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Where do "religious rights" end?

I hear the rumbles of conservatives on TV telling people that they don't have to follow our laws if they conflict with their religion. Where do these religious rights end and our constitutional rights begin? And don't try to tell me about the First Amendment. No where in the First Amendment does it state that you can use your religion as a basis for discrimination. I know that the conservatives are opening up Pandora's box and once out, will have trouble putting the problems back into the box. My first thought is that before the civil rights movements and even since that time, many whites used their "White Christian religion" as the basis for segregation. Will that continue? What about Jews, Christians and Muslims, will they be allowed to discriminate in employment due to religious differences. Will we go back to allowing people to keep people from the different races from obtainling licenses due to religious beliefs of those in charge of providing such licenses? I guess I could go on and on with examples, but once you allow people to discriminate based on whatever religious beliefs they hold, you allow any kind of discrimination. Religion is a personal belief and everyone sees their religion differently. Justify discrimination against gays today and it could be Catholics, blacks and Jews that are discriminated against tomorrow. I lived in Kentucky in the early 50's as a child and learned about discrimination first hand. Gangs of Protestant kids used to chase me and try to beat me up on the way to and from the Catholic school I attended. I still bear the scar where one of them broke a Coke bottle on my head and hear their jeers calling me Catlicker. I learned early to hate any kind of discrimination.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
No where in the First Amendment does it state that you can use your religion as a basis for discrimination.
It says you don't have to go out of your way to support something you don't agree with with an act of commission.

that before the civil rights movements and even since that time, many whites used their "White Christian religion" as the basis for segregation. Will that continue?
What is a "White Christian Religion"?

Because Christianity is global amongst all races.

What about Jews, Christians and Muslims, will they be allowed to discriminate in employment due to religious differences.
No, that would be an act of omission.
Will we go back to allowing people to keep people from the different races from obtainling licenses due to religious beliefs of those in charge of providing such licenses?
No, that would also be an act of omission.
I guess I could go on and on with examples, but once you allow people to discriminate based on whatever religious beliefs they hold, you allow any kind of discrimination. Religion is a personal belief and everyone sees their religion differently. Justify discrimination against gays today and it could be Catholics, blacks and Jews that are discriminated against tomorrow.
Let me guess.. you want all religious people to shut up and go away? Sorry, but the base argument of gay marriage isn't even a religious one. It's about defining male and female, and what the preferred family unit of a society is, and what has proven results.

I lived in Kentucky in the early 50's as a child and learned about discrimination first hand.
I've seen plenty of discrimination in my day as well.
Gangs of Protestant kids used to chase me and try to beat me up on the way to and from the Catholic school I attended. I still bear the scar where one of them broke a Coke bottle on my head and hear their jeers calling me Catlicker.
Sounds like some pretty mild to moderate stuff as far as kids go. I'd guess that you've lived a pretty sheltered life, at least compared to what I grew up with, if that instance bothers you still to this day so much.

My two cents on that one instance? Get some thicker skin and forget about it.
I learned early to hate any kind of discrimination.
You're not special. Nearly all people don't like discrimination. The problem is defining what it is, or using the word as a weapon.
 

Jen

Senator
I hear the rumbles of conservatives on TV telling people that they don't have to follow our laws if they conflict with their religion. Where do these religious rights end and our constitutional rights begin? And don't try to tell me about the First Amendment. No where in the First Amendment does it state that you can use your religion as a basis for discrimination. I know that the conservatives are opening up Pandora's box and once out, will have trouble putting the problems back into the box. My first thought is that before the civil rights movements and even since that time, many whites used their "White Christian religion" as the basis for segregation. Will that continue? What about Jews, Christians and Muslims, will they be allowed to discriminate in employment due to religious differences. Will we go back to allowing people to keep people from the different races from obtainling licenses due to religious beliefs of those in charge of providing such licenses? I guess I could go on and on with examples, but once you allow people to discriminate based on whatever religious beliefs they hold, you allow any kind of discrimination. Religion is a personal belief and everyone sees their religion differently. Justify discrimination against gays today and it could be Catholics, blacks and Jews that are discriminated against tomorrow. I lived in Kentucky in the early 50's as a child and learned about discrimination first hand. Gangs of Protestant kids used to chase me and try to beat me up on the way to and from the Catholic school I attended. I still bear the scar where one of them broke a Coke bottle on my head and hear their jeers calling me Catlicker. I learned early to hate any kind of discrimination.
Well let's see.
If you don't agree with gay marriage, then you do not have to marry someone of your same sex.

Any person has the right to not agree with gay marriage. And any person has the right to say they don't agree with gay marriage if they want to say that. For you to say they don't have that right makes YOU a bigot.

