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What a weak dollar really does...

Lukey

Senator
I heard a very disturbing report the other day indicating that what we are really experiencing at this point is a predetermined decision by our current Western Banking Cartel to destroy the Chinese economy using the latent value of the American Pocketbook to do so....

China is even more dependent on oil imports than we are...ergo it has been decided to stab them in the heart by keeping oil prices high
Allowing the Dollar to depreciate puts back pressure on the manufacturing economy in China forcing them to lay off workers, over stock warehouses and change financial forecasts.

The prevailing opinion here is that it will cause China to collapse " Soviet Union Style " within five years.

I am afraid the one thing they may have underestimated is whether or not they may take an aggressive tack on this whole thing and start a real war....which is also desirable from the standpoint of the Western Cartel because articles of War would allow the US to legally expunge the books and declare all debts non-payable to the aggressor.
I think you are absolutely correct. At least part of the reason is to clobber the China economy and force them to stop pegging the Yuan to the Dollar. Another is to keep the economy propped up while Obama implements all his anti-capitalist policies.
 

degsme

Council Member
I am continually amazed at the fact that liberals have to use so many words to prove the the illogical logical and fiction is fact.

in·fla·tion

noun
1.
Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency.

Gold, Oil, Food, Energy and goods and services are all going up in price due to the feds monetary policy and the heavy dumping of additional currency in the markets and economy. Wait until it really hits.
It invariably takes more words to SUBSTANTIATE something than to make it up out of whole cloth.


You make the assertion but offer ZERO evidence of this causality. IN fact the evidence of the causality is contradicted by observable facts. Here are the facts

1) The feds have increased the money supply rather dramatically
2) There is no "accross the board" increase in goods and almost NONE in services (per capita earnings is flat)
3) there are SELECTIVE increases in prices of SOME goods - but that is true EVEN IN A RECESSION
4) the goods that you and Lukey have focussed on are also price driven by other significant factors

a) Gold - Gold is often driven by gold buggery. The way to detect this is to look at Gold prices vs. other commodity prices. If Gold is inflating and others are not - you have Gold Buggery to thank. And that is precisely the chart I showed

b) Gasoline/oil. - Gas is a core part of the WW Economy. When the WORLD WIDE economy comes out of a slump, gas prices go up as demand goes up. More drillng won't help because we are past Peak Oil (look it up).
 

degsme

Council Member
Good god man you noticed that too?

The sky isn't just blue..... it's the refractory values of the electromagnetic spectrum release visible light in the sub violet to infra red frequencies in our stratosphere!
Hmm - and can you demonstrate that "the sky is blue"? Because the latter statement is accurate ALL THE TIME... the former statement depends on
1) time of day
2) weather
3) your definition of blue
4) what part of the sky you are looking at.


Seems to me the former statement is therefore useless for any purpose other than simplistic conversation.
 

degsme

Council Member
I heard a very disturbing report the other day indicating that what we are really experiencing at this point is a predetermined decision by our current Western Banking Cartel to destroy the Chinese economy using the latent value of the American Pocketbook to do so....
you need to stop listening to Glenn Beck on economics..... The logic doesn't hold any more than the economic crash we had was a way of sucking back some of the trade deficit with the PRC and reducing the value of its biggest earners. Its idiotic. literally.
 

degsme

Council Member
Too many words...most of them bullshixt....and plenty of wild ideas here.

So....if you think that the current devaluation of the dollar is not a punishment to those who save.
Want some oats with that straw? Who said it wasn't?

please explain the profits being made in precious metals
I already did.

1) most of the profits are made by the trading companies who's interest is to maximize gold buggery
2) Since it is Gold and Silver and not "precious metals" in general (Platinum, Koltan etc. are not) that are booming, this is Gold Buggery at work.

You might want to try and read what is written rather than calling things names and creating strawmen.
 

degsme

Council Member
I think you are absolutely correct. At least part of the reason is to clobber the China economy and force them to stop pegging the Yuan to the Dollar.
Since The PRC doesn't run on the Yuan - this is absolutely a perfect illustration of the level of understanding you have here.....

I recommend you buy gold... with all your spare cash..
 

degsme

Council Member
STill Waiting Lukey for you to show that

EITHER Price Waterhouse Coopers is a "Marxist Accounting Firm" that is manipulating the data

OR

ADMIT that you were flat out wrong in your assertion that there has been no increase in VC investment rates in the last 2 years.


Which is it? You made a claim - I showed you a detailed report by a prestigious accounting firm that your claim was made up out of thin air..


