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What Was Lost When Political Economy Became Economics?

Discussion in 'Economics, Business, and Taxes' started by georgephillip, May 17, 2015.

  1. Lukey

    Lukey Senator

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    But, as I pointed out that money is split (fairly evenly) between dems and repubs, so outlawing business donations while allowing union donations (that isn't evenly divided) to continue gives an unfair advantage to democrats, which is exactly what the left wants - so spare me the "we're just trying to get corruption out of the electoral process" meme as I know what's what and won't fall for that ruse.

    As well as the meme that unions are "for the working man." They aren't, unless he's a member of the union. The unions do nothing to increase job opportunities and in fact, produce just the opposite. So if the "working man" is defined as the guy who needs to work for a living, the unions do a pretty piss poor job of "supporting" them.
     
  2. Craig

    Craig Senator Supporting Member

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    Here we go AGAIN. You very first comment is simply bullshit in regard to my comment. I made not one peep about outlawing "business donations" and not banning union donations, yet that's where you begin. Your supply of straw is endless.

    Unfair advantage to Democrats? Such is the choice of the contributors. 59% of 1.6 billion...is far far far larger than 89% of 140 million.
     
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  3. Lukey

    Lukey Senator

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    So if we agree that both should be outlawed, why are you arguing with me?
     
  4. Craig

    Craig Senator Supporting Member

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    Because you say dumb things like the democrats have the advantage...and an "unfair" one at that...based upon the very straw you lay out. You ignore, entirely, the vast advantage in actual money to try and lambast unions because they give to Dems at a rate of 89%.


    Unfair advantage to Democrats? Such is the choice of the contributors. 59% of 1.6 billion...is far far far larger than 89% of 140 million.
     
  5. Lukey

    Lukey Senator

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    The breakdown is fairly even, Craig. There is no logical argument to be made that would suggest outlawing business donations and continuing to allow labor organizations' is "fair:"

    https://www.opensecrets.org/overview/blio.php
     
  6. Craig

    Craig Senator Supporting Member

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    Again with the absurd strawman of outlawing one and not the other. Try and focus for once, would you?

    The money isn't close to even, Lukey...not on that chart, the same one you already linked to...

    Do you need a refresher in arithmetic?

    Business to Republicans:

    $799,717,432 59%.

    59% is not "fairly even". The difference in that one line is 242 million dollars, 100 million MORE than the entire Union contribution.
     
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  7. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    Germany in the five years before the World declared War on it in 1939 --- No Unions and yet the working 'man' had better working conditions than they have ever had before or since( canteens, in factories over a certain size Gyms and swimming pools ect ) a 40 hr week, paid overtime and paid for holidays, some free health care especially for women and children, decent homes for everyone, full employment, no interest, a surety of farms staying in the family and there were thriving businesses - each 'class' equal and working as one, a fair bartering system with other countries. Theirs was an especial and horrendous situation going into 'The Economic Miracle' out of terrible depredation, humiliation, poverty, sky high unemployment, hyperinflation, high child mortality rate and the starvation of millions with even more millions of refugees on their borders to boot.
    Such could not be done now and I do not advocate that it should be tried, we are not German for a start, and live in other times but --- the main thing was that all who bought something to the table, from the intellectual to the road sweeper, worker and management were equally respected and worked in unison for a better and decent country to live in and bring their children up in ---- we are not, not yet, in such dire straights as they were but we are divided, rather than in unison, and all these Unions vs Managements arguments, Black vs White, Woman vs Man will not solve our problems, only deepen them and make us easier to manipulate and Rule over.

    It is a great shame that the German recovery and system cannot be, for reasons of PC, looked at in its own right, apart from the usual powerful vilifying propaganda, because there in are many possible answers to our plight ----- But Gaddafi too was set upon for the same reasons --- as many others have been.

