Unions - Good or bad?

[MaryAnne]

Hey MA, I'm sure that Unions have done a lot of good for a lot of people, and are still doing so today. Again though I think that it hurts us as a whole rather than helps us in today's time. Mainly because it's a world market, and our workers are competing with other countries, so in a sense unions can really hurt our jobs and wages. But if I were to put it bluntly I would say:

-I like unions because they protect the workers wages and health care, stuff like that (CEO's shouldn't be making 10000 times more than skilled workers in my opinion)

-I don't like unions because I hear and see many stories of laziness because workers can get away with it. Production lacks, sales lack, company profits lack, and everyone pays eventually.

Dave,if you read my posts you will see I mentioned the lazy ones who made the good workers so angry.

That does not mean we do not still need Unions. If we had all good Corporations that took care of their workers,the way John Patterson and Colonel Deeds did when they started NCR the worker would be happy. Unfortunately I have seen too much of the other side. As soon as Deeds and Patterson died the compnay went down and so did the employees.

The same happened with the Company Kettering started right here, named DELCO, (Dayon Engineering Laboratory Company.) Once GM took it over the company was not the same.Thus the Unions. Fighting for decent wages,health Care,40 hour week,over time.Something that Bush took away from White Collar workers. He could not do that to Blue Collar,they have a union.
Do not kid yourselves that Unions are not still needed. They are.

 

[888888]

I haven't. That post was not talking about union labor - but talking about working with people who are difficult to work with in general.

well you make it sound like Unions are all people who don't do their jobs and are hard to work with. I can tell you right now that most union shops are better run, more productive and have a much more educated workforce and a group of people who have more feeling towards the success of their company than ones who don't have unions.

Evey body can point to someone somewhere that they have had a problem with in a business setting. I can tell you right now most of the people I have had a problem with have not been union members.

 

[MaryAnne]

Unions wouldn't have had anything to do with the 2 ramps not being built. That kind of decision is made during the design phase. More likely, this is a play by some bureaucrat to make his department (and him) look good.

Unions are, overall, a good thing. But there are occasionally downsides to them. The 2 dummies in the gym (not you and Chris, of course ) are examples of the downside.

Thank you)

 

[connieb]

I did not mean to imply that in my post. I did mean to say however that if a person is a PITA to work with - they should be able to be fired -and being a PITA should be cause enough. It does seem from what I have experienced with my clients who are union contractors that is not enough to fire them. But, certainly, it is not indicative of all unions or all union labor.

 

[Woolleybugger]

So folks like you are willing to throw out high paying, secure blue collar jobs all across the nation because you get really mad when you have to pay too much to a union worker at a trade show? I tell you what. I realize this really pisses you off and it is super important to you but where is your outrage at the gigantic disparity between the compensation of executives and the common man in a typical company with no union labor? If only you had as much venom in that dagger for the folks who really make the money...

 

[MaryAnne]

I understand where you are coming from, and I know you and others on this site are part of unions, and I have friends/family that are as well (waste management, nurses union in MPLS, etc). They all, to my knowledge, work hard and don't screw their employers. In that sense, I am happy for them, I really am. It's like you said though, there are those that come in and get the attitude of what they deserve. If they don't get it, they don't do anything to make their company suffer. They can't be fired. It's a mess in many cases.

I brought up this post because I watched two guys carry 1 2x4 at a time into a locker room for a week. That really hit me!! I know it isn't the case for all union workers, which is why I placed the "good or bad" in the title.

What you say used to true,Dave.Not so any more. Unions have been weakened by succeeding Presidents and Congress they have little pull any more. And that is why wages are so flat for the average worker, while the CEO is becomeing wealthier by the minute.

I think that may be changing now. As I said, my son saw both sides during negotiations with a big company and their Attorneys. It was not pretty.

 

[Woolleybugger]

I meant a 2 week courtesy notice when you leave a job. The amount of severance and notice given when you are let go is something that is controlled by state law unfortunately. I find this lack of protection for workers to be an externality pushed on to the tax payer by an employer.