And since then you have just engaged in ad hominem

is that really the best you got?


c'mon lets hear how PWC is part of either the "Marxist" or "Banking" Cabals.... I can't wait.
 

Lukey

Senator
Um " the value of the currency" gets 480 million. IOW 65% understand your usage is wrong.
BS Degs! "The value of the currency" has a completely different (and more prevalent) conceptual framework. I proved my usage was acceptable and that your criticism was a complete sham. "Decimating" the value of a currency has a widely recognized meaning that conforms with EXACTLY how I used it. You lose!

I warned you that you were making a fool of yourself.
 

degsme

Council Member
BS Degs! "The value of the currency" has a completely different (and more prevalent) conceptual framework. I proved my usage was acceptable and that your criticism was a complete sham. "Decimating" the value of a currency has a widely recognized meaning that conforms with EXACTLY how I used it. You lose!
No you showed there were 170 million hits on The Value of the Currency ...... and a relative association with "decimation".... that just means that "decimation" shows up SOMEWHERE in the relevant page or document. You didn't show that its usage is proper or etymologically informed.


Furthermore I notice that you are continuing to avoid answering the actual questions posed to you such as

Given how the Price Waterhouse Coopers paper eviscerates your claim about how there has been no increase in VC investment (there has been a 22% increase year on year) - What is your arguement about why we should rely on your bogus claims rather than the well researched work of a respected global accounting firm?


Seems to me the person making a fool of themselves is the one avoiding the actual content of the dicussion
 

Lukey

Senator
No you showed there were 170 million hits on The Value of the Currency ...... and a relative association with "decimation".... that just means that "decimation" shows up SOMEWHERE in the relevant page or document. You didn't show that its usage is proper or etymologically informed.


Furthermore I notice that you are continuing to avoid answering the actual questions posed to you such as

Given how the Price Waterhouse Coopers paper eviscerates your claim about how there has been no increase in VC investment (there has been a 22% increase year on year) - What is your arguement about why we should rely on your bogus claims rather than the well researched work of a respected global accounting firm?


Seems to me the person making a fool of themselves is the one avoiding the actual content of the dicussion
I showed it was widely used terminology in the context in which I used it. Even if less than one percent of those links use the word as I did (and over the first few pages almost every link does), it is clearly an established part of the economic journalistic lexicon. You, on the other hand, decided that it (only) means what it meant in the days of the Roman Empire. It's like your tortured parsing of Marxist theory that holds the label can only refer to those who openly advocate "worker ownership of the means of production." That is absurd as there is a whole host of Marxist teaching surrounding how you get there that is not (openly) consistent with "worker ownership of the means of production." And there is a clear history of Marxists working surreptitiously to set up the conditions for the final revolutionary "fundamental transformation" to communism so being "open" about what (exactly) they are advocating is rarely a feature of that particular movement. So just who is playing the fool here? I'd say it is anyone who is buying your lame act.

And I think we all know enough about math to know that a 22% increase from a severely depressed level is hardly a significant development.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/2011-06-13-small-business-start-ups-fewer_n.htm

And I didn't say there was "no increase." I don't believe I even specifically referred to VC investment. I said the incentives to invest in businesses have been diminished (decimated is perhaps a better word) by the progressive (anti-capitalist) policies you champion on here every day:

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-09-02/strategy/30127967_1_small-businesses-home-equity-loan-unemployed-individuals

You are the expert in logic fallacies and errors. So tell me, what is the one where a debater takes one (irrelevant) data point and tries to suggest that it "proves" the opposite of what the trend indicates?
 

degsme

Council Member
I showed it was widely used terminology in the context in which I used it.
No because that's not what the Google Algorithm does to use it that way your search has to put quotes around the phrase http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&gs_nf=1&cp=37&gs_id=40&xhr=t&q="decimation+of+the+value+of+currency"&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq="decimation+of+the+value+of+currency"&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ce76e0bba54de561&biw=1600&bih=1094
And that has ZERO hits.

Even if less than one percent of those links use the word as I did (and over the first few pages almost every link does), it is clearly an established part of the economic journalistic lexicon
No you didn't show that either. To do so you would have had to search scholar.google.com which you did not. Here's what that turns up http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=decimation+of+the+value+of+currency&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=1,48&as_sdtp=on

Notice how NONE of them use your turn of phrase in the abstracts EVEN ON THE FIRST PAGE.