    You and I come from rich countries, so everyone should have a roof and food - mine gave us a cushion for the weakest members, which meant that no one had to worry about becoming ill or even loosing their jobs--- not in the sense that they would be thrown out on to the streets and their families would starve, all that is being pulled away from us now and families are again thrown on the streets and there are people who are literally starving again. In part because 'the cushion' was misused by the 'rich' to cut down on their work force and in part because the Unions demands became so ridiculous they put businesses out of business. Simplifying agin !:)


    And of course the work went else where ---- cheap labour and ect ---and so all of our arguments are in a sense irrelevant, which is in part what Lukey is saying, I think --- Unions, as we know them, are of another time when we did our own work - now small businesses don't stand a chance next to the Global Monsters who have no National affiliations nor love nor care --- I do not see, myself, how we can on any other level than a national one mold our societies into a better balance because we all have our especial character and history and so voice to add --- vive la difference.

    Here the Unions bought us to our knees and Corporate bought us cheap --- both were allowed to get too big and bossy --- it is a balance we need to find some how isn't it?
     
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  8. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    Neoliberal Economics has been the dominant school taught in the US since the time of Reagan, at least.

    "Neoliberalism[1] is a term whose usage and definition have changed over time.[2]

    "Since the 1980s it is a term used primarily by scholars and critics in reference to the resurgence of ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism beginning in the 1970s and 1980s, whose advocates support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity,deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10]

    "Neoliberalism is famously associated with the economic policies introduced by Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom and Ronald Reagan in the United States.[3]"

    [​IMG]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
     
  9. Lukey

    Lukey Senator

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    So what? Ban them both then. If the ratio so favors the business community over workers, leveling the playing field by banning both would hurt business way more than it would unions. Oops, I just disclosed the left's dirty little secret - a level playing field is the last thing you guys want - you want the deck stacked in favor of labor.
     
  10. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    Capitalism already stacked the deck against labor:
    "Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power and all chattel slavery abolished. This I and my European friends are in favor of for slavery is but the owning of labor and carries with it the care of the laborers, while the European plan, led on by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages"
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Engdahl_F_William/American_Oligarchy_GOM.html
     
  11. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    Hitler spent the years between '33-'39 rearming Germany in anticipation of confronting his biggest fear; he was so concerned about class war he actually put his thoughts down on paper:
    "Since the outbreak of the French Revolution, the world has been moving with ever increasing speed toward a new conflict, the most extreme solution of which is called Bolshevism, whose essence and aim, however, are solely the elimination of those strata of mankind which have hitherto provided the leadership and their replacement by worldwide Jewry.

    "No state will be able to withdraw or even remain at a distance from this historical conflict...It is not the aim of this memorandum to prophesy the time when the untenable situation in Europe will become an open crisis. I only want, in these lines, to set down my conviction that this crisis cannot and will not fail to arrive and that it is Germany's duty to secure her own existence by every means in face of this catastrophe, and to protect herself against it, and that from this compulsion there arises a series of conclusions relating to the most important tasks that our people have ever been set.

    "For a victory of Bolshevism over Germany would not lead to a Versailles treaty, but to the final destruction, indeed the annihilation of the German people...I consider it necessary for the Reichstag to pass the following two laws: 1) A law providing the death penalty for economic sabotage and 2) A law making the whole of Jewry liable for all damage inflicted by individual specimens of this community of criminals upon the German economy, and thus upon the German people.[52]"

    I've read US and British banks helped Hitler rearm Germany as a buffer against Russia. All the economic benefits German workers enjoyed during that time were setting up the mass murder of 60 million human beings, which paid off for the bankers pretty well, too,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany
     
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  12. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    I am not sure whether that memo is authentic, we would need her reference ( most Court Historians references are each other, rarely if ever source, most is make believe or a twisting of the truth and false translations) but for sure Europe and Arabia were in danger of being over run by Stalin, at that time, there were so many Communist cells ( renamed by the victors as Partisans and Resistance) in Europe that Stalin expected to just walk it with their help, it is even argued that without Germany rearming somewhat he would have done, I think this is probably true. The Sauds were also fearful of Communism taking hold which is why they spread their Wahhabism all over the Islamic World, to counter the fanaticism with fanaticism --- It is a funny thing, with all these Remembrance Days how we actually do not remember, anything at all, in fact we forget, the truth of it all. They should be renamed Forget-rance Days

    All Wars are Bankers Wars, they instigate them and always back each side, win or loose the debt is always paid, doubled or trebled or quadrupled for the looser to payback with interest.

