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US government bullying its citizens, threatening to DESTROY them financially

i'm unsympathetic. 40 years ago white southern florist shops refused to provide flowers for interracial weddings, with the same excuse.

if you operate a business which is open to the pubic, then you cannot pick and choose which customers to serve, based on religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political party, gender . . .
 

Barbella

Senator
if you operate a business which is open to the pubic, then you cannot pick and choose which customers to serve, based on religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political party, gender . . .
Probably true in this politically correct climate. At the same time, she DID recommend three other shops who would've been happy to accommodate the customer. If I were the customer, instead of suing the shop, I would be just as happy to take my business (and my money) elsewhere.

I prefer to let capitalism take its course. She's the one losing out for refusing to serve certain people. Plenty of others who are perfectly willing to do so.
 
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connieb

Senator
if they don't do exactly as they want them to. America: The Land of The Free, Home of The Brave.

My ass. Not anymore.

“It’s about freedom, not money,” she said. “You chose to attack my faith and pursue this not simply as a matter of law, but to threaten my very means of working, eating and having a home.”

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/02/23/flower-power-christian-florist-rejects-attorney-generals-offer-wont-betray-her/?intcmp=latestnews

This is just another example of progressive Gov't over-reach.

She referred these people to other florists. Her mistake was in being honest with them. But, then I believe that any business short of common carriers should be able to discriminate on whatever basis they want to discriminate one. And, gay florists can open up and cater to that market that other florists aren't catering to. I do not believe that you can twart the constitution freedom to associate by making laws saying you have to serve other customers. I think that stuff came out of the civil rights era and we have not really seen fit to challenge it well. I think if it comes up in this court, we will see them say they will not enforce forcing someone to violate their faith just because they are in business. I don't think we should make pharmacists carry birth control, or OBGYN's perform abortions, or any professional violate the core beliefs of their own faith or even just their moral code.
 

Barbella

Senator
This is just another example of progressive Gov't over-reach.

She referred these people to other florists. Her mistake was in being honest with them. But, then I believe that any business short of common carriers should be able to discriminate on whatever basis they want to discriminate one. And, gay florists can open up and cater to that market that other florists aren't catering to. I do not believe that you can twart the constitution freedom to associate by making laws saying you have to serve other customers. I think that stuff came out of the civil rights era and we have not really seen fit to challenge it well. I think if it comes up in this court, we will see them say they will not enforce forcing someone to violate their faith just because they are in business. I don't think we should make pharmacists carry birth control, or OBGYN's perform abortions, or any professional violate the core beliefs of their own faith or even just their moral code.
I agree. Forcing people to violate their own beliefs by threatening to destroy their lives is government overreach at its finest.
 

connieb

Senator
That's exactly right. The question is why do we, as a nation, stand still for it?
Because we have become a nation of petty, bitter little people with no damn tolerance. You know tolerance, that concept of to each his own, you do your thing, I do my thing... it has been completely corrupted and replaced with lefty's version of "tolerance" which is unless you go out of your way to kiss the azz of some loud mouth minority - you aren't tolerant..

connie
 

Barbella

Senator
Because we have become a nation of petty, bitter little people with no damn tolerance. You know tolerance, that concept of to each his own, you do your thing, I do my thing... it has been completely corrupted and replaced with lefty's version of "tolerance" which is unless you go out of your way to kiss the azz of some loud mouth minority - you aren't tolerant..

connie
Progressivism is an insidious disease bent on destroying this nation. Like a cancer, it must be excised or the patient will die.
 
i'm unsympathetic. 40 years ago white southern florist shops refused to provide flowers for interracial weddings, with the same excuse.

if you operate a business which is open to the pubic, then you cannot pick and choose which customers to serve, based on religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political party, gender . . .
I think your opinion on this is comparing apples and oranges.

I also think that if this keeps up we aren't going to be seeing Jihad in the land but rather Crusades.
 
if they don't do exactly as they want them to. America: The Land of The Free, Home of The Brave.

My ass. Not anymore.

“It’s about freedom, not money,” she said. “You chose to attack my faith and pursue this not simply as a matter of law, but to threaten my very means of working, eating and having a home.”