IOW you made up this shiit

It's like your tortured parsing of Marxist theory that holds the label can only refer to those who openly advocate "worker ownership of the means of production."
No that is the clear meaning in economic terms of Marxism... again since we are talking economics here that's all that matters. The rest of the "teachings" are not relevant

And I think we all know enough about math to know that a 22% increase from a severely depressed level is hardly a significant development.
22% year on year growth sorry IS A DRAMATIC increase, particularly when you go from an Year on Year DECREASE. What matters in large systems is the RATE OF CHANGE as well. And in this case the RATE OF CHANGE is much higher than 22%.

YOUR CLAIM was that there was NO SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN EQUITY INVESTMENTS IN NEW BUSINESSES... PWC report shows you are wrong.

BTW, Price Waterhouse Coopers vs. USA TOday as a primary source??? Get a grip. Note also that your USA TODAY citation has nothing to do with what we were discussing... namely whether or not penalizing Short Term Savings - as a monetary policy - INCREASES the incentive for EQUITY INVESTMENT. Equity Investment is not the same as how many entrepreneurial startups there are.

And yes, you said there was no significant investment.

You are the expert in logic fallacies and errors. So tell me, what is the one where a debater takes one (irrelevant) data point and tries to suggest that it "proves" the opposite of what the trend indicates?
You've not shown any "opposite of the trend".. What your two links show is a low level of Entrepreneurial startups. That's very different than whether or not penalizing savings increases the level of investment in equity capital.

Clearly you don't understand the linkage... Most entrepreneurial startups don't make it to the Equity Capital Stage....

So you are arguing "red herring fallacy" here by arguing a point different than the one we were discussing

http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/2011-06-13-small-business-start-ups-fewer_n.htm

And I didn't say there was "no increase." I don't believe I even specifically referred to VC investment. I said the incentives to invest in businesses have been diminished (decimated is perhaps a better word) by the progressive (anti-capitalist) policies you champion on here every day:

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-09-02/strategy/30127967_1_small-businesses-home-equity-loan-unemployed-individuals

You are the expert in logic fallacies and errors. So tell me, what is the one where a debater takes one (irrelevant) data point and tries to suggest that it "proves" the opposite of what the trend indicates?[/QUOTE]
 

Lukey

Senator
No because that's not what the Google Algorithm does to use it that way your search has to put quotes around the phrase http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&gs_nf=1&cp=37&gs_id=40&xhr=t&q="decimation+of+the+value+of+currency"&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq="decimation+of+the+value+of+currency"&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ce76e0bba54de561&biw=1600&bih=1094
And that has ZERO hits.



No you didn't show that either. To do so you would have had to search scholar.google.com which you did not. Here's what that turns up http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=decimation+of+the+value+of+currency&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=1,48&as_sdtp=on

Notice how NONE of them use your turn of phrase in the abstracts EVEN ON THE FIRST PAGE.

IOW you made up this shiit


No that is the clear meaning in economic terms of Marxism... again since we are talking economics here that's all that matters. The rest of the "teachings" are not relevant


22% year on year growth sorry IS A DRAMATIC increase, particularly when you go from an Year on Year DECREASE. What matters in large systems is the RATE OF CHANGE as well. And in this case the RATE OF CHANGE is much higher than 22%.

YOUR CLAIM was that there was NO SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN EQUITY INVESTMENTS IN NEW BUSINESSES... PWC report shows you are wrong.

BTW, Price Waterhouse Coopers vs. USA TOday as a primary source??? Get a grip. Note also that your USA TODAY citation has nothing to do with what we were discussing... namely whether or not penalizing Short Term Savings - as a monetary policy - INCREASES the incentive for EQUITY INVESTMENT. Equity Investment is not the same as how many entrepreneurial startups there are.

And yes, you said there was no significant investment.


You've not shown any "opposite of the trend".. What your two links show is a low level of Entrepreneurial startups. That's very different than whether or not penalizing savings increases the level of investment in equity capital.

Clearly you don't understand the linkage... Most entrepreneurial startups don't make it to the Equity Capital Stage....

So you are arguing "red herring fallacy" here by arguing a point different than the one we were discussing

http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallbusiness/2011-06-13-small-business-start-ups-fewer_n.htm

And I didn't say there was "no increase." I don't believe I even specifically referred to VC investment. I said the incentives to invest in businesses have been diminished (decimated is perhaps a better word) by the progressive (anti-capitalist) policies you champion on here every day:

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-09-02/strategy/30127967_1_small-businesses-home-equity-loan-unemployed-individuals

You are the expert in logic fallacies and errors. So tell me, what is the one where a debater takes one (irrelevant) data point and tries to suggest that it "proves" the opposite of what the trend indicates?
[/QUOTE]


Yet a quick scan of the first page in your link clearly shows the word being repeatedly used in that very context. LOL! Is that the best you have? It's an accepted use of the word - get over it. I didn't make it up.

