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Where in the Bible did Francis find firing employees is a "grave sin"

C

Capitalist

Guest
We're talking about a character in the book. Your question was whether that character was really the way he was portrayed in the book or whether he was just perceived that way by the book's writers, who invented the character. That is, obviously, a nonsense question.



No, it requires no faith at all. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in God. Lack of belief, when evidence is lacking, doesn't require faith. It just requires being honest about the lack of any evidence. If evidence were to emerge, I'd change my view, whereas in your case it doesn't matter how long evidence refuses to emerge, your views will remain fixed, because they're a matter of faith.

Put it this way: Do you believe that there's an invisible, intangible elf who controls your actions? If you say, "no" does that require faith? Of course not. There's just no evidence of it, so your default position will be that it doesn't exist, since it's a claim that's dramatically at odds with anything we've witnessed.



Yes, and man poured jealousy and wrath into Yahweh. Yahweh is made in man's image, just like most of the other gods man has invented over the years.



Of course not. No one thing ever equals another thing, or we'd only be talking about a single thing, obviously. Polytheism and monotheism are two of the several different major varieties of mythology.



No. You've admitted that's what you do. You start with the presumption that there's a God and he's good. I do not. I look to the evidence and draw conclusions from it.



Are there real flying dragons living in Central Park? A moron might start with the presumption that there are, and then "reason" from that various things, like that the dragons are invisible and intangible, and that's why we never see any evidence of them. But, it would make more sense to look for the evidence and then draw conclusions from that.

There are things people could propose that I'd be agnostic about, because while I have no evidence, the claim is of a type where I wouldn't necessarily expect to have seen evidence, and where the nature of the claim is such that it's not at odds with the types of things we have been able to find evidence for. For example, is there a species of monkey that lives in the Amazon and has not yet been discovered by science? I don't know. I'm agnostic on that. There's no evidence of it, but there wouldn't necessarily be evidence if it were true, since that area is remote and densely forested, such that we haven't done a very thorough job of surveying it, and even something as large as a monkey could have evaded us. We've seen how undiscovered large fauna can turn up in such places, so it's not an inherently improbable claim, and we know there's nothing fantastical about the concept of a monkey living in the Amazon. So, I have no reason to take a stance on it one way or the other. That's agnosticism. When it comes to the flying dragons of Central Park, though, the claim is inherently implausible enough that the default assumption should be that it's untrue, until such time as evidence emerges in favor of it. Claims about God, gods, fairies, gnomes, griffons, etc., are like that.

Theists get that in nearly every case. Ask them if they think there are flying dragons living in Central Park and they'll say they don't. Ask them if they believe there's a teapot orbiting the Sun somewhere between Earth and Mars and they'll say no. Ask them if they think Kim Jong Il went 38 under par his first time ever golfing and they'll chuckle in disbelief. Ask them if they believe various ancient myths of gods are true and they'll say they don't.... with the single, arbitrary exception of the one set of myths that they have faith in (which is nearly always the set of myths they were instructed to believe when they were too young to think rationally, by people they trusted). Where theists and atheists differ is that 100% of the time atheists think the same sound way theists think 99.999% of the time. We are simply being consistent in sticking to the way of thinking you consider correct in NEARLY every instance.

That's what makes theist outrage so funny. They know that thinking the way we do doesn't require faith, because they think the way we do almost all the time. They KNOW that assuming Kim Jong Il didn't really go 38 under par doesn't require a leap of faith. Yet when they make similarly outlandish claims, with a similar absence of any evidence, but of a sort they have an emotional commitment to, it makes them very angry when atheists just do what the theists would do in absolutely any other context and dismiss it as untrue.



No human is ever entirely devoid of those things. And I came to the Bible with certain prejudices -- I'd been raised Christian, and so like most such people, I started with prejudices in favor of the idea that there was a God and that the Bible told us certain truths about Him. But, those prejudices were weaker in me than in most Christians, and didn't cripple the functioning of my reason. So I was able to evolve beyond them.



I made no such admission. Reread.
Does your daughter love you? Of course.

Prove it. Show me the evidence. You can't. Love requires faith. Any word any kiss can be a lie and so you BELIEVE without evidence that her love is true. You have faith without evidence in love.

So you can put away your demand for evidence. That shit don't wash.

If you can't recon with the incredible improbability that we are even here, if you don't see some kind of intelligent designer in everything as small as quantum mechanics and as large as cosmology, as directional as evolution and as subtle as love then you are the one with a blind spot a mile wide.
 
