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Weird situations and gun policies.

Arkady

President
There's an idea, often discussed in law school, that "hard cases make bad law." It's a very old saying which basically comes down to the concept that it's a bad idea to set law based on extreme cases -- that the law will serve better if it's crafted with more common cases in mind.

I think this is an important thing to keep in mind when it comes to gun policy. Regardless of where you lie on the gun control spectrum, there's a problem with deebating the issues primarily in light of mass shootings, when those are relatively rare. Every year, over 30,000 people are killed by firearms in this country. Of those, only a few dozen will be victims of mass shootings. So, setting policy on the basis of those rare occurrences is problematic.

This point should inject a note of caution into both sides of the gun control argument. For example, it calls into question the great emphasis gun-control advocates place on assault weapons, semi-automatics generally, and magazine capacity. Although gun control that addresses those things would, over the long term, probably mean fewer lives lost in mass shootings, so few are lost in such events, that the life savings are going to be quite minimal relative to the political capital expended.

On the other side of the argument, it also undermines the "good guy with a gun" case against gun control. It's admittedly possible that if more club-goers had concealed firearms on their persons, the Orlando shooting would have had a lower death toll, since someone might have killed the shooter before he could kill so many people. But, such events are so rare that the benefit could easily be outweighed by the cost in extra lives lost to more ordinary shootings (e.g., the many cases where what would have been a garden-variety bar brawl instead wound up as a murder --or self-defense homicide-- because one or more participants had a firearm at hand).

I understand the urge of gun control advocates to look for the "low hanging fruit," from a political perspective. It's hard to push anything past the anti-gun-control absolutists, so it's tempting to take on the issue in some fringe way that won't impact the vast majority of gun owners (e.g., banning assault weapons). But, it's likely to be only marginally effective, and it may actually be counter-productive in the big picture (wasting lots of political capital on something where the gains, even if achieved, might be immeasurably small). Better to think about guns in the context of the most common killings -- either suicides or murders of close friends and family (e.g., someone shooting his wife).

One thing we need to do is get the CDC to study these issues much more extensively, so we have good data to work with. For example, consider the possibility of imposing a universal waiting period for new gun buyers. The likely effectiveness of that measure could be estimated by looking into what percentage of gun deaths occur within certain periods of the acquisition of the firearm. If a disproportionate share occur within, say, the first week of acquisition (e.g., a "heat of the moment" purchase followed by a "heat of the moment" killing), it suggests that a mandatory "cooling off period" before someone can get his hands on a gun may save a bunch of lives (while doing nothing to prevent the formation of a well-regulated militia). If, on the other hand, killings happen no more often in that first week than in an average week after that, then such a rule would just be an inconvenience with no benefit. Knowing which requires good data.
 
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Bugsy McGurk

President
Good post.

And it's true - the vast majority of gun deaths result from hand guns. Our nation is so thoroughly awash in them that the problem will likely get no better during our lifetimes. And what are hand guns designed for? Killing people.

We must look around at other civilized western societies, where gun deaths are exceedingly rare, and ask ourselves - how did we ever reach this point of madness? And will it ever end?
 

oicu812

"Trust, but Verify"
lets remove suicides as thats an individuals right to choose...as more and more states recognize suicide as such...

how many gun deaths are left?


The Brookings Institution's Richard Reeves highlighted one stunning example of this in a recent blog post: Among whites, 77 percent of gun deaths are suicides. But among black Americans, 82 percent of gun deaths are homicides.Dec 21, 2015.


Gun Deaths Are Mostly Suicides - The New York Times
www.nytimes.com/.../gun-deaths-are-mostly-suicid...
The New York Times
Oct 8, 2015 - Gun Deaths Are Mostly Suicides. When Americans think about deaths from guns, we tend to focus on homicides. But the problem of gun suicide is inescapable: More than 60 percent of people in this country who die from guns die by suicide.


Suicides account for most gun deaths | Pew Research Center
www.pewresearch.org/.../suicides-account-for-most-...
Pew Research Center
May 24, 2013 - Suicides by gun accounted for about six of every 10 firearm deaths in ... Fatal firearms accidents have decreased 61 percent over the last 20 ...
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
Good post.

And it's true - the vast majority of gun deaths result from hand guns. Our nation is so thoroughly awash in them that the problem will likely get no better during our lifetimes. And what are hand guns designed for? Killing people.

We must look around at other civilized western societies, where gun deaths are exceedingly rare, and ask ourselves - how did we ever reach this point of madness? And will it ever end?
Our nation "is awash" in immoral people who are willing to kill their fellow man.

Self-aiming, self-actuating firearms don't exist.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
Our nation "is awash" in immoral people who are willing to kill their fellow man.