And, um, no, the rest of Marx's teachings are NOT "irrelevant." As if the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is "irrelevant" to an economic discussion of Marxism. That's plain old BS!

Are you contesting the data reported by USA Today? Or is this just another clumsy attempt to wave away your clear attempt to spin the PWC report into something it isn't - an endorsement of Obamanomics?

"Equity Investment is not the same as how many entrepreneurial startups there are." No, but I didn't say it was. Neither is it how much VC money that is raised.

Besides, I didn't change the subject - you did! I just said bad government economic policy is killing new business investment - and I'd say being at a point where you have a 25 year low in entrepreneurial activity (and are bumping along at decade lows in VC investment) is pretty much going to support my point. So what, exactly, is yours? That Obamanomics is a font of entrepreneurial activity? If so you are going to have to do better than your PWC one year data point to prove that. So have at it...
 

justoffal

Senator
Perhaps....

however I do find the video in the second post to be nothing less than brilliant....it is a simple concept...." Fiddling with the scales "......as he put it.


JO
 
So many "experts" and the world economy still tanked in 2008.

The simple reason? G-R-E-E-D

Smith Barney used to have an ad campaign featuring John Houseman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAMRXqQXemU

The appeal, even amongst all their competition on Wall Street was that they were not into the "get-rich-quick" stuff that came to dominate Wall Street and ultimately be a part of the biggest crash since the Great Depression. Smith Barney was swallowed up and made to disappear and so was their portrayed philosophy.

No, the devil did not make people sign on to pay for homes WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYyy beyond their ability to afford them so those who made commisions on mortgage backed securities and the real estate industry could increase their take (6% of $1 million is a lot more than 6% of $100,000, is the property worth it? You betcha!!! At least until the balloon burst). No, the devil, NOR the government forced any institutions to operate outside of safe and sound business practices. NO, the devil nor the Guvment made banks extend credit WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY beyond where and when they should have because interest fees were real money makers (until the amount of extended credit stretched the lenders too thin)..............they did it on their OWN because they thought they would get-rich-quick. Indeed, some did, right before they also lost a lot or all of it, but hey, they don't need no baby sittin' regulations, they're "responsible," "honest", "ethical" "fair" "law-abiding" "citizens".

Will we go right back at it?

How many times does it take for children to learn something? How many times does one have to burn themselves to learn how to avoid doing it again?

Conspicuous consumption, look-at-me-I'm rich ego boosting ostentaciousness, hedonistic orgies and insecure people that measure human value and worth in material wealth and fame will fade from the scene (until the mess that wrought is forgotten) and will be replaced by a generally more honest, fair, just and humane society that sees human virtues as the highest values, not the size of one's net worth. They will not be selling their souls or their family members for a material wealth and money profit. They will be selling their material wealth so humanity can profit in the pursuit of happiness and respecting one another.

Some may even go back to actually following the beliefs they claim.

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Seven_Deadly_Sins.pdf
 

Lukey

Senator
So many "experts" and the world economy still tanked in 2008.

The simple reason? G-R-E-E-D

Smith Barney used to have an ad campaign featuring John Houseman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAMRXqQXemU

The appeal, even amongst all their competition on Wall Street was that they were not into the "get-rich-quick" stuff that came to dominate Wall Street and ultimately be a part of the biggest crash since the Great Depression. Smith Barney was swallowed up and made to disappear and so was their portrayed philosophy.

No, the devil did not make people sign on to pay for homes WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYyy beyond their ability to afford them so those who made commisions on mortgage backed securities and the real estate industry could increase their take (6% of $1 million is a lot more than 6% of $100,000, is the property worth it? You betcha!!! At least until the balloon burst). No, the devil, NOR the government forced any institutions to operate outside of safe and sound business practices. NO, the devil nor the Guvment made banks extend credit WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY beyond where and when they should have because interest fees were real money makers (until the amount of extended credit stretched the lenders too thin)..............they did it on their OWN because they thought they would get-rich-quick. Indeed, some did, right before they also lost a lot or all of it, but hey, they don't need no baby sittin' regulations, they're "responsible," "honest", "ethical" "fair" "law-abiding" "citizens".

Will we go right back at it?