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Arkady

President
Does your daughter love you? Of course.

Prove it. Show me the evidence.
She behaves exactly the way people behave when they love someone. That's evidence. It's not definitive evidence, since in theory she could be the most skilled six-year-old actress in history and one of the most consistently deceptive people in the world. But the belief that she loves me is the simplest explanation for the evidence. Compare that to the presumption that God loves me. Before I can even get to that question, I first have to assume there is a God, absent any evidence, and that God is aware of me, absent any evidence, and that God has an emotional reaction to me, absent any evidence. Those are are leaps of faith I don't have to take with my daughter, who I have observed to exist and to react to my existence and to have emotional responses to me. With my daughter the only leap is to the simplest explanation for the known evidence. And that kind of default preference for simple explanations has proven productive, historically. It's a built in part of scientific thinking. The simplest explanation isn't always the best, but absent evidence that forces more complicated explanations, making the assumption that something more complicated is the truth is a bad habit. For example, we assume lightning causes thunder, because it's the simplest explanation for the way we see the two interact. In theory, it could be wrong. Maybe there's a bunch of invisible, intangible genies who hover near everyone's ears and every recording device, ready to make a loud booming noise if they see any lightning. It's conceivable, but if scientists had the habit of thinking that way, we'd never progress.
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
She behaves exactly the way people behave when they love someone. That's evidence.
That's not evidence. That's faith. How do you know she's not lying? Answer: Faith. What's that? She's just an innocent child? Oh, okay. Then no adult has loved you because adults are terrific liars. Love dies after the age of 16. Wait. No it doesn't. It lives on in faith.

I witness the most improbably coincidences in my daily life that defy explanation. Had the "planets not lined up" exactly the way they did when my adopted daughter was born she would not have been my daughter.

Probability smiled on me? Luck o' the dice? Not the way it happened. I've never won the lottery but I've won the spiritual lottery every day of my life. You have too. You just refuse to see it.

Before I can even get to that question, I first have to assume there is a God, absent any evidence,
The evidence is all around you. It's in your daughter if you'd look deeper than the outermost image.
 
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Dawg

President
Supporting Member
She behaves exactly the way people behave when they love someone. That's evidence. It's not definitive evidence, since in theory she could be the most skilled six-year-old actress in history and one of the most consistently deceptive people in the world. But the belief that she loves me is the simplest explanation for the evidence. Compare that to the presumption that God loves me. Before I can even get to that question, I first have to assume there is a God, absent any evidence, and that God is aware of me, absent any evidence, and that God has an emotional reaction to me, absent any evidence. Those are are leaps of faith I don't have to take with my daughter, who I have observed to exist and to react to my existence and to have emotional responses to me. With my daughter the only leap is to the simplest explanation for the known evidence. And that kind of default preference for simple explanations has proven productive, historically. It's a built in part of scientific thinking. The simplest explanation isn't always the best, but absent evidence that forces more complicated explanations, making the assumption that something more complicated is the truth is a bad habit. For example, we assume lightning causes thunder, because it's the simplest explanation for the way we see the two interact. In theory, it could be wrong. Maybe there's a bunch of invisible, intangible genies who hover near everyone's ears and every recording device, ready to make a loud booming noise if they see any lightning. It's conceivable, but if scientists had the habit of thinking that way, we'd never progress.
Your daughter doesn't even know YOU...........you are here 24/7 and pay her NO attention..........same as with your wife,,,,,,,,,,,of course she's evidently liberal.........but,,,,,,she may be looking for ♥ she isn't getting at home while ya on PJ.........
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
Your daughter doesn't even know YOU...........you are here 24/7 and pay her NO attention..........same as with your wife,,,,,,,,,,,of course she's evidently liberal.........but,,,,,,she may be looking for ♥ she isn't getting at home while ya on PJ.........
Arkady is taking the day off.

Must be in church or something.
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
That's not evidence. That's faith. How do you know she's not lying? Answer: Faith. What's that? She's just an innocent child? Oh, okay. Then no adult has loved you because adults are terrific liars. Love dies after the age of 16. Wait. No it doesn't. It lives on in faith.

I witness the most improbably coincidences in my daily life that defy explanation. Had the "planets not lined up" exactly the way they did when my adopted daughter was born she would not have been my daughter.

Probability smiled on me? Luck o' the dice? Not the way it happened. I've never won the lottery but I've won the spiritual lottery every day of my life. You have too. You just refuse to see it.