    But we do not want this thread derailed by WWII do we? Heaven forbid we might attract the 'block head gang'! - that was not my intent - rearming had nothing to do with Germany's recovery, that came later after the recovery and in anticipation of needing to fight The Bear. Recently, deep in the Russian archives, proof that Germany was right about Stalin's intent, has been found by a Russian Historian.

    I was saying that it is a shame that no one dare look at this 'forbidden' economic miracle --- And you won't find it in Wiki.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/GE24Dj01.html


    post, post script --- It seems to me, from an amateurs view and one who is not up on economic systems and ect --- that it is only when our backs are against the wall, when we, as mankind, are in dire straights with the World agin us, that we revert back to making our own currency which bowls around within our respective countries only, using other currencies and or bartering systems outside our borders - In Germany's case it was far too successful for their own health - in Cuba's case, well they have survived and seem to be, though naive and innocent, a happy peoples - two very very different cultures. Iran has also survived and thrived in that way --- What Germany certainly did was build a sound social and physical foundation for all of the people first and out of that came and would have, if allowed, grown into a 'capitalist' system with the safe guards we now so lack. < shrug >

    I am not saying that we should become islands, cut off from one another but as Lukey is advocating free trade within Americas borders so too I advocate, for all of our happiness and stability, free trade with the World at large so that each and every country can become its own ----- for how come those richest in resources are so poverty ridden? We rail against what is happening within our home lands --- look what is being done to others, others who if they owned their riches so could sell them for a fair price and become good decent places to live. I know people who worked in Libya for eg they all said of it ' It would be and nice place to live' - Its wealth was shared with the people - we do not all have Oil but we all have or had something - Germany did not have natural Oil or Gas or Rubber --- it gave us synthetic Oil and Gas and Rubber for eg -
     
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  13. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    Thanks for the link:
    "Hitler's economic miracle
    The Nazis came to power in Germany in 1933, at a time when its economy was in total collapse, with ruinous war-reparation obligations and zero prospects for foreign investment or credit. Yet through an independent monetary policy of sovereign credit and a full-employment public-works program, the Third Reich was able to turn a bankrupt Germany, stripped of overseas colonies it could exploit, into the strongest economy in Europe within four years, even before armament spending began.

    "In fact, German economic recovery preceded and later enabled German rearmament, in contrast to the US economy, where constitutional roadblocks placed by the US Supreme Court on the New Deal delayed economic recovery until US entry to World War II put the US market economy on a war footing.

    " While this observation is not an endorsement for Nazi philosophy, the effectiveness of German economic policy in this period, some of which had been started during the last phase of the Weimar Republic, is undeniable."
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/GE24Dj01.html
     
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  14. The Sage of Main Street

    The Sage of Main Street Governor

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    I'm not using the designated professors' definition of democracy. It cannot co-exist with having any inherited privileges at all. It is an elitist system, but one based on those who are truly elite. That brings widespread prosperity, so by going against the false definition of democracy as equality it has the most democratic outcome.

    Concern about funding is a misunderstanding. The return will be far more than the expense, so it shouldn't be considered an expense at all. For example, in a similar up-front reward of raw talent in sports, the team received 200 times what it had invested in paying the 18-year-old athlete. And it was given to him, not loaned. To him, not to his coaches as in the indentured-servitude educational system.
     
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  15. The Sage of Main Street

    The Sage of Main Street Governor

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    Dear Adolf's "economic miracle" was financed by seizing the wealth of the Jews. When that ran out, he had to conquer other nations to seize more wealth in order to back up his phony economics. Foreign aristocratic guillotine-fodder contributors, such as Dubya's Grandpa, only financed part of his military and public benefits combined economy.

    Anti-Semitism Always Leaves a Yellow Stain. The lowest form of life, deserving of being incinerated at Dresden, are those gutless and slavish worms who won't stand up to their clear and present tyrants and instead invent an escapist fantasy about some secret clique controlling everything behind the scenes.

    Before rising in politics, that typical anti-Semitic scumbag earned his living as a homosexual prostitute in Vienna. Some customer of his from the upper class such worms worship got Dear Adolf into what would become the Nazi Party.
     
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  16. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    No it wasn't, absolutely it wasn't. but that argument is for another thread not here.

