Were the Founding Fathers actually Christians?

[Craig]

To be Christlike.

Right. So...Jefferson kept slaves. He accumulated wealth...and debt. I do not consider that path "Christlike".

Indeed, if that is the definition, it surely does not fit the vast majority of those who claim to be Christian, as they are not, in any fashion, "Christlike"....

I define it as one who believes Christ is Lord and Savior. To whit, I do not consider myself a Christian...as I do not believe Christ is Lord and Savior...however, I do agree with many of the philosophies espoused by Jesus.

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

Right. So...Jefferson kept slaves. He accumulated wealth...and debt. I do not consider that path "Christlike".

Indeed, if that is the definition, it surely does not fit the vast majority of those who claim to be Christian, as they are not, in any fashion, "Christlike"....

I define it as one who believes Christ is Lord and Savior. To whit, I do not consider myself a Christian...as I do not believe Christ is Lord and Savior...however, I do agree with many of the philosophies espoused by Jesus.

It doesn't matter what I say your comprehension on a subject that you have absolutely no knowledge of will never understand.
1. Your concept of slavery of Christianity is skewed.
2. Jesus never condemned people for obtaining wealth
Matthew 25:14-30New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Parable of the Talents

14 “talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and hewent on his journey.16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his
19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *master.’

22 “Also the one who had received the two in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave intothe outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Craig]

It doesn't matter what I say your comprehension on a subject that you have absolutely no knowledge of will never understand.
1. Your concept of slavery of Christianity is skewed.
2. Jesus never condemned people for obtaining wealth
Matthew 25:14-30New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Parable of the Talents
14 “master’s money.

19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *master.’

22 “Also the one who had received the two in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “M)" data-cr="#cen-NASB-24038M" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into N)" data-cr="#cen-NASB-24039N" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark. 10:21...

Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”


Matthew 6:24 ESV / 121 helpful votes
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Luke 18:25 ESV / 101 helpful votes
For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

James 5:1-6 ESV / 100 helpful votes
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. ...

 

[Craig]

It doesn't matter what I say your comprehension on a subject that you have absolutely no knowledge of will never understand.
1. Your concept of slavery of Christianity is skewed.
2. Jesus never condemned people for obtaining wealth
Matthew 25:14-30New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Parable of the Talents

14 “talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and hewent on his journey.16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his
19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *master.’

22 “Also the one who had received the two in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave intothe outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hebrews 13:5 ESV / 55 helpful votes
Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

1 Timothy 6:17 ESV / 54 helpful votes
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

1 Timothy 6:10 ESV / 51 helpful votes
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

Revelation 3:17 ESV / 40 helpful votes
For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

Acts 20:35 ESV / 38 helpful votes
In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

James 2:5 ESV / 26 helpful votes
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

2 Corinthians 9:7 ESV / 24 helpful votes
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Matthew 6:19-21 ESV / 24 helpful votes
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

1 Samuel 2:7 ESV / 23 helpful votes
The Lord makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts.

1 Timothy 6:6-10 ESV / 22 helpful votes
Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

Luke 6:20-21 ESV / 22 helpful votes
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.


1 Timothy 6:9 ESV / 36 helpful votes
But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.

1 Timothy 6:18 ESV / 29 helpful votes
They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Luke 6:20 ESV / 29 helpful votes
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

James 1:11 ESV / 28 helpful votes
For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits.

Luke 6:24 ESV / 28 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

Mark. 10:21...

Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”


Matthew 6:24 ESV / 121 helpful votes
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Luke 18:25 ESV / 101 helpful votes
For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

James 5:1-6 ESV / 100 helpful votes
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. ...

ONCE AGAIN JESUS NEVER CONDEMNED PEOPLE FOR HAVING WEALTH. He condemned the love of wealth. I've tried to explained that you are ill prepared on this subject.

 

[Craig]

ONCE AGAIN JESUS NEVER CONDEMNED PEOPLE FOR HAVING WEALTH. He condemned the love of wealth. I've tried to explained that you are ill prepared on this subject.

Clearly...he did. The book is full of condemnation of the acquisition of wealth. I don't think you have the slightest clue about what's actually in the Bible.

2 Corinthians 8:9 ESV / 15 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.

Ezekiel 7:19 ESV / 15 helpful votes
They cast their silver into the streets, and their gold is like an unclean thing. Their silver and gold are not able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord. They cannot satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs with it. For it was the stumbling block of their iniquity.

Proverbs 23:4-5 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Do not toil to acquire wealth; be discerning enough to desist. When your eyes light on it, it is gone, for suddenly it sprouts wings, flying like an eagle toward heaven.

Luke 12:33-34 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Acts 2:44-45 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Matthew 19:21 ESV / 9 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Proverbs 30:8-9 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Remove far from me falsehood and lying; give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is needful for me, lest I be full and deny you and say, “Who is the Lord?” or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God.

Luke 12:15-21 ESV / 8 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully, and he thought to himself, ‘What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?’ And he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ ...