Self-aiming, self-actuating firearms don't exist.
That's tedious. There would be far less murders if we were not awash in guns. Guns make it too easy to kill people. After all, they were invented for that purpose, and they are designed for that purpose. They work as designed, very effectively.
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
That's tedious. There would be far less murders if we were not awash in guns. Guns make it too easy to kill people. After all, they were invented for that purpose, and they are designed for that purpose. They work as designed, very effectively.
Our problem is that our society has too many people willing to murder their fellow man. This is irrefutable.

As usual, your singular suggested course is to address tools that murderous people sometimes use. You offer NO address of actual cause agent. In fact, you leverage the cause agent to cravenly eliminate items you don't like.
 
if someone wants to alter (or repeal) the 2nd amendment, there's a process for that.

it's called the constitutional amendment process, and it involves obtaining ratification from 2/3rds of the states.

I don't regard the flurry of ill conceived bills served up by senators, house members, mayors and governors in response to each shooting an attempt to "make law". rather, they're simply an attempt to pander to voters, and demonstrate their own position on gun control.

if slapdash legistlation could solve this problem, it would have been done already.
 

Arkady

President
lets remove suicides
Let's not. The impact of guns on suicides is a hugely relevant matter regardless of what you think about suicide being an individual's right to choose. First, obviously, there are minors and the insane to consider -- people who I think should be viewed as temporarily lacking the capacity to make that choice. Second, if it is a choice, let it be a calmly considered one, requiring real forethought and firm conviction, not just a rash decision made by someone in the grips of some short-term depression or disappointment. Guns shorten the distance between a half-baked suicidal impulse and an actual suicide, and that role should be factored into thoughts about gun control.

For example, consider the mandatory waiting period I discussed in the first post. It's possible that such a waiting period would meaningfully decrease suicides -- that more people suffering brief suicidal impulses would come to their senses during the waiting period, or would try and fail suicide through some less sure means, then get psychiatric care and recover. Sure, those who are truly intent on suicide are going to find a way regardless of such a limit -- even if it means waiting a week or two to get their gun, or going with some other method. But unless all suicides are people who are that patient/determined, it would save lives.

If we did disregard suicides, that would leave just under 12,000 gun deaths per year, which is still enough to be a significant source of mortality.
 

Arkady

President
Our nation "is awash" in immoral people who are willing to kill their fellow man.

Self-aiming, self-actuating firearms don't exist.
All societies have immoral people willing to kill their fellow man. Is our society composed of a higher share of such people than all the other societies of wealthy nations? Perhaps. But the pattern of the data is exactly what you'd expect to see if there were more going on than just an enhanced penchant for violence. Our homicide rates are more elevated, relative to those of peer nations, than other indicators of public immorality (e.g., rapes of rape, aggravated assault, etc.) That's what we'd expect to see if there were some factor that was resulting in a lot of events that would be lesser crimes elsewhere turning into murder here -- e.g., an attack that would have put someone in a hospital in Britain instead putting him in a morgue here. Guns are a plausible candidate for that factor enhancing our homicide problem.
 

Arkady

President
if someone wants to alter (or repeal) the 2nd amendment, there's a process for that.
Fortunately, we can make major inroads here without the need to amend the Constitution. There are lots of types of gun control that have never been ruled unconstitutional -- for example, local and state controls that remain in place today. And now that Scalia has shuffled off this mortal coil and will likely soon be replaced by a justice who isn't an extremist, future Second Amendment cases are more likely to be in line with past precedent, rather than the radical new readings we've had in recent years. That will further open up the scope of what can be done without an amendment.
 

oicu812

"Trust, but Verify"
Let's not. The impact of guns on suicides is a hugely relevant matter regardless of what you think about suicide being an individual's right to choose. First, obviously, there are minors and the insane to consider -- people who I think should be viewed as temporarily lacking the capacity to make that choice. Second, if it is a choice, let it be a calmly considered one, requiring real forethought and firm conviction, not just a rash decision made by someone in the grips of some short-term depression or disappointment. Guns shorten the distance between a half-baked suicidal impulse and an actual suicide, and that role should be factored into thoughts about gun control.

For example, consider the mandatory waiting period I discussed in the first post. It's possible that such a waiting period would meaningfully decrease suicides -- that more people suffering brief suicidal impulses would come to their senses during the waiting period, or would try and fail suicide through some less sure means, then get psychiatric care and recover. Sure, those who are truly intent on suicide are going to find a way regardless of such a limit -- even if it means waiting a week or two to get their gun, or going with some other method. But unless all suicides are people who are that patient/determined, it would save lives.

