this thread is regurgitated stories of how bad Unions are.

Why do you think the Middle class is hurting today? You do not suppose it could be the weakening of the Unions themselves by such actions like what Kasich tried to pull here in Ohio, Daniel's in Indiana? Walker in Wisconsin? Live on in your dream world guys, while the greedy B****** steal you blind.

Even old Henry Ford knew he had to pay decent wages so his workers could afford to buy his cars. My Grandpa worked for him.And left with a pension. Something unheard of back then.

Hey MA, I'm sure that Unions have done a lot of good for a lot of people, and are still doing so today. Again though I think that it hurts us as a whole rather than helps us in today's time. Mainly because it's a world market, and our workers are competing with other countries, so in a sense unions can really hurt our jobs and wages. But if I were to put it bluntly I would say:

-I like unions because they protect the workers wages and health care, stuff like that (CEO's shouldn't be making 10000 times more than skilled workers in my opinion)

-I don't like unions because I hear and see many stories of laziness because workers can get away with it. Production lacks, sales lack, company profits lack, and everyone pays eventually.

 

[Dave]

Then why did the execs at GM not get fired for 30 years of running their companies into the ground?

See what Unions are there for is to offset that disparity. Because in an "at Will" state, you can fire someone for reasons OTHER than incompetence. That you need to SHOW incompetence when dealing with unionized labor is no different than having to show malfeasance in trying to break a contract you have with a vendor.

So what you are asking for really, is the ability to fire WITHOUT a basis of incompetence... simply based on prejudice.

As an employer, assuming no contracted term of employment, you should have the right to fire them without a basis of incompetence. If you don't like the way they smell, fire them. Why? You started the business, you can have people work for you that you choose. If you hire someone, they have the right to choose to work for you, or they can work for someone else.

 

[Dave]

I wouldn't mind one bit, if Walmart had a union take over. They tread their employees like dirt and something should be done.

So you want the prices at walmart to go up? :0

 

[degsme]

As an employer, assuming no contracted term of employment, you should have the right to fire them without a basis of incompetence.

Ah but that's the point of a union - that it IS a "contracted term of employment". IE it puts the worker on the same footing as other vendors that contribute COGS to company. You'd be hard pressed to argue that there shouldn't be Purchasing Contracts and Service Level Agreements in place between vendor and corporate customer.

Yet that is EXACTLY what you are doing by arguing against unions. You are in essence saying that workers - for some unknown reason - need to NOT be treated on an equal level with corporate vendors.

Why?