How many times does it take for children to learn something? How many times does one have to burn themselves to learn how to avoid doing it again?

Conspicuous consumption, look-at-me-I'm rich ego boosting ostentaciousness, hedonistic orgies and insecure people that measure human value and worth in material wealth and fame will fade from the scene (until the mess that wrought is forgotten) and will be replaced by a generally more honest, fair, just and humane society that sees human virtues as the highest values, not the size of one's net worth. They will not be selling their souls or their family members for a material wealth and money profit. They will be selling their material wealth so humanity can profit in the pursuit of happiness and respecting one another.

Some may even go back to actually following the beliefs they claim.

http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Seven_Deadly_Sins.pdf
Well you are partly right. The real problem in 2008 was too much free money (Fed easing). And the reason all the economic activity was (and still is) centered on Wall Street is because all the progressive regulation and anti-capitalist economic policy has made Finance the best place to place one's entreprenurial zeal, as you don't have to employ people, you don't have to pay inflated costs for material and you don't have to worry about environmental issues. It's one of the few places left where a bright capitalist can make a good buck with little risk. Focusing on the symptom (Wall Street excess) without acknowledging the disease (bad progressive anti-capitalist economic policy) is a recipe for continued economic decline. And, as for the left, all they seek is to kill this last bastion of capitalist (or capitalism like) activity without fixing the problems with the US economic system (too much communist central planning and entitlements).
 

degsme

Council Member
Well you are partly right. The real problem in 2008 was too much free money (Fed easing).
No data supports this. No major economist supports this. The REAL problem was deregulation of Wall Street in both major legislative avenues (Gramm-Leach-Bliley, CMFA) and administrative (evisceration of the SEC's investigatory and enforcement arms, waivers for reserve requirements).

Had there been no cross-pollination via CDSes, Lehman would have failed and not endangered the rest of the banking structure.
Had there been no cross-pollination via CDSes, AIG would have had zero impact on Chrysler and GM
Had there been no cross-pollination via CDSes, Wall Street's illness would not have affected banks World Wide

There is an economic law for this sort of cross-pollination contamination - its called Gresham's Law. Essentially Gresham's law says - like most fundamental laws do - something quite common sensical: When you cannot distinguish between something of value and something of fake or bad value - EVERYONE errs on the side of assuming it is bad.

Thus the cross-pollination of CDSes as a way of backing all sorts of composite and derivative securities meant that no one could easily tell what the actual value of any portfolio was.

Had GLB not passed, Investment banks would not have been allowed into the Mortgage securitization market
Had Investment banks not been in the Mortgage Securitization market, there would have been no explosion of NINJA and similar loans (this was not driven by Fed Easing, this was GLB)

Had the Commodities Modernization Futures Act (CMFA) not passed, CDSes would have been regulated like the options they are. Which means that you would not have been able to sell more options than there was actual equity in the markets without those CDSes receiving higher risk ratings due to their "nakedness" (ie lack of connection to underlying commodities). The the CMFA allowed for the cross polination described above.



And to refute Lukey's claim about the Fed Easing being the source of the problem. No that simply isn't true. Had GLB not passed but the Fed had eased - there would still be NO NINJA LOANS in the volumes we saw... why? Because Invetment banks would still have been unable to securitize these high risk mortgages, and would not have been able to give sales incentives to local banks and aggregators to package them.

OTOH had the Fed NOT eased but GLB passed, we still WOULD HAVE SEEN the implosion. And of largely the same magnitude. Because the driving force behind the tranching (sliced up securitization) of the "non-conforming" (which means Unpurchasable by FNMA/FMAC) aka "subprime" loans was not the silly supply side argument of Fed Easing. Had there been no demand for these products, the Fed could have eased till judgment day with no effect. But there was a HUGE DEMAND for these products. The demand was driven by APAC new wealth.

As DefeatObama demonstrated in another thread - the wealthy - particularly the newly wealthy - tend to invest their core assets in "Safe" "Fixed rate of return" investments that then give then a steady and safe level of predictable income that "cannot be touched". The newly minted APAC wealth sought this. And the NY Equity markets being the least corrupt, most stable and most solid were where they went. And this was an influx of a HUGE amount of purchasing dollars that the investment banks sought to satisfy.

Had GLB not passed, they would have been unable to create the tranches they did, and that cash would have gone into TBills. But instead it did not.



all of these are INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIABLE data points. NONE of which Lukey can address except by ad hominem about Marxism and "anti capitalim" and similar clap trap.
 
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