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60% of Republicans believe election "was stolen from Trump"

Zam-Zam

Senator
In December, 2020, Trump's Attorney General William Barr declared the U.S. Justice Department had uncovered no evidence of widespread voter fraud that could change the outcome of the 2020 election. Prior to that, every Secretary of State, Republican and Democrat alike certified their state's election results. All the judges, even Trump appointed ones, ruled against Trump's 60 some court challenges claiming election fraud. We've since learned that Trump tried to force his appointees at the DOJ to announce that the election was corrupt. They refused to lie for him. AG Barr didn't fall for Trump's con either and resigned his position later that month. Trump wants you to believe that he will be reinstated as president on Aug 13, 2021. Don't fall for the con.

None of that changes the essential truth of what I said.

You rely on the testimony of other people. You're taking it on faith.

That doesn't make you wrong. It simply means you don't know with absolute certitude, and likely never will.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
They may be. Still, that's an opinion, and unless you have counted all the votes yourself, you don't truly know. It's not possible for you to know.

You can make peace with that, or rage against it, or live in denial. It won't change the fact, however, that you're taking this, and every other election result, on faith.
Or you can evaluate the evidence offered by both sides and act as a juror in a court case would. Decide which is credible. If one side is shown to present false information time and time again...once their credibility reaches zero it becomes pretty easy to make a decision.....or you can resort to a wimpout and pretend both sides have presented credible arguments...which would be a lie.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
None of that changes the essential truth of what I said.

You rely on the testimony of other people. You're taking it on faith.

That doesn't make you wrong. It simply means you don't know with absolute certitude, and likely never will.
The essential truth is that judges in 60 cases have thrown Trump's lawsuits out. So none of the "evidence" presented to the court has been found to be credible...none, zero, zip...

All the way up to the US Supreme Court.

The Trump legal team claims to have thousands of affidavits which are from people who swear they saw fraud...except that very few of those affidavits have been presented in court. The ones that have were judged hearsay or irrelevant to the case.

The Trump legal team claimed the US Army raided a Dominion computer facility in Germany. That is laughable on it's face. Germany would not allow the US military to act in a law enforcement capacity in their country....and the fact is that the army says it didn't happen. Dominion says it has no facility in Germany....AND the entire idea that someone could actually change vote counts from Trump to Biden is debunked by the hand recounts....

Trump claimed thousands of dead voters voted for Biden in Georgia. The republican Secretary of State says their investigation found two. He's a f*cking republican who voted for Trump!

There is nothing at all credible on the Trump side...what part of that don't you understand? Have you ever been on a jury?
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
Or you can evaluate the evidence offered by both sides and act as a juror in a court case would. Decide which is credible. If one side is shown to present false information time and time again...once their credibility reaches zero it becomes pretty easy to make a decision.....or you can resort to a wimpout and pretend both sides have presented credible arguments...which would be a lie.
Yes, you can do all that. And, after that, you can deduce which is more likely, in your mind, to be true.

Of course, it would be folly to conclude that there is no possibility of your being wrong. Only fools are positive, etc., and all that.

So, you don't really know. You might convince yourself that you do, if it makes you feel better...Some prefer the illusion, after all.

Whatever you decide to believe is fine with me. It changes nothing, after all.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Yes, you can do all that. And, after that, you can deduce which is more likely, in your mind, to be true.

Of course, it would be folly to conclude that there is no possibility of your being wrong. Only fools are positive, etc., and all that.

So, you don't really know. You might convince yourself that you do, if it makes you feel better...Some prefer the illusion, after all.

Whatever you decide to believe is fine with me. It changes nothing, after all.
A little at a time we can wear down the morons who insist Trump is still the president. Looks like people are at long last giving up on the Dominion conspiracy, especially after Sydney Powell said nobody in their right mind would think she'd presented facts on the matter and it was just her opinion.

I do really know....because I'm aware of what the voter data base looks like...I've had a copy of the one here in Colorado. I know what is recorded. I know what the process is and that knowledge makes many of the accusations simply impossible to implement.