    The only point I was trying to make is that a mixture of 'socialism' and 'capitalism' has and could work together --- if the safeguards are in place, because we know the failings of both systems as well as the good of both ---

    ps No, that wasn't why I foolishly bought pre War Germany into it at all, was it? It was about working people then having better working and living conditions than they have ever had before or since without the Unions which by then, as they probably would be still, and as we experienced in England in the '70s, inextricably linked to Communisim ---- so not for the good of the workers but a powerful political tool against the workings of the community.
    Which is not to disrespect their honorable beginnings.

    That our respective Big Govs of today have taken over as the moral judges of us all for all the wrong reasons, certainly not for the greater good but for Corporate does not necessarily mean the antidote is, as you suggest, a form of Communism- I don't presume to know the answers, we are were we have never been before so the answer has to be other than we have ever done before - and we if we were sensible would look at everything there ever has been to find a possible answer not make the same bloody mistakes over and over a bloody gain. Looking at everything includes looking at that which is most feared and thus so vilified by our PtB today, for those who dare ---- which obviously doesn't include you.

    Perhaps we needs look at what is missing today to find answers - two words come to mind instantly, one is hope and the other is aspiration and no I do not mean for things or money or power but to aspire to be ones most excellent as a Zoroastrian might say. And happiness - has the pied piper been and stolen all the children's happiness? Where is that which we were born to enjoy - our joy?

    pps - The future is behind us, following us, we shall never know it --- only History is in front of us, it is all we know, all we have to go by and yet we dare not look at it ---- that is our foolishness.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
  17. The Sage of Main Street

    The Sage of Main Street Governor

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    Preppy Progressives, Just Like the Other False Alternatives Spawned by Your Class

    Your posts reek of "presuming to know the answers," at least in thinking you know all about what you attack.

    Socialism is the upper-class version of democracy, so it should be dismissed as a fraud. One of the clues I have to its failure in postwar Britain was in John Fowles's The Collector. The abducted woman was a frigid, conceited, and ignorant snob. She called herself a Socialist.

    How could the Labour Party have financed Andy Capp? He's averse to labor and should be considered a parasite just as much as the stockholders. In fact, the enemies of democracy imposed this unworkable alternative to their rule just so people would eventually reject it and re-instate Investor Supremacy. It's an typical trick of such nasty and sneaky people.
     
  18. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    My class? Which pray, is my class - do you presume?

    OK then, not only do I not presume not to know the answers, I downright do not know the answers ---

    And perhaps if you shout just a little bit louder the two people in Britain who do not realize that Labour is a swizz, and are completely disenchanted with all Party Politics, knowing them all to be the same, will hear you.

    We are in a place we have never been before, needing remedies we have never used before and having only the past to form any judgments on it would perhaps not be a bad idea to re-look at all those that have been tried before - and take the best of them all.

    Any form of 'welfare' state only worked well in times of full time employment without which it cannot sustain its self - full employment was best obtained in an atmosphere of free trade and enterprise - diversity.

    In other words, that which is truly for the greater good must also be that which is for the individual good, the only way man kind has survived is by bartering so that each individual unit could eat, drink be clothed and sheltered - civilizations came about as we learned to sustain ourselves, the whole, in one place -- ect

    Ps Yes I agree about the sneakiness of the puppet masters and mmmm I think I have that book somewhere - In fact I was looking at it yesterday, whilst reorganizing 'the library'.

    pps - It is an Inherent Right, as 'freemen' to conduct commerce --- outside citizenship, which is not of living persons but of given names.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  19. georgephillip

    georgephillip Governor

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    I agree we are in a place we've never been before, so maybe it's time to try something new?
    "An unconditional basic income (also called basic income, basic income guarantee,universal basic income, universal demogrant,[1] or citizen’s income) is a form ofsocial security system[2] in which all citizens or residents of a country regularly receive an unconditional sum of money, either from a government or some other public institution, in addition to any income received from elsewhere.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
    Perhaps much of "Western Civilization" has reached the point where machines have freed the population from the need to toil? If so, income redistribution on the scale required to fund Basic Income would accomplish the the greatest good for the greatest number.
     
  20. Queen Titania

    Queen Titania Senator

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    Too sleepy to answer you now pet --- see you in a day or two xxx
     
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