 

[888888]

Dave and others, it pains me to hear about how it is hurting us in a global economy, and Unions are not good because of it. Is anyone at any time who has this opinion wanting to cut the wages and benefits of people who are not union, because they are not as good or do they produce as much as union workers. Is it fair to ask people who produce to drop down to the wage and benefits of people who don't do or produce or know as much.
Are people at the top being asked to give back parts of their wages, or benefits because this is a world market place? I don't see it. Are Ceo's or top corporate officers doing this? I don't see it. The only people being pounded by this global economy are middle income people and esp union workers.

When all members of our society take a bath, stores, business owners, stock holders, apartment rents, ect ect. then you might make sense. But by saying only middle income people should pay the price, then I don't agree.

Not to mention the benefits that a tax plan(20% reduction in rates)like Romney put forth that of course gives the people who are doing the best a bigger advantage.
a person paying 10% gets a 2 % reduction on a few dollars. A person who is making 10,000,000 is getting a 6% reduction on almost all of their income. 10%=8%=maybe 400 savings. 34%=6.8%=680,000. gee great Romney. But of course most of romneys money is already taxed at 15%(that won't change) but many republicans get paid wages that do come under the tax code, so hes buying their vote of course.

 

[lilly]

so you want the prices at walmart to go up? :0

yes...

 

[Woolleybugger]

So? The cost to an economy of having to prove why you are firing someone is grossly overstated. I have hired people all over the world including France, Sweden, Germany, Brussels, Australia and Singapore. Those nations all seem to do just fine and manage to protect their workers as well.

 

[lupehernandezdepedajack]

What you say used tob e true<Dave.Not so any more.Unions have been weakened by succeeding Preisdents and Congress they have little pull any more.And that is why wages are so flat for the aerage worker,while the CEO is becomeing wealthier by the minute.

I think that may be changing now. As I said, my son saw both sides during negotiations with a big company and their Attorneys. It was not pretty.

I keep telling you guys..it doesn't matter Union or Non Union we are experiencing wealth redistribution on a global level. We are bleeding manufacturing jobs because even a non union factory worker here is wealthier than 70% of the global population. The UN and WTO and NAFTA and Kyoto are all about taxing the wealthier countries and giving exemptions and advantages to the developing countries all in an effort to redistribute the global wealth. It sucks when it happens Huh. A Union outfit may expedite the loss of the manufacturing operation quicker but thats about the only difference....Someday in the future you will look back as your beans are cooking and you are patting the masa into tortillas and say, Damn you Lupe!!! Only the elites will be living the good life. Now a major war or a worldwide depression may change the direction and the USA would come out with an advantage towards rebuilding and restructuring. But besides that, get used to whats going on now>

 

[Woolleybugger]

Bingo. The Walton family owns more wealth than over 100 million Americans. While we think it is improving our lives to buy cheap goods, at what price did those goods cost us and what if any gain did we get as opposed to the few Waltons that control tens of billions of dollars in pure net worth and income?

 

[degsme]

I don't know under what scenario you work - but many industries don't utilize purchase contracts or Service level agreements

Sure they do. But some SLAs are simply legally enforced as a defacto (Warranty of Merchantability being one such).

as for purchase contracts - I've worked for startups as small as a 3 man shop. EVERYONE uses contracts. without them you don't get paid and have very weak recourse in court. Sure your Mow and Blow and such don't. But even someone doing a remodel uses a contract. And if you try to break that contract unilaterally, that contractor can lien your house and then you end up in at least arbitration if not small claims court.

And yet your claim is that granting employees similar leverage is somehow impracticable. Why?

 

[lupehernandezdepedajack]

Bingo. The Walton family owns more wealth than over 100 million Americans. While we think it is improving our lives to buy cheap goods, at what price did those goods cost us and what if any gain did we get as opposed to the few Waltons that control tens of billions of dollars in pure net worth and income?

