When is a baby considered a living human being?

[BobbyT]

Obviously, you didn't read my post or his the link I gave you. I'll try again.
Pope Francis did not teach anything new or different than what the Church has taught. He also used the opportunity to ONCE AGAIN, repeat the teaching that artificial birth control is sinful in our faith, and why. I"m sorry, Bobby. I know the left is taking this one hard, but no, the pope doesn't share your views on BC and abortion. Leftist media and "progressive Catholics" started salivating the minute he was elected and at some point in those illinformed circles it just became a given-in their minds- that he would change teaching on these things, and the celebration kind of began early. It was the direct result of media sources lazily feeding off of each other instead of actually checking the quotes they found in each others' work. Now most are trying to backtrack, but some, like you, will keep repeating the same lie about our pope. Eventually, he'll be villified for not fulfilling the predictions these people made. And I'm sure they'll be some talk about "flip-flopping" to placate "conservative Catholics".

It has never been a teaching in our Church that A)a man should have sex with his wife whenever he wanted to if she didn't want to or B)that a wife should give in to sex whenever her husband wanted her to if she didn't want to. Quite the opposite is true. But for the sake of your argument you must keep assuming that. Doesn't make it true. I don't know what you do for a living. But surely, in your line of work, as in every vocation, there has been an incompetent boob who has made grave errors and poor judgements and stood behind them, like this priest in IReland that you're holding up. But incompetence doesn't make the mistake the truth. Some fool's error shouldn't be the teaching moment about your entire profession. You wouldn't stand for it. Yet you insist on that tack here, when the tack suits your talking points.

Funny thing that you say "women are important too", after you've made the case for why women should be stuffed with hormones and bits of plastic so that we can be 'sex-ready' everyday of the month. In our faith, women are too precious for that. And men are expected to respect the roles God bestowed on us, be grateful for us, wonderful to us, protective of us, and love us enough to be willing to make small sacrifices WITH us rather than medicate us into useful objects.

In your faith women are too precious to be "sex ready" whenever they want to have sex? How about the woman's feelings about when she wants to be "sex ready"? Is she too "precious" to make this decision for herself?

My example of the Irish woman was not a blanket statement about Catholicism, it was a single example of a particular priest, and a very negative consequence to a woman who was "advised" by that priest. As to the Pope, I didn't say anything about artificial birth control, I said "birth control" as in Catholics not having to have large families and in fact it being irresponsible to do so.

 

[fairsheet]

What teaching are you referring to?

While I wait for you to get back to me on that, I'll ask you. Isn't that what you did, though, when you made a judgment about how prolifers go about this issue? The fact that you didn't use the words "your side" or "the other side" doesn't change what you said.

I made no such judgment as to your coercive/legal approach. I simply suggested that the root of the issue, respect for human life, is separate from yours or anyone else's human approach to the issue.

I say I respect human life and want to address the issue just as much as you do. You tell me that I don't respect human life the way you do, simply because I'm not down with your approach to the question. That's counterproductive, in that it rarely helps a cause to turn away potential "fellow travelers". Millions of Americans are convinced that the "pro-life" movement is less about human life and more about seizing political advantage. They have point.

 

[gigi]

What don't you understand? Is it "point of a sword"? "Point of a sword" is a euphemism for "by force" - in this case, "civil law".

In your earlier post on this thread you position was that we just haven't all come to the realization that abortion is this taking of human life, but prolifers are pushing that by force. "the end of a sword". Imagine if everyone took your point of view on issues like slavery and segregation and the right of parents to beat their children severely and send them to work in deplorable conditions where they were used and abused for hours and hours per day? Why don't we just reverse all the rulings against these horrible heinous acts and you know, just wait around for eveyrbody to get on the same page. After all, not everyone agreed with the people who knew these things were wrong.

 

[gigi]

I made no such judgment as to your coercive/legal approach. I simply suggested that the root of the issue, respect for human life, is separate from yours or anyone else's human approach to the issue.

I say I respect human life and want to address the issue just as much as you do. You tell me that I don't respect human life the way you do, simply because I'm not down with your approach to the question. That's counterproductive, in that it rarely helps a cause to turn away potential "fellow travelers". Millions of Americans are convinced that the "pro-life" movement is less about human life and more about seizing political advantage. They have point.

Millions of Americans are convinced a number of things about the "prolife" movement because of lies they're told about the prolife movement. You know the lies. I don't need to list them for you. You've heard them and read them.

 

[JuliefromOhio]

In your faith women are too precious to be "sex ready" whenever they want to have sex? How about the woman's feelings about when she wants to be "sex ready"? Is she too "precious" to make this decision for herself?

My example of the Irish woman was not a blanket statement about Catholicism, it was a single example of a particular priest, and a very negative consequence to a woman who was "advised" by that priest. As to the Pope, I didn't say anything about artificial birth control, I said "birth control" as in Catholics not having to have large families and in fact it being irresponsible to do so.

"sex ready?" cue long-acting Cialis commercials.

 

[Queen Titania]

That's where you're wrong. We "don't like abortion" because it is about the destruction of human life. Vulnerable, helpless, human life. We argue against it for that reason.

