why is it that religious belief

[JV-12]

First all the miracle at Fatima was not seen by 50,000. It can be explained that by staring at the sun , optics are affected and very religious people can see things with the power of suggestion. I need proof...there have been so many "miracles .including Jesus appearing toast. If you want to believe, be my guest.

Ok, your Fatima retort did not excite one molecule in the curiosity part of my brain. The “Jesus toast” offering is a silly red herring you guys often trot out to try to divert attention from the larger legitimate miracle claims you appear to struggle with.

You ask why atheists wouldn't want to believe in god, the same reason people don't believe a black cat crossing beings back luck. I don't need the supernatural to tell me I am sinning, I don't need the fear of the supernatural to do good.

In other words, “you are not interested” is all your are saying? Ok, fine, but I ask myself “why would she not be interested?", and, again, you leave me having to fill in the blanks by guessing (for my own wonder of course, not your edification).

You ask why I would not want to believe in God and I guess I can ask you the same question except I ask why do you need to believe there is a God? Is it because without this fear you would be a bad person? If there was proof there was no god, would you suddenly kill and steal?

No, I would suddenly go mad. The thought of being zapped into nothingness upon death and never seeing those dear to me again is a worse pain than anything you can conceive here on earth. Why do I need to believe in God? Easy. I need to know for my own well being is there life after death or not and are there consequences based on what we do now? You plan for your earthly future which is meaningless compared to planning for an eternity.

Do I think atheists are lechers and criminals because they believe it matters not once they die? No, I do not. That is not my point. But I do believe it does lessen some of their morals and some of their virtues because they have no fear. Yes, I do. But Catholic theology is far deeper than just how many times one may have had sex outside of marriage, so you cannot reduce it to that base argument. Jesus did not say “go to all corners of the world peaching the good news and baptizing” if it did not have a very important reason behind it.

You say you are not judging me, but that is exactly what you are doing.

I am judging sin, yes. I am not judging you or anyone as to what you may deserve or not. Not in the least. That, too, is a grave sin. I am only trying to convince someone of something they presently do not believe or accept. Now it is true on boards like this it gets far more contentious, but that is not how I approach anyone face to face. Here, no one is switching teams under any kind of verbage, it is more for our entertainment. Sorry if I come off so mean or direct, because I sometimes am naïve enough to think they are not offended by another's opinion, the way I am not offended.

I won't make it to heaven, hell or purgatory....I will be in the same place as you...six feet under. I don't need you to "issue warnings"...and that is a reason I dislike religion...you want to impose your beliefs on me and if I don't accept them, ....bad things will happen to me.

Why must you or they keep referring to it as “imposing” something on you? Why? I am only offering an opinion and you are inundated with peoples’ opinions of all kinds every day of your life. But when it is an opinon on God’s existence or nature, now we are mean-spirited oppressors. I don’t get it? Or is it what I said in my opening monologue, i.e. “that many atheists do not want to hear anything along these lines because it makes them feel they may be held accountable for their actions?”

Here is an opinion, Renee. When you die you will not cease to exist. It is my opinion, but I am absolutely 100% certain I am correct on that.

I say to you, be good because you are, not because of your fear of the unknown.

Except, that is not the message of God or the Word. It is far, far, far greater than just that. So you may want to dismiss this exchange by saying you have already accomplished our objectives or God’s objectives with your good intentions but I am not on board with that. And if you want my opinion, I doubt what most are doing “as good persons alone” is hardly enough for what God is hoping for either.

 

[Renee]

How can you sin without believing in God? I don't need the supernatural to tell me I am sinning, A likeness to someone on toast does not constitute a "miracle." But, I have no problem with you not believing in anything, and I don't press my beliefs on you. So, please, for those who DO believe, lay off your sarcasm.

Do you really think sin needs believing in God? People use the word like..it's a sin to put sugar in apple pie does that mean that God will punish them? A sin is an offense against moral law. A sin is serious shortcoming. A sin is a reprehensible act. To the religious it is a sin against god. I have to ask you a question....I was responding to someone who was pressing his beliefs on me as much as I am expressing my beliefs here. Why do you choose to let the believers here who condemn atheists get a free ride? As I repeat ad nauseam, you learn more about the person by the side of the argument she chooses.