The evidence is all around you. It's in your daughter if you'd look deeper than the outermost image.
@Arkady


You have unfinished business here.
 

Arkady

President
@Arkady


You have unfinished business here.
That's not evidence.
Of course it is. It's an observation from the real world, from which I've drawn the simplest consistent conclusion. That doesn't mean it's absolute proof, but evidence is never absolute proof, merely rational support. For example, say I add a drop of an antiseptic to a bacterial culture that I'm observing under a microscope and I see the bacteria suddenly die. That's evidence the antiseptic killed them. But maybe it didn't. Maybe they just happened to die due to an unrelated, coincidentally event. Maybe I hallucinated it, and they're alive and thriving. Maybe there's a god that used his magic powers of illusion to create a false appearance that the bacteria had died. Maybe we're all in a computer simulation and there never was a slide of bacteria in the first place. I can't rule any of that out with just the one experiment, and some of the possibilities can't be ruled out by any amount of experimentation. But science works. The habit of drawing the simplest consistent explanation for the observed real-world data is the habit that has led mankind up out of the Stone Age, and it's the habit I'm sticking with.

When my daughter behaves towards me in a manner that's characteristic of how I behave when I love someone, and that is also consistent with how I've witnessed others behave when they claim they love someone, and that is often inconsistent with what's in her immediate best interest, that's evidence that she loves me. Maybe she doesn't. Maybe this is all a computer simulation and my daughter doesn't even exist. I can never have definitive proof of anything. But I have the habit of drawing the simplest consistent explanation for observed real-world information, and that tells me she loves me.

I've never won the lottery
But lots of people have. That's the point. Even very unlikely events happen on a regular basis. The mere fact one happens to you, good or bad, isn't a reason to assume the existence of angels, demons, fairies, trolls, gods, or devils.
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
First of all, you're just repeating yourself. Repetition does not equal veracity. You need to develop your concept beyond the novice level. Like this:

I can't rule any of that out with just the one experiment, and some of the possibilities can't be ruled out by any amount of experimentation. But science works.
Oh does it now! You're writing to a guy who has a degree in Physics so let's take a closer look at this "science works" business you've repeated without understanding.

At the heart of the universe is quantum mechanics. It governs every chemical and nuclear interaction from the nuclear reactions in the sun to the biochemical reactions in your brain that manifest themselves in what you call love. The Copenhagen interpretation is THE interpretation of QM. It is "science." And the double slit diffraction experiment is the salient example of how BELIEF, that is, FAITH is required for the science to work. I'm skipping over vast territory here because you are a smart guy and I assume you know the details. If not, I'm happy to go over them in a future post. But skipping ahead. . .

The idea that the wave function that is the photon in the experiment goes through BOTH slits at the same time requires faith. How so? Because scaling up the experiment means that you, standing at a great wall with two doors separated by a mile, have the ability to go through BOTH doors simultaneously. That makes no sense. Furthermore, that wave function rather than following a definite path to the screen beyond the double slit instead takes on ALL paths and is undefined until the scientist makes an observation. Only then does the wave function collapse and settle on a specific location. It is as if the position of the photon doesn't exist until the scientist LOOKS at it. As Einstein said, "Does the moon cease to exist when I stop looking at it?" And yet you are required to believe that this is possible at the quantum level. That's science. That works. And that is faith.

When my daughter behaves towards me in a manner that's characteristic of how I behave when I love someone,
Ohhhh! So it's a PERSONAL experience! Well, of course it is!

But that's what I've been saying all along. Your "evidence" of love is an extremely personal experience. My evidence of God is also an extremely personal experience. The fact that I embrace belief in God, love, and science is evidence of my consistency in the whole matter. YOU are the one who embraces belief in love and science but cuts God out for no good reason. It is a split--a kind of schizophrenia you have.

You want hard evidence? Something that is transferable outside of yourself, your beliefs, your sensory inputs that other people can agree upon as well? Well, we've gone over that. If you understand, mathematically--scientifically--the incredible improbability through the Big Bang, through universal constants, through evolution that any of us are here living and typing on a keyboard then you realize it actually takes more faith to believe in a Godless universe than it takes to believe in God.

You are the high priest of belief here, not me.
 

Arkady

President
First of all, you're just repeating yourself.
Yes. The idea is fairly simple, so I would have hoped such repetition wouldn't be necessary, but I'll be happy to continue until you get it.