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/02/23/flower-power-christian-florist-rejects-attorney-generals-offer-wont-betray-her/?intcmp=latestnews
Progressive Liberals are as hard to kill as zombies or vampires and much less preferable to them. I wish they were fictional too, or maybe that is what real life zombies and vampires are - progressive liberals.
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
The case the Judge cited is from 1878.

Precedence going back 136 years...Reynolds v US


Facts of the Case

George Reynolds, secretary to Mormon Church leader Brigham Young, challenged the federal anti-bigamy statute. Reynolds was convicted in a Utah territorial district court. His conviction was affirmed by the Utah territorial supreme court.

Question

Does the federal anti-bigamy statute violate the First Amendment's free exercise clause because plural marriage is part of religious practice?

Conclusion

No. Chief Justice Morrison R. Waite, writing for a unanimous court, held that the statute can punish criminal activity without regard to religious belief. The First Amendment protected religious belief, but it did not protect religious practices that were judged to be criminal such as bigamy. Those who practice polygamy could no more be exempt from the law than those who may wish to practice human sacrifice as part of their religious belief.


http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1878/1878_0

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Reynolds_V._United_States


Reynolds V. United States (98 U.S. 145 [1879]) was the first U.S. Supreme Court decision to interpret the "free exercise" language of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In giving an extremely narrow interpretation to that guarantee of religious freedom, theReynolds decision opened the way for legal suppression of the Mormon practice of plural marriage.

The Morrill Act (Act of July 1, 1862, 12 Stat. 501), which defined the crime of bigamy in U.S. territories, had been adopted for the express purpose of outlawing Mormon polygamous marriages. The First Amendment, however, expressly states that Congress shall "make no law…prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. The issue posed by the Reynolds case was whether a federal bigamy statute could constitutionally be applied to a person who practiced polygamy as a matter of religious duty. The Court held that it could.

George Reynolds, an English immigrant to Utah, private secretary to Brigham Young, and husband of two wives, was found guilty in March 1875 of violating the antibigamy provision of the Morrill Act. The conviction was overturned by the Utah Supreme Court on procedural grounds (United States V. Reynolds, 1 Utah 226 [1875]), but on retrial he was again convicted and was sentenced to two years in prison with a $500 fine. This conviction was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.

In applying the First Amendment's free exercise clause, Chief Justice Morrison R. Waite concluded that "Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order" (98 U.S. 164). This distinction between protected religious belief and unprotected religious actions was followed for several decades, and this specific holding regarding plural marriage is still the law. Since 1940, however, the Court has said that religious conduct also may fall within the free exercise guarantee (Cantwell V. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296).


In Cantwell...the courts holds that actions are subject to regulation...

...On the other hand, it safeguards the free exercise of the chosen form of religion. Thus the Amendment embraces two concepts,-freedom to believe and freedom to act. The first is absolute but, in the nature of things, the second cannot be. Conduct remains subject to regulation for the protection of society. The freedom to act must have appropriate definition to preserve the enforcement of that protection. In every case the power to regulate must be so exercised as not, in attaining a permissible end, unduly to infringe the protected freedom...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantwell_v._Connecticut
 

connieb

Senator
Progressivism is an insidious disease bent on destroying this nation. Like a cancer, it must be excised or the patient will die.
What for the life of me I do not get is WHY for the love of GOD we can't just mind our own damn business. If she doesn't sell to those gay people, how in the hell is that my business? It is an issue between the two of them. And, if its not my business - its not Gov'ts business EITHER.

And, before we we forced the end to segregation and forced businesses to serve those they didnt' want to serve, we actually had thriving black businesses - that served black customers. But then what happened is that they forced white businesses to serve black customers and the black businesses went out of business - why becuase EVEN though blacks would go to white businesses and probably went out of their way to in order to give the big FU to whitey... white people STILL would not go to black businesses.

You see this is the great thing about capitalism. When you allow it to sort itself out, it often does so equitably. When you force unnecessary regulations on it, it acts inequitably. When you have a need someone will come along and fill that need.

Now if we had some sort of major monopoly and they refused to do business with black people or gay people, that would be a problem. So, in certain instances, I can see why there would be some need to force an issue - which is why I said, exempting common carriers - that was typically a term referring like stage coaches and inns. And so yes, cabbies shouldn't be able to discriminate, inns shouldn't' be able to discriminate. Those are the kinds of services which may have a monopoly in a certain area and whose refusal could mean life or death to the people involved. It is very serious. But, you can pick another damn florist or baker or pharmacist or Dr. or almost anything else.


connie
 

Barbella

Senator
The case the Judge cited is from 1878.