No one has the right to harass anyone or break a coke bottle over anyone's head or beat anyone up. If you beat up someone that doesn't agree with gay marriage.........you are wrong to do it and assault charges are in order. If someone beats you up because you are in a gay marriage, they are wrong and assault charges are in order.

I think it's simple.
But I expect that anyone against gay marriage is in for a lot of bigotry from the Left. It's what the Left does.
 

Craig

Senator
Supporting Member
But I expect that anyone against gay marriage is in for a lot of bigotry from the Left. It's what the Left does.
Is being against gay marriage bigotry? Why does the initial intolerance get a pass?
 
It says you don't have to go out of your way to support something you don't agree with with an act of commission.


What is a "White Christian Religion"?

Because Christianity is global amongst all races.


No, that would be an act of omission.

No, that would also be an act of omission.


Let me guess.. you want all religious people to shut up and go away? Sorry, but the base argument of gay marriage isn't even a religious one. It's about defining male and female, and what the preferred family unit of a society is, and what has proven results.


I've seen plenty of discrimination in my day as well.

Sounds like some pretty mild to moderate stuff as far as kids go. I'd guess that you've lived a pretty sheltered life, at least compared to what I grew up with, if that instance bothers you still to this day so much.

My two cents on that one instance? Get some thicker skin and forget about it.


You're not special. Nearly all people don't like discrimination. The problem is defining what it is, or using the word as a weapon.
I lived down south in my youth and the KKK said that their White Christian religion allowed them to discriminate against blacks, who were lesser beings. They did then, and still many today think that blacks can not be true Christians, only whites.
 

Jets

Conservative Pragmatist
I'm not a fan of gay marriage, but I'm not going to go out and protest against it or throw a fit that it is law. If someone wants to label someone a bigot for that POV, that says more about that person throwing flame than it does about anyone else.

IMHO
 
It says you don't have to go out of your way to support something you don't agree with with an act of commission.


What is a "White Christian Religion"?

Because Christianity is global amongst all races.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/02/26/3333161/religious-liberty-racist-anti-gay/

No, that would be an act of omission.

No, that would also be an act of omission.


Let me guess.. you want all religious people to shut up and go away? Sorry, but the base argument of gay marriage isn't even a religious one. It's about defining male and female, and what the preferred family unit of a society is, and what has proven results.


I've seen plenty of discrimination in my day as well.

Sounds like some pretty mild to moderate stuff as far as kids go. I'd guess that you've lived a pretty sheltered life, at least compared to what I grew up with, if that instance bothers you still to this day so much.

My two cents on that one instance? Get some thicker skin and forget about it.


You're not special. Nearly all people don't like discrimination. The problem is defining what it is, or using the word as a weapon.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/02/26/3333161/religious-liberty-racist-anti-gay/

This is what I am talking about.
 
Well let's see.
If you don't agree with gay marriage, then you do not have to marry someone of your same sex.

Any person has the right to not agree with gay marriage. And any person has the right to say they don't agree with gay marriage if they want to say that. For you to say they don't have that right makes YOU a bigot.

No one has the right to harass anyone or break a coke bottle over anyone's head or beat anyone up. If you beat up someone that doesn't agree with gay marriage.........you are wrong to do it and assault charges are in order. If someone beats you up because you are in a gay marriage, they are wrong and assault charges are in order.

I think it's simple.
But I expect that anyone against gay marriage is in for a lot of bigotry from the Left. It's what the Left does.
You can believe what you want and have the religious beliefs you wish, but the law is the law and you can't use your beliefs to take away someone's rights under our constitution. Just as I can't take away the right of you to own guns, even if I am a CO, which I am not, neither can you use your religious beliefs to keep someone from using their rights, even if you are in a position to do so. Any public employee who does so, should be fired. Where would that end. Could a postal employee refuse to deliver mail to a Muslim or Jewish family? Could a federal employee refuse to do a persons tax return if they know them to be gay? I mean, once you allow public employees to decide by their religion who they wish to serve and not serve, you have opened the Pandora's Box.
 