Oh does it now! You're writing to a guy who has a degree in Physics
Excellent. So this is remedial stuff for you.

And the double slit diffraction experiment is the salient example of how BELIEF, that is, FAITH is required for the science to work
No. The double-slit experiment is a simple example of how scientific theories are based on evidence, not on faith. If I believed in wave-particle duality because I had an emotional sense that it was right, or because some ancient people claimed it was revealed to them by the son of God, or something like that, that would be faith, since it would be belief without evidence. But the two-slit experiment is all about developing real-world evidence. If light behaves the way the hypothesis suggested, then a certain pattern would emerge on the film, and that's just what happens. Such experiments are what moved us past conjecture and hypothesis to a firmer understanding of how things work at the sub-atomic level. That doesn't mean the theory is right. Maybe invisible elves are painting the pattern on the film to confuse us. But right now the wave/particle theory is the simplest consistent explanation for what we see. It's hard to wrap our heads around, but it doesn't needlessly multiply entities to come up with an explanation -- it's as simple and consistent a theory as has yet been formulated that explains the evidence we see.

Your "evidence" of love is an extremely personal experience.
All evidence is, ultimately, a personal experience, in that we only know what comes through our personal senses. But there's a difference between rationally analyzing what comes through our senses along the lines of favoring the simplest consistent explanations for what we perceive, and simply assuming something must be true because we find it emotionally appealing to make the assumption.

I suppose this may come down to semantics. Perhaps you're referring to the evidence-based analysis I'm talking about in the former case as "faith." That's fine. Semantics aren't terribly interesting to me, so call it what you will. But that still leaves the important distinction between the mode of thinking I favor (working towards conclusions along lines of minimal complexity based on tested observations of real-world events), and the mode of thinking I consider a dead end (believing in outlandish things without any evidence merely because they comfort you).

YOU are the one who embraces belief in love and science but cuts God out for no good reason.
As a reminder, my approach is exactly the same as yours in very nearly all examples. Neither of us believes in the actual existence of the god Zeus, Thor, Horus, Bishamon, Dizang, Vishnu, Ahura Mazda, Marduk, Medb, Govinda, Pele, Kui, Mithras, Taiowa, Quetzalcoatl, Kukulcan, Tezactlipoca, Bes, etc., nor in fairies, vampires, trolls, boggarts, were-jaguars, past lives, Nirvana, and so on. A believer in any of those could, of course, accuse you of cutting out his favored gods "for no reason." But you have a perfectly good reason for not thinking, say, that there's a feathered serpent named Quetzalcoatl, born to the virgin Chimalman, after the god Onteol appeared to her in a dream. You don't believe it because it's an outlandish claim for which no supporting evidence exists.

That's the same position you consistently take with regard to all those other gods and supernatural beings and phenomena in that list.... and the same position I take with regard to ALL such claims. I'm consistent. You're ALMOST consistent, but you make one special exception for the one superstition you're emotionally attached to -- just as most people in the world make one special exception based on similar emotional states, albeit with that one exception varying from person to person (nearly always based on what they were told to believe when they were young children). You reject Odin and embrace Yahweh, whereas if you'd been raised in Norway in 750 CE, you'd have rejected Odin and embraced Yahweh, for identical reasons. I'm one of the rarer people who takes a consistent approach.

it actually takes more faith to believe in a Godless universe than it takes to believe in God
It takes no more faith for me to stick to the default assumption that your god isn't real than it takes for you to stick with the default assumption that the Olmec Dragon God isn't real. The act of faith is to look at something you don't understand (whether that be why it rains, what causes volcanoes, or why the universal constants are what they are) and to insert a supernatural being into the story to explain it to your emotional satisfaction.

You are doing what most people have done throughout history, and inventing supernatural characters to cope with stuff that's beyond your comprehension. That's a dead end. If you embrace a just-so story to explain something you don't understand (serpents lack legs because Yahweh punished them for their ancestor having tempted humans to eat the wrong fruit), that slows the way to a better understanding of why it's really true. We've long since moved past, say, explaining the existence of rainbows as a reminder of Yahweh's promise that he won't drown nearly all of humanity again, but that's merely because now we know better about how rainbows really form. But since we haven't yet moved to a solid understanding of what started the Big Bang or why universal constants are what they are, the masses still do what the masses have always done and they invent supernatural characters to whom to attribute those things. It's the "God of the Gaps" -- as long as there's anything we can't yet explain (and there always will be) there will be a human impulse to attribute it to a supernatural being or phenomenon, as our ancestors did for countless generations.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
Catholics at their heart are communists.
As a Catholic, I whole-heartedly disagree with that statement.