If you choose to stay on the fence, that is at least an improvement over insisting Trump is still the president and Biden is not.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
A little at a time we can wear down the morons who insist Trump is still the president. Looks like people are at long last giving up on the Dominion conspiracy, especially after Sydney Powell said nobody in their right mind would think she'd presented facts on the matter and it was just her opinion.

I do really know....because I'm aware of what the voter data base looks like...I've had a copy of the one here in Colorado. I know what is recorded. I know what the process is and that knowledge makes many of the accusations simply impossible to implement.

If you choose to stay on the fence, that is at least an improvement over insisting Trump is still the president and Biden is not.

What fence? I've taken a firm position - That being that neither you or I counted the votes, and rely on the testimony of those who did. Ergo, neither you nor I know for certainty, nor can we. We take it on faith. That is pure logic.

Whenever I hear someone who shouldn't invoke the term "morons", I am immediately reminded of Shakespeare's "As You Like It", specifically:


“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”

Act V, Scene I, Touchstone to William

So, hopefully, neither one of us will make the error of thinking ourselves wise, or insisting we know something which we obviously cannot.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
What fence? I've taken a firm position - That being that neither you or I counted the votes, and rely on the testimony of those who did. Ergo, neither you nor I know for certainty, nor can we. We take it on faith. That is pure logic.

Whenever I hear someone who shouldn't invoke the term "morons", I am immediately reminded of Shakespeare's "As You Like It", specifically:


“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”

Act V, Scene I, Touchstone to William

So, hopefully, neither one of us will make the error of thinking ourselves wise, or insisting we know something which we obviously cannot.
And then there are the things we do know. The election process specifically prevents the acts of fraud alleged by Trump and his legal team.

The machines cannot switch votes and then have a hand recount validate them. It just can't happen.

Audits were conducted by independent auditors. Each state has had more than one audit.

"Firm position"? Nah. You've avoided admitting just how little credibility is left to Trump.

It is more than just faith when it comes to the overwhelming evidence.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
And then there are the things we do know. The election process specifically prevents the acts of fraud alleged by Trump and his legal team.

The machines cannot switch votes and then have a hand recount validate them. It just can't happen.

Audits were conducted by independent auditors. Each state has had more than one audit.

"Firm position"? Nah. You've avoided admitting just how little credibility is left to Trump.

It is more than just faith when it comes to the overwhelming evidence.
I'm fine with you believing and insisting that you know things you can't know. Go for it.

It's all good, at least on my end.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
I'm fine with you believing and insisting that you know things you can't know. Go for it.

It's all good, at least on my end.
I've told you what I do know...and that is the checks and balances built into the system. I also know how little credibility is left to Trump, Giuliani or Powell.

Having evaluated the accusations against my knowledge of the process and the steady destruction of the narrative by election officials I find it easy to make a decision.

If Trump said fraudulent ballots were flown here from Mars aboard the Amazon space craft, would you give him the benefit of the doubt?
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
I've told you what I do know...and that is the checks and balances built into the system. I also know how little credibility is left to Trump, Giuliani or Powell.

Having evaluated the accusations against my knowledge of the process and the steady destruction of the narrative by election officials I find it easy to make a decision.

If Trump said fraudulent ballots were flown here from Mars aboard the Amazon space craft, would you give him the benefit of the doubt?
No. You've told me what you think you know.

What is actually possible for you to know is a different entity.
 

JuliefromOhio

President
Supporting Member
I'm going to repost this summary as I'd like my fellow reality-based, democracy-loving posters to feel free to use it to counter the election lies from Trump and his cultists.

In December, 2020, Trump's Attorney General William Barr declared the U.S. Justice Department had uncovered no evidence of widespread voter fraud that could change the outcome of the 2020 election. Prior to that, every Secretary of State, Republican and Democrat alike certified their state's election results. All the judges, even Trump appointed ones, ruled against Trump's 60 some court challenges claiming election fraud. We've since learned that Trump tried to force his appointees at the DOJ to announce that the election was corrupt. They refused to lie for him. AG Barr didn't fall for Trump's con either and resigned his position later that month. Trump wants you to believe that he will be reinstated as president on Aug 13, 2021. Don't fall for the con.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
I'm going to repost this summary as I'd like my fellow reality-based, democracy-loving posters to feel free to use it to counter the election lies from Trump and his cultists.