If we did disregard suicides, that would leave just under 12,000 gun deaths per year, which is still enough to be a significant source of mortality.


compared to what?
 

Barbella

Senator
That's tedious. There would be far less murders if we were not awash in guns. Guns make it too easy to kill people. After all, they were invented for that purpose, and they are designed for that purpose. They work as designed, very effectively.
A gun sure would've come in handy here:

Five Muslim thugs brutally attacked three innocent Americans outside a famous Philadelphia restaurant, and the police are making this case a top priority. The victims were grabbing a bite to eat after attending a wedding when they were savagely beaten and left for dead.

http://madworldnews.com/muslims-attack-philly-restaurant/
 

oicu812

"Trust, but Verify"
Fortunately, we can make major inroads here without the need to amend the Constitution. There are lots of types of gun control that have never been ruled unconstitutional -- for example, local and state controls that remain in place today. And now that Scalia has shuffled off this mortal coil and will likely soon be replaced by a justice who isn't an extremist, future Second Amendment cases are more likely to be in line with past precedent, rather than the radical new readings we've had in recent years. That will further open up the scope of what can be done without an amendment.

your response hinges on "if" "are more likely" and "more likely"...

its more likely you chose those words over "is" and "as proven" because the ones you chose is simply "wishful thinking"...nothing more...
 

Arkady

President
your response hinges on "if" "are more likely" and "more likely"...

its more likely you chose those words over "is" and "as proven" because the ones you chose is simply "wishful thinking"...nothing more...
None of us know for sure how things will play out. For example, although the political futures market currently only see about a 24% chance of Trump winning, it's still quite possible he could. If he does, the Republicans will be rewarded for their dereliction of Constitutional duty by Trump being the guy to fill Scalia's old seat (since Dems probably don't have the balls to block that the way the Republicans did to them). Based on what Trump's said, he'd fill that seat with someone like Scalia. If so, we'd likely see a continuation of the radical gun politics of the recent Supreme Court, rather than a return to the precedent of past second amendment jurisprudence. That would leave fairly narrow the scope for gun control that doesn't require an amendment. But even then, there are controls we haven't yet seen overturned by right-wingers legislating from the bench, so there are various regulations that could be attempted.
 

JuliefromOhio

President
Supporting Member
if someone wants to alter (or repeal) the 2nd amendment, there's a process for that.

it's called the constitutional amendment process, and it involves obtaining ratification from 2/3rds of the states.

I don't regard the flurry of ill conceived bills served up by senators, house members, mayors and governors in response to each shooting an attempt to "make law". rather, they're simply an attempt to pander to voters, and demonstrate their own position on gun control.

if slapdash legistlation could solve this problem, it would have been done already.
there you go with the nonsense again on the 2nd amendment.

Scalia said there's no problem with giving everyone the right to own a gun AND the right for locales to limit, restrict who CAN own a gun AND restrict, limit what TYPE of gun AND restrict, limit those weapons being carried around in public.

there are 2 Court rulings, barely a week old, that affirmed CT's right to limit high-powered weapons in their state and CA ruling concealed carry can be prohibited.
 

JuliefromOhio

President
Supporting Member
Our nation "is awash" in immoral people who are willing to kill their fellow man.

Self-aiming, self-actuating firearms don't exist.
actually, as your con buddy just posted above, more gun deaths are suicides than homicides. are you calling those emotionally ill people who kill themselves immoral?
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
All societies have immoral people willing to kill their fellow man. Is our society composed of a higher share of such people than all the other societies of wealthy nations? Perhaps. But the pattern of the data is exactly what you'd expect to see if there were more going on than just an enhanced penchant for violence. Our homicide rates are more elevated, relative to those of peer nations, than other indicators of public immorality (e.g., rapes of rape, aggravated assault, etc.) That's what we'd expect to see if there were some factor that was resulting in a lot of events that would be lesser crimes elsewhere turning into murder here -- e.g., an attack that would have put someone in a hospital in Britain instead putting him in a morgue here. Guns are a plausible candidate for that factor enhancing our homicide problem.
A "plausible factor"?!? It's the SINGULAR factor lefty is EVER willing to consider.

As law abiding, gun owning citizen, I'd like stat-crushers to control for criminal and inner city gang use of guns as well as suicides. Eliminate all of those, then get back to me on what gun crime rates are among normal, properly adjusted, well-parented citizens.

What we won't accept is rights conferred based on lowest common denominator conduct - which is always lefty's go-to impulse.

Stop seeking to implement policies that:

1) Focus on tools rather than cause agent
2) Fall strictly on the law-abiding, decent folks...who aren't the ones butchering folks.

In other words, use PROFILING in assigning statistics.
 
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