connieb

Senator
I hear the rumbles of conservatives on TV telling people that they don't have to follow our laws if they conflict with their religion. Where do these religious rights end and our constitutional rights begin? And don't try to tell me about the First Amendment. No where in the First Amendment does it state that you can use your religion as a basis for discrimination. I know that the conservatives are opening up Pandora's box and once out, will have trouble putting the problems back into the box. My first thought is that before the civil rights movements and even since that time, many whites used their "White Christian religion" as the basis for segregation. Will that continue? What about Jews, Christians and Muslims, will they be allowed to discriminate in employment due to religious differences. Will we go back to allowing people to keep people from the different races from obtainling licenses due to religious beliefs of those in charge of providing such licenses? I guess I could go on and on with examples, but once you allow people to discriminate based on whatever religious beliefs they hold, you allow any kind of discrimination. Religion is a personal belief and everyone sees their religion differently. Justify discrimination against gays today and it could be Catholics, blacks and Jews that are discriminated against tomorrow. I lived in Kentucky in the early 50's as a child and learned about discrimination first hand. Gangs of Protestant kids used to chase me and try to beat me up on the way to and from the Catholic school I attended. I still bear the scar where one of them broke a Coke bottle on my head and hear their jeers calling me Catlicker. I learned early to hate any kind of discrimination.

Clearly you are confused.. Our right to freely practice our religion - IS a constitutional right. It is the same and equal to all our constitutional rights.

therefore, it ends at compelling someone to do something, in violation of their faith.

We do not get to decide if their faith has a good enough reason, if they are otherwise a good enough subscriber to that faith to be considered faithful enough, etc.

What is NOT a constitutional right, is a right to the services or labors of others.

So, where the rights end, is forcing someone to provide to you a service, that you don't want to provide them on the basis of your faith. Discrimination - in the forms of taunting, fighting, or assualting are wrong. No matter who is doing them for what reason. They do violate another person's rights because we all have the right to move about unmolested. That is completely different than compelling a person to act in opposite to their beliefs, and compelling them to violate their freedom of association.

connie
 
Clearly you are confused.. Our right to freely practice our religion - IS a constitutional right. It is the same and equal to all our constitutional rights.

therefore, it ends at compelling someone to do something, in violation of their faith.

We do not get to decide if their faith has a good enough reason, if they are otherwise a good enough subscriber to that faith to be considered faithful enough, etc.

What is NOT a constitutional right, is a right to the services or labors of others.

So, where the rights end, is forcing someone to provide to you a service, that you don't want to provide them on the basis of your faith. Discrimination - in the forms of taunting, fighting, or assualting are wrong. No matter who is doing them for what reason. They do violate another person's rights because we all have the right to move about unmolested. That is completely different than compelling a person to act in opposite to their beliefs, and compelling them to violate their freedom of association.

connie
So you are saying that any public employee can refuse to do any part of their job that they feel is against their religious beliefs. I would think that if you take a job as a public employee, you accept all of what that job entails. I would not think that in taking such a job you can pick and choose what you would do. And if that is so, even private employees would have the same right to pick and choose what they will and won't do without losing their jobs, as in your opinion, their religious beliefs are protected by the First Amendment. Seems to me that what you believe is certainly opening the Pandora's Box of problems I have been talking about. And you are not expecting a service, you are expecting to use your right as approved by SCOTUS to get and use a marriage license. If a government employee refuses to fulfill their obligation to provide such a license, they should be fired.
 
even if I didn't support gay marriage (i do) i would still check the box for following the law. Your right to practice religion ends when it contravenes a law.

that said, even as a secular person, i am baffled that religious kids in public schools cannot observe a moment of silence before taking a test, or beginning an athletic contest.

the atheists have tried to claim that virtually any expression faith within their hearing or field of view is offensive.

i'm not buying it.
 

Dawg

President
Supporting Member
I hear the rumbles of conservatives on TV telling people that they don't have to follow our laws if they conflict with their religion. Where do these religious rights end and our constitutional rights begin? And don't try to tell me about the First Amendment. No where in the First Amendment does it state that you can use your religion as a basis for discrimination. I know that the conservatives are opening up Pandora's box and once out, will have trouble putting the problems back into the box. My first thought is that before the civil rights movements and even since that time, many whites used their "White Christian religion" as the basis for segregation. Will that continue? What about Jews, Christians and Muslims, will they be allowed to discriminate in employment due to religious differences. Will we go back to allowing people to keep people from the different races from obtainling licenses due to religious beliefs of those in charge of providing such licenses? I guess I could go on and on with examples, but once you allow people to discriminate based on whatever religious beliefs they hold, you allow any kind of discrimination. Religion is a personal belief and everyone sees their religion differently. Justify discrimination against gays today and it could be Catholics, blacks and Jews that are discriminated against tomorrow. I lived in Kentucky in the early 50's as a child and learned about discrimination first hand. Gangs of Protestant kids used to chase me and try to beat me up on the way to and from the Catholic school I attended. I still bear the scar where one of them broke a Coke bottle on my head and hear their jeers calling me Catlicker. I learned early to hate any kind of discrimination.
on earth at the Grave yard
hey, it's all good

http://freepatriotpost.com/scotus-gay-marriage-decision-makes-conceal-carry-legal-in-all-50-states/
 

Dawg

President
Supporting Member
I lived down south in my youth and the KKK said that their White Christian religion allowed them to discriminate against blacks, who were lesser beings. They did then, and still many today think that blacks can not be true Christians, only whites.
I've lived in the South for 64 years and have NEVER heard that said, maybe you should have been hangin' out with the KKK.

