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Bugsy McGurk

President
Yes, given Trump's surrender, Biden had a choice of shitty options. Could it have turned out worse? Yes. Biden could have rushed 50,000 troops into Kabul. How would that have turned out? How many American lives lost to Taliban attacks on us. Remember that we'd have limited support from the Afghan army. We'd have no support from our Nato allies, who had already withdrawn.

Biden didn't start with a clean slate.
They don’t believe in making constructive suggestions. They only believe in bitching about Biden.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
Yes, Afghanistan was a waste. After all those wasted years..a few more weeks or months to leave in an orderly fashion would have gone along way
You continue to pretend that Trump’s surrender deal didn’t inevitably lead to the total collapse. Such fiction is boring by now. It’s been refuted ad nauseam.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
You continue to pretend that Trump’s surrender deal didn’t inevitably lead to the total collapse. Such fiction is boring by now. It’s been refuted ad nauseam.
I contend it was failing for years and years. A waste.

Is that clear to you, or do I type it slower?

Factually. Biden extended the departure. It could have been handled better
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
I contend it was failing for years and years. A waste.

Is that clear to you, or do I type it slower?

Factually. Biden extended the departure. It could have been handled better
Nope. Not years and years. Trump’s surrender deal with the Taliban was the year before, and that’s true whether you type fast or slow. He left behind an inevitable disaster for Biden, which you blame on Biden.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Nope. Not years and years. Trump’s surrender deal with the Taliban was the year before, and that’s true whether you type fast or slow. He left behind an inevitable disaster for Biden, which you blame on Biden.
Nah. Afghanistan has always been a disaster. History doesn't change on your say so
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Yes, Afghanistan was a waste. After all those wasted years..a few more weeks or months to leave in an orderly fashion would have gone along way
You pretend that the Taliban would have allowed a further extension.

Trump signed the surrender in jan 2020. Other than most US troops....did he begin an evacuation of US citizens or allies?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
You are correct.

The Human Shields won't like it, but what you've posted here will continue to be correct all the same.
He extended it because it became obvious that an evacuation was needed because the Afghan army and government were collapsing.

From January 2020, when Trump surrendered, all but 2,500 of the US troops had been withdrawn from the country. Our allies had pulled all of their troops out. The Afghan army had lost 3,000 of their troops killed without US air support, thanks to Trump's ceasefire...which didn't include them.

While the evacuation was chaotic, it actually could have been much worse. If Biden had sent in more troops to hold the airport the Taliban could easily have shelled the airport from inside the city. They could easily have closed the airport all together.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
You pretend that the Taliban would have allowed a further extension.

Trump signed the surrender in jan 2020. Other than most US troops....did he begin an evacuation of US citizens or allies?
I don't. I pretended nothing. Neither extension or other

At the start of the Trump administration there were approximately 13,000 troops in Afghanistan. At the start of the Biden administration there were about 2,500 troops in Afghanistan.
Let me know your thoughts on that...
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
I don't. I pretended nothing. Neither extension or other

At the start of the Trump administration there were approximately 13,000 troops in Afghanistan. At the start of the Biden administration there were about 2,500 troops in Afghanistan.
Let me know your thoughts on that...
You keep mentioning the extension from Trump's agreed withdrawal in April 2021. Why?

Trump pulled the majority of troops out without even planning for the evacuation of US citizens or allies. I think Trump's plan to pull US troops out created a huge problem for Biden. There were not enough troops to hold both Bagram and Kabul airports. Certainly not enough to hold Kabul, itself.

Remember, that our allies and the Kabul government were not part of Trump's negotiation with the Taliban. Our allies pulled their troops out. The Brits had to rush 1,000 troops back to help evacuate their citizens and didn't manage an orderly withdrawal of their people either. The Afghan army lost 3,000 men during Trump's ceasefire and that had to have something to do with the end to US air support.

In my opinion, there should have been sufficient forces to hold Kabul and a perimeter around the city to keep the Taliban from being able to use artillery against the city. That would have permitted the orderly evacuation that would have been preferable. US forces alone were too thin to do that.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
You keep mentioning the extension from Trump's agreed withdrawal in April 2021. Why?

Trump pulled the majority of troops out without even planning for the evacuation of US citizens or allies. I think Trump's plan to pull US troops out created a huge problem for Biden. There were not enough troops to hold both Bagram and Kabul airports. Certainly not enough to hold Kabul, itself.

Remember, that our allies and the Kabul government were not part of Trump's negotiation with the Taliban. Our allies pulled their troops out. The Brits had to rush 1,000 troops back to help evacuate their citizens and didn't manage an orderly withdrawal of their people either. The Afghan army lost 3,000 men during Trump's ceasefire and that had to have something to do with the end to US air support.

In my opinion, there should have been sufficient forces to hold Kabul and a perimeter around the city to keep the Taliban from being able to use artillery against the city. That would have permitted the orderly evacuation that would have been preferable. US forces alone were too thin to do that.
Trump lost the election.... yes?
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Yup. And the Broncos lost their last gazzilion games. So?
How did things work in your world.? I've shown already earlier in this thread that the troop volume in Afghanistan over the course of the Trump administration reduced from 13,000 to 2,500. When you say so, what exactly do you mean? Trump lost the election therefore he vacated office correct? It reads to me as though he reduced troop volume by some 11,000 people. Do you disagree? After he left office whom do you believe is responsible for safeguarding any staff that remained in Afghanistan after his term in office ended?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
How did things work in your world.? I've shown already earlier in this thread that the troop volume in Afghanistan over the course of the Trump administration reduced from 13,000 to 2,500. When you say so, what exactly do you mean? Trump lost the election therefore he vacated office correct? It reads to me as though he reduced troop volume by some 11,000 people. Do you disagree? After he left office whom do you believe is responsible for safeguarding any staff that remained in Afghanistan after his term in office ended?
Yes, Trump reduced troop strength to less than the number needed to secure Kabul. How could Biden have restored the Afghan army to pre-surrender strength and confidence in the US?
How could he bring the 3,000 Afghan troops killed while they had no US air support back to life?
How could he force the 5,000 Taliban prisoners to return to prison?

How could he have forseen the collapse of the Afghan government and army?

How quickly could he have redeployed 50,000 or so troops it would take to retake Kabul from the Taliban who had already infiltrated the city?

I'm saying the damage Trump did was substantial. You seem to imply that Biden could easily restore the situation to pre-surrender status.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, Trump reduced troop strength to less than the number needed to secure Kabul. How could Biden have restored the Afghan army to pre-surrender strength and confidence in the US?
How could he bring the 3,000 Afghan troops killed while they had no US air support back to life?
How could he force the 5,000 Taliban prisoners to return to prison?

How could he have forseen the collapse of the Afghan government and army?

How quickly could he have redeployed 50,000 or so troops it would take to retake Kabul from the Taliban who had already infiltrated the city?

I'm saying the damage Trump did was substantial. You seem to imply that Biden could easily restore the situation to pre-surrender status.
Who said all that was necessary? Simply an organized exodus would have sufficed. I guess pretending all this other stuff was necessary is fun and all...
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Who said all that was necessary? Simply an organized exodus would have sufficed. I guess pretending all this other stuff was necessary is fun and all...
Would the Taliban have allowed a further extension? I'd doubt it. The Taliban controlled the city and they created the chaos. How the US could have brought a few hundred thousand refugees into the airport and organized their departure is something you should explain.
 
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