Communists enforce laws that forces one into compliance of assisting those who the government feels needs assistance.

Catholics, while sometimes confused, are called to give out of the goodness of their heart, and not by government force.

Catholics employ "charity", communists do not.
 

Arkady

President
Were those done out of free will or because they were forced to by an armed, powerful government system?

Please be historically accurate.
There was clearly less free will operating in their case than in the case of modern communist nations, since all modern communist nations can threaten for disobedience is finite punishment (e.g., a period of hard labor in the gulag), whereas the religious leaders could threaten infinite punishment for disobedience (eternal torture in a lake of fire). There's still a possibility of free will in both cases, but the expected harm to be suffered in the event you choose "wrong" from the perspective of the authorities is infinitely different in the two cases, making the scope of free will much greater in the case where only real-world punishment is threatened.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
I know some very strong and wonderful Christians who are Catholic. I don't know what they think of this Pope.
I'll speak up. You don't "know" me, but as a Catholic, there's some good and some very bad with this Pope.

First, it has to be reminded that the Pope is not a "ruler" in the classical sense. What the Pope says on a given day isn't what all Catholics are required to do. The Pope's infallibility is in a razor thin department when it comes to defining dogma.

As for Pope Francis, he's very fluffy. He exudes kindness in a great way. However, he's also clearly a globalist. And that makes sense given where he came from. He doesn't appear to realize the benefit the world has from those who are rich, and the capitalist system. The medical technology we benefit from wouldn't be where it is today without an evil Capitalist system.

He's alarmed many Catholics by some of his words.. such as there is no such thing as a Muslim terrorist. He talks using common globalist code words.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but it makes me wonder about the odd situation he came to be Pope. Why would Benedict suddenly step down? With the globalist powers that exist, it wouldn't surprise me if there was an agenda to get this particular guy in.

However, to wrap things up, he's merely a globalist who became Pope. Again, he can say things, and bring valid points, which he has on certain issues, ones that merely are calls to the human soul and charity, something leftists do very little of out of their own free will.
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
There was clearly less free will operating in their case than in the case of modern communist nations, since all modern communist nations can threaten for disobedience is finite punishment (e.g., a period of hard labor in the gulag), whereas the religious leaders could threaten infinite punishment for disobedience (eternal torture in a lake of fire). There's still a possibility of free will in both cases, but the expected harm to be suffered in the event you choose "wrong" from the perspective of the authorities is infinitely different in the two cases, making the scope of free will much greater in the case where only real-world punishment is threatened.
Bottom Line:

Jesus and the apostles called for personal charity, and if you didn't, you'd keep your life, your freedom, and merely your soul would be in question.

Communism calls for compliance of the law, and if you don't, your freedom and possibly life are in question.

Big difference.
 

Arkady

President
Bottom Line:

Jesus and the apostles called for personal charity, and if you didn't, you'd keep your life, your freedom, and merely your soul would be in question.
"Merely your soul"?! What a profoundly un-Christian way to phrase that! Jesus said "What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?" From the Christian perspective, risking the loss of your soul is infinitely more terrible that petty matters like losing your life or freedom. Yet it's the loss of that soul that the Christians are threatened with if they don't obey. Clearly that leaves far less range for the operation of genuinely free will than exists in a situation where only relatively minor penalties can be threatened for disobedience, as in a communist state.

Big difference.
Agreed. It's infinitely big. What the Christian religion threatens for those who don't exercise their free will in accordance with the dictates of the authorities is infinitely worse than what even the most horrible of communist dictatorships has been able to threaten.
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
I'll speak up. You don't "know" me, but as a Catholic, there's some good and some very bad with this Pope.

First, it has to be reminded that the Pope is not a "ruler" in the classical sense. What the Pope says on a given day isn't what all Catholics are required to do. The Pope's infallibility is in a razor thin department when it comes to defining dogma.

As for Pope Francis, he's very fluffy. He exudes kindness in a great way. However, he's also clearly a globalist. And that makes sense given where he came from. He doesn't appear to realize the benefit the world has from those who are rich, and the capitalist system. The medical technology we benefit from wouldn't be where it is today without an evil Capitalist system.

He's alarmed many Catholics by some of his words.. such as there is no such thing as a Muslim terrorist. He talks using common globalist code words.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but it makes me wonder about the odd situation he came to be Pope. Why would Benedict suddenly step down? With the globalist powers that exist, it wouldn't surprise me if there was an agenda to get this particular guy in.