So lets confiscate all the Walton money and reduce this years deficit by about 50 billion that will fix everything huh

 

[Dave]

I've done trade shows... I know the fees.

Again the issue is that the Trade show is a situation where you are Feast or Famine as an employee but the operator is subsidized by the tax payer. So a union basically evens out the negotiating positions. It would be better for the satisfaction of the vendors if the operator simply charged a flat rate per booth and folded the labor costs into it. They don't because they know that makes it seem like a cheaper event than it is - thus easier to market up front, and the union takes the bad rap for the actual full cost.

But that's not an accurate analysis

absent a union, the setup would be done by unskilled and temporary labor. You would have a lot more "shrinkage" and fire hazards from sloppy work, and the Venue operator would have much higher complaint rates.

Think it through from the perspective of ALL of the transactional interests in play.

Temp labor, highly doubt it those convention centers are booked up pretty good, or were.

 

[Dave]

Unions wouldn't have had anything to do with the 2 ramps not being built. That kind of decision is made during the design phase. More likely, this is a play by some bureaucrat to make his department (and him) look good.

Unions are, overall, a good thing. But there are occasionally downsides to them. The 2 dummies in the gym (not you and Chris, of course ) are examples of the downside.

Haha, true true

 

[MaryAnne]

I keep telling you guys..it doesn't matter Union or Non Union we are experiencing wealth redistribution on a global level. We are bleeding manufacturing jobs because even a non union factory worker here is wealthier than 70% of the global population. The UN and WTO and NAFTA and Kyoto are all about taxing the wealthier countries and giving exemptions and advantages to the developing countries all in an effort to redistribute the global wealth. It sucks when it happens Huh. A Union outfit may expedite the loss of the manufacturing operation quicker but thats about the only difference....Someday in the future you will look back as your beans are cooking and you are patting the masa into tortillas and say, Damn you Lupe!!! Only the elites will be living the good life. Now a major war or a worldwide depression may change the direction and the USA would come out with an advantage towards rebuilding and restructuring. But besides that, get used to whats going on now>

Amen,Lupe! That is exactly what the head of the tea party Patriots and the leader of OWS said on Dylan last week!

They want us fighting with each other! Bless your soul, we have been sold down the river with trade agreements that favor any country,but us!

 

[Woolleybugger]

So lets confiscate all the Walton money and reduce this years deficit by about 50 billion that will fix everything huh

I would be for taking it all myself and leave them with a billion each. I call it progressive taxation..No one should ever control that much wealth.

 

[888888]

You got to realize that Wall-mart has become one of the few places that a person can shop and get what they need without running all over the country side. What they have done is force business to cut cost to them so they can undercut prices. The profit hasn't been changed, but in many cases it has been improved to benefit those who own stock and the Walton type people who are owners of then company. There are a lot more of them out there than just the Waltons though.

and allowing the rich to keep more and the middle class to do with less, and pay more of the cost of govt is a sure fire result for poverty as a nation, and group of very wealthy people at the top.

 

[Dave]

So folks like you are willing to throw out high paying, secure blue collar jobs all across the nation because you get really mad when you have to pay too much to a union worker at a trade show? I tell you what. I realize this really pisses you off and it is super important to you but where is your outrage at the gigantic disparity between the compensation of executives and the common man in a typical company with no union labor? If only you had as much venom in that dagger for the folks who really make the money...

Well, if those tradeshow workers didn't charge me to plug our pc's in I wouldn't think it was BS most likely. I also felt, and still feel, that the outrages gouges at the shows I attended were the results of unions being able to do whatever they wanted basically. No, I am not saying I want to take the jobs away, I'm saying as a customer I shouldn't be charged that much to plug something in. Actually, after spending about 50k at that show, we quickly chose to not present at upcoming shows. I think in the last 10 years I've had 3 booths total. It's not economically smart for us as a company to do it, with pricing like that. So, we got screwed big time the first one, learned and moved on. (Estimated costs prior to attending this conference were 35k total, so the extras really got us).