Precedence going back 136 years...Reynolds v US


Facts of the Case

George Reynolds, secretary to Mormon Church leader Brigham Young, challenged the federal anti-bigamy statute. Reynolds was convicted in a Utah territorial district court. His conviction was affirmed by the Utah territorial supreme court.

Question

Does the federal anti-bigamy statute violate the First Amendment's free exercise clause because plural marriage is part of religious practice?

Conclusion

No. Chief Justice Morrison R. Waite, writing for a unanimous court, held that the statute can punish criminal activity without regard to religious belief. The First Amendment protected religious belief, but it did not protect religious practices that were judged to be criminal such as bigamy. Those who practice polygamy could no more be exempt from the law than those who may wish to practice human sacrifice as part of their religious belief.


http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1878/1878_0

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Reynolds_V._United_States


Reynolds V. United States (98 U.S. 145 [1879]) was the first U.S. Supreme Court decision to interpret the "free exercise" language of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In giving an extremely narrow interpretation to that guarantee of religious freedom, theReynolds decision opened the way for legal suppression of the Mormon practice of plural marriage.

The Morrill Act (Act of July 1, 1862, 12 Stat. 501), which defined the crime of bigamy in U.S. territories, had been adopted for the express purpose of outlawing Mormon polygamous marriages. The First Amendment, however, expressly states that Congress shall "make no law…prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. The issue posed by the Reynolds case was whether a federal bigamy statute could constitutionally be applied to a person who practiced polygamy as a matter of religious duty. The Court held that it could.

George Reynolds, an English immigrant to Utah, private secretary to Brigham Young, and husband of two wives, was found guilty in March 1875 of violating the antibigamy provision of the Morrill Act. The conviction was overturned by the Utah Supreme Court on procedural grounds (United States V. Reynolds, 1 Utah 226 [1875]), but on retrial he was again convicted and was sentenced to two years in prison with a $500 fine. This conviction was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.

In applying the First Amendment's free exercise clause, Chief Justice Morrison R. Waite concluded that "Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order" (98 U.S. 164). This distinction between protected religious belief and unprotected religious actions was followed for several decades, and this specific holding regarding plural marriage is still the law. Since 1940, however, the Court has said that religious conduct also may fall within the free exercise guarantee (Cantwell V. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296).


In Cantwell...the courts holds that actions are subject to regulation...

...On the other hand, it safeguards the free exercise of the chosen form of religion. Thus the Amendment embraces two concepts,-freedom to believe and freedom to act. The first is absolute but, in the nature of things, the second cannot be. Conduct remains subject to regulation for the protection of society. The freedom to act must have appropriate definition to preserve the enforcement of that protection. In every case the power to regulate must be so exercised as not, in attaining a permissible end, unduly to infringe the protected freedom...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantwell_v._Connecticut
#1: Barronelle Stutzman knew Rob Ingersoll for nearly ten years. In the news media coverage, Rob Ingersoll and Barronelle Stutzman’s nearly decade long friendship is frequently left out. Rob and Barronelle’s warm, cordial friendship, based on a mutual appreciation for creativity and beauty and flowers, flies in the face of the growing mythology of the hateful, Christian business owner who refuses to serve homosexual customers.

#2: Barronelle Stutzman was targeted by the attorney general of her state. For most Americans, their state attorney general’s office doesn’t factor into their daily lives. Until the Spring of 2013, the same could be said for Barronelle. The Washington state attorney general’s office heard about the story in the media and filed a lawsuit against Barronelle without even receiving a request from Rob Ingersoll or his partner. In an unprecedented way, the Washington state attorney general’s office interpreted a state statute to single out and punish a private citizen.

#3: Barronelle Stutzman is being sued professionally and personally. It wasn’t enough for the attorney general’s office to sue her as the owner of Arlene’s flowers, but he decided to use Barronelle to make a political point. The state of Washington and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) are suing Barronelle, not just in her role as a business owner, but also, personally. So, in addition to facing legal trouble with her business, Barronelle’s house and other personal assets are at risk.