However, to wrap things up, he's merely a globalist who became Pope. Again, he can say things, and bring valid points, which he has on certain issues, ones that merely are calls to the human soul and charity, something leftists do very little of out of their own free will.
All good points. On occasion I have seen a big difference between what the Pope actually says and what the press prints. It is very difficult to determine what he actually said.

Having said that, I've read his encyclical on climate change and. . .oh boy. I think he really is a communist but not of the violent sort--Stalin, Castro, Lenin, etc. but more of a Smurfy sort. He has said that the GOALS of what people like Castro have tried to attain are noble but their methods are not. Hmmmm.

And so this is how he sees what we should strive for:


And as such he is a dreamer and subject to manipulation by the more Stalinist forces in the world. Furthermore, I reject his goals as I perceive them. I think if a person wants to join a commune like a kibbutz or whatever on a small scale (<200 people) then they should knock themselves out. Go for it.

But Jesus never said nor implied that communism--Stalinist or Papa Smurf variety--is a worthy goal on a national level. At best, the apostles agreed to exercise it among themselves and their (tiny) community and that's it.

These "pro-communist" lines are a handful in number and can't compete with the rest of the bible that is saturated with free will. All things in context and proportion: Freedom first. Common property one hundred and twenty-fifth if you get my drift.
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
Excellent. So this is remedial stuff for you.
Pretty much. Don't be intimidated. I'm not trying to be. You just sound nervous.

No. The double-slit experiment is a simple example of how scientific theories are based on evidence, not on faith. If I believed in wave-particle duality because I had an emotional sense that it was right, or because some ancient people claimed it was revealed to them by the son of God, or something like that, that would be faith, since it would be belief without evidence.
You are asked to BELIEVE that a photon (650 nanometers wide) can pass through two slits (100,000 nm wide each) separated by the thickness of a razor blade (127,000 nm) at the same time. If you are 2 ft wide at the shoulders this is equivalent to you SIMULTANEOUSLY passing through two doors each a football field in length and separated by the length of a stadium. Now with the understanding that YOU are merely another particle in the universe with your own wave function, do you believe you can pass through those two doors simultaneously? That requires faith because it doesn't make sense.

But right now the wave/particle theory is the simplest consistent explanation for what we see.
No it's not. Bohmian Mechanics is simpler. We have the Copenhagen interpretation of QM because that's what was promoted in 1927. It was radical then and is now a kind of dogma in exactly the way that the geocentric universe was dogma in Galileo's time.

The Copenhagen interpretation demands we believe a wave/particle can be in two places at the same time. It demands we believe a definite wave/particle doesn't exist between the double slit and the phosphorescent screen, that the wavicle takes all possible paths enroute to the screen, and that it takes a measurement. . .made by a human. . .for its position and momentum to be real. That is philosophical ear standing as great as any fundamentalist dogma!

What is easier to "believe" is that the particle has a DEFINITE position and momentum the whole time and that we are merely incapable of measuring them. What's easier to believe is that the particle--say an electron in the same double slit diffraction experiment with the same results--goes through ONE slit and follows ONE path to the screen riding on a pilot wave that exists concurrently (but separately) from the electron.

Louis deBroglie came up with pilot wave theory in 1927. It was shot down by John von Neumann. David Bohm later revived it and Gretta Herman later disproved von Neumann's conclusions. Later still, a group of four physicists re-disproved pilot wave theory only to have their conclusions overturned by Steinberg. So Bohmian Mechanics is a very real alternative to the "belief" in the Copenhagen interpretation and yet it is "fringe."


A model (not evidence) of Bohmian Mechanics in a double slit experiment is here.


So the question is what do you believe? Do you believe the dogma of the established science under the Copenhagen interpretation? Or do you embrace the hard science of Bohmian Mechanics? You appear to just throw your hands up in the air and say, "That's science!" just like a fundamentalist preaching about a biblical contradiction shrugging and saying, "That's God!"

You don't have to have a PhD to understand this. On the one hand you believe a "wavicle" can pass through two crazy slits and have all the impossible characteristics demanded by the mathematical gymnastics of established Copenhagen or you can believe a particle has a definite position and momentum throughout its existence and instead has the very strange characteristics of "global hidden variables" which is nothing more complicated than saying two entangled particles can communicate instantaneously across arbitrary distances seemingly violating the Theory of Relativity. But. . .we already have this strange global variable characteristic in the Copenhagen interpretation. So. . .