 

[RickWA]

That would be interesting if it were generally true. I don't think it is. Then again, maybe "they" really do hate us for our freedoms. And maybe "the takers" really are jealous of "the makers." And maybe agnostics and atheists really are simply self-indulgent sinners who've hardened their hearts against the obvious truth. And maybe gays really are amoral, promiscuous deviants who happily spread disease and ruthlessly target for annihilation anyone who doesn't support their right to parade down main street bumping and grinding with their junk hanging out. And maybe climate change "believers" are devious haters of capitalism who are looking to destroy our economy because they want to usher in a new world order under the auspices of the U.N.

Or maybe claims of persecution and victim hood are generally nothing more than commonly-used rhetorical devices that can really be judged absent any particulars.

Cheers.

I claim no victimhood. I do, however, focus precisely on what the poster to whom I responded wrote. He selectively cites hateful behaviors of some Christian adherents as driving why some are turned off by Christians in general. He did not cite, for example, a few extremist homosexuals in rearless chaps cracking whips in a gay rights parade. You see, it would be wrong to extrapolate such sensibilities across so large, varied, and diverse a group - correct? And such allegation merits clear, undiluted treatment - free of distractions offered by those of similar selective sympathies.

IOW, we should all strive harder to be who we claim to be - tolerant, pluralistic people who, rather than abide and practice selective demonization of groups, take individuals on their merits.

Like a laser, I tells ya. ;-)

 

[Havelock]

I claim no victimhood.

Well actually, ya kinda did. Can you not see that?

IOW, we should all strive harder to be who we claim to be - tolerant, pluralistic people who, rather than abide and practice selective demonization of groups, take individuals on their merits.

Agreed!

Cheers.

 

[RickWA]

Well actually, ya kinda did. Can you not see that? Cheers.

When I acknowledge that a lack of reciprocity...or any particular state of conduct exists, I do not claim victimhood. I simply observe reality. I am quite blessed, comparatively quite comfortable by all meaningful measure to my way of thinking. I am no victim.

Acknowledging the existence of poverty - whether poverty of material, character, or spiritual matters - is no claim to victimhood. And so it goes. When some engage in bigotry here or there and I acknowledge this, it makes no victim of me. I simply hope to open some eyes from time to time.

Have a great evening.

 

[Havelock]

When I acknowledge that a lack of reciprocity...or any particular state of conduct exists, I do not claim victimhood. I simply observe reality. I am quite blessed, comparatively quite comfortable by all meaningful measure to my way of thinking. I am no victim.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were claiming to be a victim in the sense that your life has been negatively impacted in terms of your personal comfort. Think bigger picture...

Acknowledging the existence of poverty - whether poverty of material, character, or spiritual matters - is no claim to victimhood. And so it goes. When some engage in bigotry here or there and I acknowledge this, it makes no victim of me. I simply hope to open some eyes from time to time.

Mmm hmm... And I find that quite a lot of folks tend to be fairly selective about the bigotry they acknowledge and in pointing out whose eyes are firmly shut. That's just human nature, no? And that's why I think it's best to deal in specifics whenever possible -- on offense and defense, so to speak -- instead of simply scolding others for not being as even-handed as I think they should be.

Have a great evening.

You too!

 

[Charcat]

Why do you choose to let the believers here who condemn atheists get a free ride?

I have not seen anyone here condemn atheists. Where are you coming from? I have seen you ridicule Christian beliefs time after time, but I have seen no Christian condemn an atheist. Can you give me an example?

 

[Renee]

Ok, your Fatima retort did not excite one molecule in the curiosity part of my brain. The “Jesus toast” offering is a silly red herring you guys often trot out to try to divert attention from the larger legitimate miracle claims you appear to struggle with.

In other words, “you are not interested” is all your are saying? Ok, fine, but I ask myself “why would she not be interested, and, again, you leave me having to fill in the blanks by guessing (for my own wonder of course, not your edification).

No, I would suddenly go mad. The thought of being zapped into nothingness upon death and never seeing those dear to me again is a worse pain than anything you can conceive here on earth. Why do I need to believe in God? Easy. I need to know for my own well being is there life after death or not and are there consequences based on what we do now? You plan for your earthly future which is meaningless compared to planning for an eternity.

Do I think atheists are lechers and criminals because they believe it matters not once they die? No, I do not. That is not my point. But I do believe it does lessen some of their morals and some of their virtues because they have no fear. Yes, I do. But Catholic theology is far deeper than just how many times one may have had sex outside of marriage, so you cannot reduce it to that base argument. Jesus did not say “go to all corners of the world peaching the good news and baptizing” if it did not have a very important reason behind it.