You are arguing in favour of denying all women their Inherent Rights - You are denying that a freeborn woman is sovereign.

 

[fairsheet]

Millions of Americans are convinced a number of things about the "prolife" movement because of lies they're told about the prolife movement. You know the lies. I don't need to list them for you. You've heard them and read them.

You should maybe consider taking in my gist and dealing with it on your own, as opposed to signing back on twice, to offer up an exemplar of how right I am.

 

[fairsheet]

In your earlier post on this thread you position was that we just haven't all come to the realization that abortion is this taking of human life, but prolifers are pushing that by force. "the end of a sword". Imagine if everyone took your point of view on issues like slavery and segregation and the right of parents to beat their children severely and send them to work in deplorable conditions where they were used and abused for hours and hours per day? Why don't we just reverse all the rulings against these horrible heinous acts and you know, just wait around for eveyrbody to get on the same page. After all, not everyone agreed with the people who knew these things were wrong.

Baloney. Imagine the fact of cigarette smoking being legal. Cigarette smoking is bad news for just about anyone who indulges themselves....so, is it a "no brainer" that the only righteous way of confronting cigarette smoking is to make it illegal?

 

[gigi]

You are arguing in favour of denying all women their Inherent Rights - You are denying that a freeborn woman is sovereign.

Their inherent rights to what? Kill their children?
What about their children's "inherent" right to remain alive?

 

[gigi]

Baloney. Imagine the fact of cigarette smoking being legal. Cigarette smoking is bad news for just about anyone who indulges themselves....so, is it a "no brainer" that the only righteous way of confronting cigarette smoking is to make it illegal?

People who smoke make a choice for THEMSELVES to do something that could eventually kill them.
People who make the choice to have an abortion choose something that will kill another human being.


I don't know if it's the case by you, but in many places in the country, laws and ordinances are in effect to prohibit smoking in public places, even outside. This is so that non-smokers are not subject to the unpleasant smells and smoke and injury linked to second hand smoke. But imagine that...Adults who have every right to make decisions about their OWN bodies are curtailed when their choices might harm another body. What a concept!!

57 million innocent, helpless human beings have been killed by abortion in this country since 1973, fairsheet. We can keep talking to people and encouraging them and educating them. And we will. But meanwhile, for the sake of the 3000 that will die by abortion tomorrow, and the next day, and the next, we have to turn to every lawful means to try and stop this carnage.

 

[gigi]

You should maybe consider taking in my gist and dealing with it on your own, as opposed to signing back on twice, to offer up an exemplar of how right I am.

I'm pretty sure I could post a chicken recipe and you'd hold it up as an example of how right you were.

 

[fairsheet]

People who smoke make a choice for THEMSELVES to do something that could eventually kill them.
People who make the choice to have an abortion choose something that will kill another human being.


I don't know if it's the case by you, but in many places in the country, laws and ordinances are in effect to prohibit smoking in public places, even outside. This is so that non-smokers are not subject to the unpleasant smells and smoke and injury linked to second hand smoke. But imagine that...Adults who have every right to make decisions about their OWN bodies are curtailed when their choices might harm another body. What a concept!!

57 million innocent, helpless human beings have been killed by abortion in this country since 1973, fairsheet. We can keep talking to people and encouraging them and educating them. And we will. But meanwhile, for the sake of the 3000 that will die by abortion tomorrow, and the next day, and the next, we have to turn to every lawful means to try and stop this carnage.

Your theory and perhaps mine, that a fetus represents invaluable "human life", isn't shared by all. That being the case, you're founding yourself on a premise that's false to all too many Americans.

IMHO, God is disappointed at the fact of so many otherwise righteous people, convincing themselves that the fetus itself, must be protected at all costs. What God wants to see, is that humanity has evolved itself to a point where ALL human life is considered invaluable - from the greater, a living towheaded child, to the lesser, a fetus.

 

[JuliefromOhio]

Your theory and perhaps mine, that a fetus represents invaluable "human life", isn't shared by all. That being the case, you're founding yourself on a premise that's false to all too many Americans.

IMHO, God is disappointed at the fact of so many otherwise righteous people, convincing themselves that the fetus itself, must be protected at all costs. What God wants to see, is that humanity has evolved itself to a point where ALL human life is considered invaluable - from the greater, a living towheaded child, to the lesser, a fetus.

let's do the numbers. women have 500,000 ova. that's a lot of wasted "potential' for human life. then we have the reality that half of all fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted.

I'm more concerned about the numbers of our children starving or dying of disease or killed in wars or how many adults are put to death by the state or how many adults are killed by their fellow man out of anger and rage.

 

[fairsheet]

let's do the numbers. women have 500,000 ova. that's a lot of wasted "potential' for human life. then we have the reality that half of all fertilized eggs are spontaneously aborted.

I'm more concerned about the numbers of our children starving or dying of disease or killed in wars or how many adults are put to death by the state or how many adults are killed by their fellow man out of anger and rage.

You get it. IF humanity came to a point where all of humanity considered the fetus as being priceless, then humanity would've already come to consider all "born" life, as priceless.