You really do embrace science with the same fervor as a fundamentalist high priest. Except. . .science is not meant to be religion. You've merely adopted it as such.

So now not only do you have faith in what you believe is science but you have a competing faith. You believe in the established dogma of Copenhagen but reject de Broglie-Bohm (to embrace Quantum Mechanics is to embrace Copenhagen dogma at the expense of de Broglie-Bohm. You can't get around that. They are mutually exclusive.) Realizing that to NOT choose between the two interpretations and let the science settle itself out is merely a cop out of the comfortably ignorant. Such a person would be in favor of the geocentric theory and bash Galileo along with the church until the scientific community simply embraced Galileo and his theory was accepted. Then, hey, it's science. Embrace heliocentric. No hard feelings, Galileo. It was the church at the time and we didn't know better.

So why not take a stand?

Because it requires faith. Which you claim you don't have and don't need. I say you're just willfully blind.
 
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Arkady

President
Pretty much. Don't be intimidated.
Not to worry, I'm not intimidated in the slightest. I have three years of college-level physics under my belt at an elite university (I started as a physics major) so this is remedial stuff for me, too.

You are asked to BELIEVE that a photon (650 nanometers wide) can pass through two slits (100,000 nm wide each) separated by the thickness of a razor blade (127,000 nm) at the same time.
Yes. And the point is that I'm asked to believe it on the basis of real-world evidence. It's not that my priest assured me it happens and so I'm supposed to take his word for it. It's not that I'm supposed to be inspired to believe it by an emotional response during prayer. It's not that I'm supposed to simply accept a scriptural assurance left by a bronze age author. I'm asked to believe it because it's the simplest consistent explanation for experimental data that has been replicated countless times by countless independent people, including me. That doesn't require faith. If I DENIED the results, based on an irrational conviction that the rules that apply at a 2-foot scale must also apply at the nano scale, that would be a leap of faith.

No it's not. Bohmian Mechanics is simpler.
No, it's not. In fact, that's a main critique of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie–Bohm_theory#Occam.27s-razor_criticism

Basically, Bohm calls on people to believe in the existence of a superfluous particle to explain what's happening.

But it doesn't really matter, for purposes of this argument, which interpretation is right. I don't have faith in either. I simply go with what, based on real-world evidence, currently seems to be the simplest consistent explanation. If new experiments or a better understanding of existing ones changes my mind about which is the simpler consistent explanation, I'll go with that one, until something better comes along. For example, if someone can devise an experiment where the outcome would be one way with the Copenhagen Model and the other way based on Bohmian Mechanics, and it turns out the way Bohmian Mechanics would predict, and that result is replicated, I'll embrace Bohmian Mechanics -- as will the scientific community.

That's the essence of scientific thinking, and the opposite of faith, which is belief in the absence of any evidence. If, like you, I invented an entity --God-- for which I had no evidence, and attributed things I didn't understand to the acts of that imagined being, that would be faith. Reasoning out cause and effect from observed phenomena isn't faith, even if what I've reasoned out ends up being wrong. Maybe someday there will be that experiment that proves out the superiority of the Bohmian interpretation, and those who had sided with the Copenhagen interpretation will be proven wrong. But unless they stubbornly cling to the interpretation that's now been shown to be at odds with the evidence, that doesn't mean they've acted in faith. It's the mindset that matters, and if my mindset is to start with the evidence and follow it where it leads, that's not faith. If my mindset is to start with a strong belief and then bend my intellect to trying to make evidence fit with it, that's faith.

You really do embrace science with the same fervor as a fundamentalist high priest.
The question isn't degree of fervor but instead cause of the embrace. I like science because it produces results. I was on a plane the other day. It was made possible not because someone had faith that God would conduct us safely through the air, but rather because generations of scientists followed a method of trial and error --observation of real-world data and experimentation-- that gradually led us to that modern marvel. If science didn't work, I wouldn't support it. That's very different from faith, where the absence of any evidence of efficacy is immaterial, since the belief was never grounded in evidence, and so evidence can't rattle it. People, for example, have faith in the efficacy of prayer even though all attempts to measure it in controlled experiments fail. They simply look at that evidence and invent increasingly Byzantine explanations to allow their initial, ungrounded, belief to stand (e.g., prayer normally works but God doesn't like being tested, so he makes it not work when it's being tested).