#4: Barronelle Stutzman heard about Alliance Defending Freedom through friends. When Barronelle received the first letter from the attorney general’s office, she knew that she would need an attorney, and because she’s like most people, she didn’t have an attorney on speed dial. So a friend told her about Alliance Defending Freedom. She went from being targeted by her state government and completely alone to having several attorneys who are willing and able to defend her right to freely live out her faith.

http://blog.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/2014/05/23/4-things-you-need-to-know-about-barronelle-stutzmans-story/
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
#1: Barronelle Stutzman knew Rob Ingersoll for nearly ten years. In the news media coverage, Rob Ingersoll and Barronelle Stutzman’s nearly decade long friendship is frequently left out. Rob and Barronelle’s warm, cordial friendship, based on a mutual appreciation for creativity and beauty and flowers, flies in the face of the growing mythology of the hateful, Christian business owner who refuses to serve homosexual customers.

#2: Barronelle Stutzman was targeted by the attorney general of her state. For most Americans, their state attorney general’s office doesn’t factor into their daily lives. Until the Spring of 2013, the same could be said for Barronelle. The Washington state attorney general’s office heard about the story in the media and filed a lawsuit against Barronelle without even receiving a request from Rob Ingersoll or his partner. In an unprecedented way, the Washington state attorney general’s office interpreted a state statute to single out and punish a private citizen.

#3: Barronelle Stutzman is being sued professionally and personally. It wasn’t enough for the attorney general’s office to sue her as the owner of Arlene’s flowers, but he decided to use Barronelle to make a political point. The state of Washington and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) are suing Barronelle, not just in her role as a business owner, but also, personally. So, in addition to facing legal trouble with her business, Barronelle’s house and other personal assets are at risk.

#4: Barronelle Stutzman heard about Alliance Defending Freedom through friends. When Barronelle received the first letter from the attorney general’s office, she knew that she would need an attorney, and because she’s like most people, she didn’t have an attorney on speed dial. So a friend told her about Alliance Defending Freedom. She went from being targeted by her state government and completely alone to having several attorneys who are willing and able to defend her right to freely live out her faith.

http://blog.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/2014/05/23/4-things-you-need-to-know-about-barronelle-stutzmans-story/
The case cited...is from 1878.

I find it even more bizarre that a woman who considered these folks good friends couldn't celebrate their union by baking them a cake.

Still...we are a nation of laws, correct? As my post showed, the case cited as precedence dealt with action...based on religious belief, back in 1878.
 

connieb

Senator
#1: Barronelle Stutzman knew Rob Ingersoll for nearly ten years. In the news media coverage, Rob Ingersoll and Barronelle Stutzman’s nearly decade long friendship is frequently left out. Rob and Barronelle’s warm, cordial friendship, based on a mutual appreciation for creativity and beauty and flowers, flies in the face of the growing mythology of the hateful, Christian business owner who refuses to serve homosexual customers.

#2: Barronelle Stutzman was targeted by the attorney general of her state. For most Americans, their state attorney general’s office doesn’t factor into their daily lives. Until the Spring of 2013, the same could be said for Barronelle. The Washington state attorney general’s office heard about the story in the media and filed a lawsuit against Barronelle without even receiving a request from Rob Ingersoll or his partner. In an unprecedented way, the Washington state attorney general’s office interpreted a state statute to single out and punish a private citizen.

#3: Barronelle Stutzman is being sued professionally and personally. It wasn’t enough for the attorney general’s office to sue her as the owner of Arlene’s flowers, but he decided to use Barronelle to make a political point. The state of Washington and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) are suing Barronelle, not just in her role as a business owner, but also, personally. So, in addition to facing legal trouble with her business, Barronelle’s house and other personal assets are at risk.

#4: Barronelle Stutzman heard about Alliance Defending Freedom through friends. When Barronelle received the first letter from the attorney general’s office, she knew that she would need an attorney, and because she’s like most people, she didn’t have an attorney on speed dial. So a friend told her about Alliance Defending Freedom. She went from being targeted by her state government and completely alone to having several attorneys who are willing and able to defend her right to freely live out her faith.

http://blog.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/2014/05/23/4-things-you-need-to-know-about-barronelle-stutzmans-story/

God that makes me beyond sick. These people persuing this woman should be ashamed of her. Why can they just not let anyone live in peace if they don't want to live the way she wants. WHY in the world have we allowed this insidious repulsive concept of political correctness and fealty to it, rule our lives? We will live to rue the day. Some of us already are.
 
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