In December, 2020, Trump's Attorney General William Barr declared the U.S. Justice Department had uncovered no evidence of widespread voter fraud that could change the outcome of the 2020 election. Prior to that, every Secretary of State, Republican and Democrat alike certified their state's election results. All the judges, even Trump appointed ones, ruled against Trump's 60 some court challenges claiming election fraud. We've since learned that Trump tried to force his appointees at the DOJ to announce that the election was corrupt. They refused to lie for him. AG Barr didn't fall for Trump's con either and resigned his position later that month. Trump wants you to believe that he will be reinstated as president on Aug 13, 2021. Don't fall for the con.
Sure, but Trump tells them there was widespread fraud. And he’s the cult leader. Case closed.

;-)
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Seems unlikely, no?
As do all the other allegations from Trump. Meanwhile, all the information from various election officials is easily verified by the independent audits done in each of the battleground states.

So when you discount all the hearsay or the affidavits submitted that are shown false by the hand recounts....you are left with what?
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
As do all the other allegations from Trump. Meanwhile, all the information from various election officials is easily verified by the independent audits done in each of the battleground states.

So when you discount all the hearsay or the affidavits submitted that are shown false by the hand recounts....you are left with what?
You're left with what you believe to be most likely true.

You still, however, do not know for certain, simply because you can't.

You can still insist you know what you cannot know of course, but you still won't know.
 

JuliefromOhio

President
Supporting Member
You're left with what you believe to be most likely true.

You still, however, do not know for certain, simply because you can't.

You can still insist you know what you cannot know of course, but you still won't know.
Here we have Zam calling all 50 Secretaries of State LIARS.
Here we have Zam calling all the clerks of court and local election officials LIARS.
Here we have Zam calling 60 judges AND the Supreme Court LIARS.
Here we have Zam calling former AG Barr a LIAR.

I can go on, but it's clear Zam thinks the pathologicial LIAR Trump is telling him the truth. He gives credence to the nutcases who came forward with conspiracy theories to challenge election results. God help him.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
Here we have Zam calling all 50 Secretaries of State LIARS.
Here we have Zam calling all the clerks of court and local election officials LIARS.
Here we have Zam calling 60 judges AND the Supreme Court LIARS.
Here we have Zam calling former AG Barr a LIAR.

I can go on, but it's clear Zam thinks the pathologicial LIAR Trump is telling him the truth. He gives credence to the nutcases who came forward with conspiracy theories to challenge election results. God help him.
False premise. I have not called anyone a liar.

In order to do that, I would have to say I know with certainty....I am saying the opposite. If I admit I do not know, how could I possibly allege anyone is lying? Logic dictates that I cannot.

You need to rethink your position, assuming you thought about it the first time.
 

JuliefromOhio

President
Supporting Member
False premise. I have not called anyone a liar.

In order to do that, I would have to say I know with certainty....I am saying the opposite. If I admit I do not know, how could I possibly allege anyone is lying? Logic dictates that I cannot.

You need to rethink your position, assuming you thought about it the first time.
In essence, you're calling them liars.
You've positioned yourself to question the integrity, the oaths of office of ALL the people who conducted and counted and certified the 2020 election results.

You're listening to nutcases like MyPillow guy and Trump who want you to believe the election was stolen from Trump. Don't fall for the con.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
In essence, you're calling them liars.
You've positioned yourself to question the integrity, the oaths of office of ALL the people who conducted and counted and certified the 2020 election results.

You're listening to nutcases like MyPillow guy and Trump who want you to believe the election was stolen from Trump. Don't fall for the con.
No, I'm not.

This is just you making stuff up based on your own prejudices.
It's just stuff in your head.
 
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