Except. . .science is not meant to be religion. You've merely adopted it as such.
No. What you're suffering from is the usual theistic projection. Somewhere deep down you feel embarrassed about your faith, and so you must ascribe the same error to everyone else. For atheists, that means calling a non-faith behavior "faith," even when it bears none of the hallmarks associated with faith. My belief in the efficacy of the scientific method, for example, gets labeled "faith," even though that belief was derived from actual observations of the method's effects here in the real world, not some "divine revelation" or "received wisdom" from a spiritual leader.
 
C

Capitalist

Guest
Not to worry, I'm not intimidated in the slightest. I have three years of college-level physics under my belt at an elite university (I started as a physics major) so this is remedial stuff for me, too.



Yes. And the point is that I'm asked to believe it on the basis of real-world evidence. It's not that my priest assured me it happens and so I'm supposed to take his word for it. It's not that I'm supposed to be inspired to believe it by an emotional response during prayer. It's not that I'm supposed to simply accept a scriptural assurance left by a bronze age author. I'm asked to believe it because it's the simplest consistent explanation for experimental data that has been replicated countless times by countless independent people, including me. That doesn't require faith. If I DENIED the results, based on an irrational conviction that the rules that apply at a 2-foot scale must also apply at the nano scale, that would be a leap of faith.



No, it's not. In fact, that's a main critique of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie–Bohm_theory#Occam.27s-razor_criticism

Basically, Bohm calls on people to believe in the existence of a superfluous particle to explain what's happening.

But it doesn't really matter, for purposes of this argument, which interpretation is right. I don't have faith in either. I simply go with what, based on real-world evidence, currently seems to be the simplest consistent explanation. If new experiments or a better understanding of existing ones changes my mind about which is the simpler consistent explanation, I'll go with that one, until something better comes along. For example, if someone can devise an experiment where the outcome would be one way with the Copenhagen Model and the other way based on Bohmian Mechanics, and it turns out the way Bohmian Mechanics would predict, and that result is replicated, I'll embrace Bohmian Mechanics -- as will the scientific community.

That's the essence of scientific thinking, and the opposite of faith, which is belief in the absence of any evidence. If, like you, I invented an entity --God-- for which I had no evidence, and attributed things I didn't understand to the acts of that imagined being, that would be faith. Reasoning out cause and effect from observed phenomena isn't faith, even if what I've reasoned out ends up being wrong. Maybe someday there will be that experiment that proves out the superiority of the Bohmian interpretation, and those who had sided with the Copenhagen interpretation will be proven wrong. But unless they stubbornly cling to the interpretation that's now been shown to be at odds with the evidence, that doesn't mean they've acted in faith. It's the mindset that matters, and if my mindset is to start with the evidence and follow it where it leads, that's not faith. If my mindset is to start with a strong belief and then bend my intellect to trying to make evidence fit with it, that's faith.



The question isn't degree of fervor but instead cause of the embrace. I like science because it produces results. I was on a plane the other day. It was made possible not because someone had faith that God would conduct us safely through the air, but rather because generations of scientists followed a method of trial and error --observation of real-world data and experimentation-- that gradually led us to that modern marvel. If science didn't work, I wouldn't support it. That's very different from faith, where the absence of any evidence of efficacy is immaterial, since the belief was never grounded in evidence, and so evidence can't rattle it. People, for example, have faith in the efficacy of prayer even though all attempts to measure it in controlled experiments fail. They simply look at that evidence and invent increasingly Byzantine explanations to allow their initial, ungrounded, belief to stand (e.g., prayer normally works but God doesn't like being tested, so he makes it not work when it's being tested).



No. What you're suffering from is the usual theistic projection. Somewhere deep down you feel embarrassed about your faith, and so you must ascribe the same error to everyone else. For atheists, that means calling a non-faith behavior "faith," even when it bears none of the hallmarks associated with faith. My belief in the efficacy of the scientific method, for example, gets labeled "faith," even though that belief was derived from actual observations of the method's effects here in the real world, not some "divine revelation" or "received wisdom" from a spiritual leader.
In summary, there is as much evidence for God as there is for love regardless of the fact that the evidence is personal. There is as much requirement of faith in Quantum Mechanics as there is for God regardless of the fact that scientists agree you can't peer beyond a certain point into either.

You are perfectly fine in believing in love and quantum mechanics but deny the existence of God even though God, love, and quantum mechanics require a strong degree of faith backed by evidence personal or otherwise. The schism is all yours.
 
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