Only time I have ever been shot it was by the KKK and I'm white................they ambushed us ann didn't realize they just set there lil' world on fire.

BTW: so glad you moved way up North LiberalinWis
 
I lived down south in my youth and the KKK said that their White Christian religion allowed them to discriminate against blacks, who were lesser beings. They did then, and still many today think that blacks can not be true Christians, only whites.
well, the bible and the koran do endorse things like slavery, discrimination against unbelievers, extra-judicial forms of punishment and behavior control.

the problem is that we tend to look the other way when islamists do these things, under the excuse of cultural relativism.
 

Drumcollie

* See DC's list of Kook posters*
I hear the rumbles of conservatives on TV telling people that they don't have to follow our laws if they conflict with their religion. Where do these religious rights end and our constitutional rights begin? And don't try to tell me about the First Amendment. No where in the First Amendment does it state that you can use your religion as a basis for discrimination. I know that the conservatives are opening up Pandora's box and once out, will have trouble putting the problems back into the box. My first thought is that before the civil rights movements and even since that time, many whites used their "White Christian religion" as the basis for segregation. Will that continue? What about Jews, Christians and Muslims, will they be allowed to discriminate in employment due to religious differences. Will we go back to allowing people to keep people from the different races from obtainling licenses due to religious beliefs of those in charge of providing such licenses? I guess I could go on and on with examples, but once you allow people to discriminate based on whatever religious beliefs they hold, you allow any kind of discrimination. Religion is a personal belief and everyone sees their religion differently. Justify discrimination against gays today and it could be Catholics, blacks and Jews that are discriminated against tomorrow. I lived in Kentucky in the early 50's as a child and learned about discrimination first hand. Gangs of Protestant kids used to chase me and try to beat me up on the way to and from the Catholic school I attended. I still bear the scar where one of them broke a Coke bottle on my head and hear their jeers calling me Catlicker. I learned early to hate any kind of discrimination.
My dad beat up a protestant kid. We are even.
 
even if I didn't support gay marriage (i do) i would still check the box for following the law. Your right to practice religion ends when it contravenes a law.

that said, even as a secular person, i am baffled that religious kids in public schools cannot observe a moment of silence before taking a test, or beginning an athletic contest.

the atheists have tried to claim that virtually any expression faith within their hearing or field of view is offensive.

i'm not buying it.
I am a practicing Catholic and a trustee of my church, so I am not an atheist. I agree that some people go too far with separation of church and state, but like the gun lobby, they always worry about the slippery slope theory.
I often wonder though if you are a Christian and believe God made us they way we are, then why do we get upset about Gays. I know many people think it is a choice, but many experts seem to think that gays are born and not made. I guess if you believe that God made people gay, then who are we to question God. I often wonder about people who say being gay is a choice, why would anyone would want all the problems that go along with being gay.
 
well, the bible and the koran do endorse things like slavery, discrimination against unbelievers, extra-judicial forms of punishment and behavior control.

the problem is that we tend to look the other way when islamists do these things, under the excuse of cultural relativism.
I think if you look at history as a whole and not just the last 50-100 years, Christians haven't always been the best of people.
 

Boca

Governor
You can believe what you want and have the religious beliefs you wish, but the law is the law and you can't use your beliefs to take away someone's rights under our constitution.
You can't use a law to stifle anyone's beliefs.

And exactly what constitutional rights are you talking about that my beliefs will deprive you of?
 
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Caroljo

Senator
That's right..........NO! I have a right to be against gay marriage. That's my belief. But I don't get what the problem with that is as long as I don't go out petitioning and trying to stop them from marrying. I have my belief, I have the right to believe what I want. I'm not going to cause problems for others that think differently. If I started my own small business I would serve gays with no problem. But, depending on the type of business, if they came to me to help provide my service for their wedding, I would have to deny them and ask them to go someplace else.

Providing a service for individuals purchasing your product is not the same as asking the business to support them by attending their wedding and providing your service. They want us to accept their choice, and I'm ok with that. But don't as ME to go against my belief and help you with your wedding. My beliefs need to be honored as much as theirs. There's always someone out there that will help them. Don't ask someone you KNOW does not support what you're doing. The ONLY reason someone would do that is to cause problems for the business. No other reason.
 
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