James 2:6 ESV / 7 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

Luke 1:53 ESV / 6 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty.

 

[Max R.]

ONCE AGAIN JESUS NEVER CONDEMNED PEOPLE FOR HAVING WEALTH. He condemned the love of wealth. I've tried to explained that you are ill prepared on this subject.

While a few other verses say that, Mark 10:20-31 does seem to show that there is a corruption of the soul in having wealth while others are poor.


https://www.bible.com/bible/111/mrk.10.20-31.niv
20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again,“Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
28Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel

30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

31But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

Clearly...he did. The book is full of condemnation of the acquisition of wealth. I don't think you have the slightest clue about what's actually in the Bible.

2 Corinthians 8:9 ESV / 15 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.

Ezekiel 7:19 ESV / 15 helpful votes
They cast their silver into the streets, and their gold is like an unclean thing. Their silver and gold are not able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord. They cannot satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs with it. For it was the stumbling block of their iniquity.

Proverbs 23:4-5 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Do not toil to acquire wealth; be discerning enough to desist. When your eyes light on it, it is gone, for suddenly it sprouts wings, flying like an eagle toward heaven.

Luke 12:33-34 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Acts 2:44-45 ESV / 11 helpful votes
And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Matthew 19:21 ESV / 9 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Proverbs 30:8-9 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Remove far from me falsehood and lying; give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is needful for me, lest I be full and deny you and say, “Who is the Lord?” or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God.

Luke 12:15-21 ESV / 8 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully, and he thought to himself, ‘What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?’ And he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ ...


James 2:6 ESV / 7 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court?

Luke 1:53 ESV / 6 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty.

Let me get this straight. You think Jesus condemned people for having wealth? If that were so how could the poor be able to give to the poor? Some people have got to have some wealth so they can give to those who have nothing. So once again you come here ill prepared Jesus does not condemn people having wealth, he only condemns the love of that wealth. Also while we're at it Jesus despised laziness if you didn't earn your wealth to provided for yourself and your family how could you give to those who could not provide for themselves such as the sick

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

While a few other verses say that, Mark 10:20-31 does seem to show that there is a corruption of the soul in having wealth while others are poor.


https://www.bible.com/bible/111/mrk.10.20-31.niv
20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again,“Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
28Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel

30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

31But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

He knew the rich mans heart he knew that he loved wealth more than others Love of money is what Jesus condemned not money itself

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

Wasn't Job a rich man who at no fault of his own lost his wealth only to gain it back?

 

[Max R.]

He knew the rich mans heart he knew that he loved wealth more than others Love of money is what Jesus condemned not money itself

Others verses do say the Love of money is the root of all evil, but this particular passage, if one takes the Bible literally, seems to indicate just being wealthy over the poverty of others is against the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Max R.]

Wasn't Job a rich man who at no fault of his own lost his wealth only to gain it back?

Old Testament. God also gambled with Satan to do it.

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

Others verses do say the Love of money is the root of all evil, but this particular passage, if one takes the Bible literally, seems to indicate just being wealthy over the poverty of others is against the teachings of Jesus.

Can't help the poor if everybody is poor

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

Old Testament. God also gambled with Satan to do it.

Yes it's old testament but it show God doesn't condemn people for having wealth because he gave back to Job double what he had taken away.

 

[Craig]

Let me get this straight. You think Jesus condemned people for having wealth? If that were so how could the poor be able to give to the poor? Some people have got to have some wealth so they can give to those who have nothing. So once again you come here ill prepared Jesus does not condemn people having wealth, he only condemns the love of that wealth. Also while we're at it Jesus despised laziness if you didn't earn your wealth to provided for yourself and your family how could you give to those who could not provide for themselves such as the sick

Right. Give away your wealth. Do not love your wealth.

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

Right. Give away your wealth. Do not love your wealth.

If you give all your wealth away how would you provide for your own, and that would mean those who were given to would also have to give away what they were given. Son you are ill prepared for this discussion.
Jesus didn't condemn wealth he condemned the love of wealth

 

[Craig]

If you give all your wealth away how would you provide for your own, and that would mean those who were given to would also have to give away what they were given. Son you are ill prepared for this discussion.
Jesus didn't condemn wealth he condemned the love of wealth

The love of wealth results in the accumulation of it...and the failure to remove it to help others.

What I do know: You are not Christlike.

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

The love of wealth results in the accumulation of it...and the failure to remove it to help others.

What I do know: You are not Christlike.

Untrue you can still have wealth as long as you put God first loving your wealth he condemned.
How many poor people give their wealth to others poor people?

 

[Craig]

Untrue you can still have wealth as long as you put God first loving your wealth he condemned.

The passages says that one cannot love both God and money.

 

[Constitutional Sheepdog]

The passages says that one cannot love both God and money.

And? I keep saying that but you ignore it. Nothing against having wealth When wealth becomes wrong is when you start putting it first.
You are ill prepared for this discussion I suggest that you back off until you become a little more informed.