I am judging sin, yes. I am not judging you or anyone as to what you may deserve or not. Not in the least. That, too, is a grave sin. I am only trying to convince someone of something they presently do not believe or accept. Now it is true on boards like this it gets far more contentious, but that is not how I approach anyone face to face. Here, no one is switching teams under any kind of verbage, it is more for our entertainment. Sorry if I offend sometimes because I just don’t think it’s a big deal.

Why must you or they keep referring to it as “imposing” something on you? Why? I am only offering an opinion and you are inundated with peoples’ opinions of all kinds every day of your life. But when it is an opinon on God’s existence or nature, now we are mean-spirited oppressors. I don’t get it? Or is it what I said in my opening monologue, i.e. “that many atheists do not want to hear anything along these lines because it makes them feel they may be held accountable for their actions?”

Here is an opinion, Renee. When you die you will not cease to exist. It is my opinion, but I am absolutely 100% certain I am correct on that.

Except, that is not the message of God or the Word. It is far, far, far greater than just that. So you may want to dismiss this exchange by saying you have already accomplished our objectives or God’s objectives with your good intentions but I am not on board with that. And if you want my opinion, I doubt what most are doing “as good persons alone” is hardly enough for what God is hoping for either.

I don't know how to do what you did with breaking it up ...can you tell me how you did it?

First of all you didn't like what I said about Fatima....that's fine. You need to believe, I don't. I gave you a perfectly acceptable theory.
You ask why would I not believe in god? I believed for many years, half my life....but as I got more educated I could not suspend all logic and believe in the supernatural ...because that is what god is. I also could not believe that an omnipotent God could be so cruel. I realized he is either not omnipotent or he is not a loving god. To put it simply, I don't believe in the supernatural. Why does that make me lazy or wanting to sin. I don't need the supernatural to control me....I am a thinking, logical person. To me, it is superstition and I believe the bible is a book written by a bunch of men , and I mean men, to control the masses. Why do you make such negative suppositions about non believers. I dont need a reason not to believe
You make it very clear why you believe...you need to you. You cannot accept that when you die, it is over. You say you know there is an afterlife , 100% sure. I am sure there is no afterlife , 100% sure. One of us wrong, and I hope it's me.
When I talk about imposing religion on me, I was not referring to you specifically. I speak bout those who want to deny women contraception and abortion .i feel religion is imposed on me when people want kids to pray in school and I feel it is imposed on my gay friends and family members .
Toward the end you made up a reason I don't believe in god....you're wrong.

 

[JV-12]

I don't know how to do what you did with breaking it up ...can you tell me how you did it?

First of all you didn't like what I said about Fatima....that's fine. You need to believe, I don't. I gave you a perfectly acceptable theory.
You ask why would I not believe in god? I believed for many years, half my life....but as I got more educated I could not suspend all logic and believe in the supernatural ...because that is what god is. I also could not believe that an omnipotent God could be so cruel. I realized he is either not omnipotent or he is not a loving god. To put it simply, I don't believe in the supernatural. Why does that make me lazy or wanting to sin. I don't need the supernatural to control me....I am a thinking, logical person. To me, it is superstition and I believe the bible is a book written by a bunch of men , and I mean men, to control the masses. Why do you make such negative suppositions about non believers. I dont need a reason not to believe
You make it very clear why you believe...you need to you. You cannot accept that when you die, it is over. You say you know there is an afterlife , 100% sure. I am sure there is no afterlife , 100% sure. One of us wrong, and I hope it's me.
When I talk about imposing religion on me, I was not referring to you specifically. I speak bout those who want to deny women contraception and abortion .i feel religion is imposed on me when people want kids to pray in school and I feel it is imposed on my gay friends and family members .
Toward the end you made up a reason I don't believe in god....you're wrong.

First of all, I believe you. And I apologize again for being so mean-spirited in some passages. But if you read what I said again, I did not intend it to be describing you personally, but just suggesting motives as to why some offer wild ideas against certain miracles or who argue strongly against God’s existence. I did say to sin without consequence or just being lazy as often prime motives, I admit, but I also admit now I could be dead wrong on the prevalence I was assuming. I have said this before, but I do think of you as a person of good intentions and honest ideas of how we should treat others, we just disagree mostly on God’s existence, but also abortion and no doubt some other social mores. Even though I see you and others go back and forth here a bit nastily at times, I don’t think it’s heartfelt, just unavoidable at times. Mean fun.

So, yes, I believe that you are honestly trying to get at the truth and cannot come to the same conclusions as me. That does not make you a bad person, nor does that describe the kind of motivations I am suggesting above. I think I do that just to try to shake up one or two out there, but at the expense of offending undeserving others. That’s a fault of mine, I’m sure it will surface again. 

I’m sick and leaving the office. I'll tell you later how I break up comments.

 

[Renee]

First of all, I believe you. And I apologize again for being so mean-spirited in some passages. But if you read what I said again, I did not intend it to be describing you personally, but just suggesting motives as to why some offer wild ideas against certain miracles or who argue strongly against God’s existence. I did say to sin without consequence or just being lazy as often prime motives, I admit, but I also admit now I could be dead wrong on the prevalence I was assuming. I have said this before, but I do think of you as a person of good intentions and honest ideas of how we should treat others, we just disagree mostly on God’s existence, but also abortion and no doubt some other social mores. Even though I see you and others go back and forth here a bit nastily at times, I don’t think it’s heartfelt, just unavoidable at times. Mean fun.

So, yes, I believe that you are honestly trying to get at the truth and cannot come to the same conclusions as me. That does not make you a bad person, nor does that describe the kind of motivations I am suggesting above. I think I do that just to try to shake up one or two out there, but at the expense of offending undeserving others. That’s a fault of mine, I’m sure it will surface again. 

I’m sick and leaving the office. I'll tell you later how I break up comments.

I hope you feel better. since you aren't feeling well, I will respond at a later date. Drink hot tea

 

[gigi]

Why is it that so many folks choose to ascribe their bigotry to their religious beliefs and then argue that people should be "tolerant" of their bigotry because God requires it of them?

Is it only acceptable to be intolerant of bigots if they are also atheists?

Any belief that an atheist or another Christian, or someone of another faith disagrees with is easily labeled "bigotry" by those who find the beliefs irritating. And the irritation comes along when Christians won't vote a certain way or support a cause that needs every set of pipes its supporters can get their hands on.

Certainly a Christian can be a bigot. But it's only by fabrication of those who already hold contempt and resentment for the Christian faith that Christianity is responsible for the bigotry.

The truth of the matter is that Christians believe certain things to be right and certain things to be wrong, like most other people. And when you ask, you get an answer. When you push for us to accept and involve ourselves in certain things that conflict with our beliefs about right and wrong, you get some pushback because we're less concerned with inconveniencing you than we are with offending God. And sadly, that desire to be faithful to God is often held up as "bigotry".

And there's something else, too. Some people like to hold up examples of Christian discussions as if Christians believe we're not vulnerable to the sins we talk about. Of course! How much juicier does that make the revelation when a popular Christian is found to be committing a sin? How much easier is it to paint Christians as some group of nuts who think we're perfect people charged with keeping everyone else in line?

 

[NightSwimmer]

Any belief that an atheist or another Christian, or someone of another faith disagrees with is easily labeled "bigotry" by those who find the beliefs irritating. And the irritation comes along when Christians won't vote a certain way or support a cause that needs every set of pipes its supporters can get their hands on.

Certainly a Christian can be a bigot. But it's only by fabrication of those who already hold contempt and resentment for the Christian faith that Christianity is responsible for the bigotry.

The truth of the matter is that Christians believe certain things to be right and certain things to be wrong, like most other people. And when you ask, you get an answer. When you push for us to accept and involve ourselves in certain things that conflict with our beliefs about right and wrong, you get some pushback because we're less concerned with inconveniencing you than we are with offending God. And sadly, that desire to be faithful to God is often held up as "bigotry".

And there's something else, too. Some people like to hold up examples of Christian discussions as if Christians believe we're not vulnerable to the sins we talk about. Of course! How much juicier does that make the revelation when a popular Christian is found to be committing a sin? How much easier is it to paint Christians as some group of nuts who think we're perfect people charged with keeping everyone else in line?

No. I understand what bigotry is and I also understand making excuses for it. Certainly, not all Christians are bigots. That said, bigots don't get a pass from me by claiming a religious exemption.

 

[gigi]

No. I understand what bigotry is and I also understand making excuses for it. Certainly, not all Christians are bigots. That said, bigots don't get a pass from me by claiming a religious exemption.

I have no doubt that you understand what bigotry is. But if you're not simply slamming Christianity with that label because you're annoyed that Christians get in the way of some things you'd like to see happen, then I think maybe you don't understand what Christianity is.

And what exemptions are you talking about?