NightSwimmer
Senator
Is it appropriate to bribe someone to perform a prayer in public?
This recently happened in Florida.
This recently happened in Florida.
A question regarding prayer.
- Thread starter NightSwimmer
- Start date
That seems a little hinky.
Doesn't feel right to me to bait any group like that.
Mr. Friscus
Governor
couldn't read the initial post, because I put them on ignore, but it doesn't surprise me at all to hear a drive-by bait question...
The post no doubt has the complexity of a preschool lesson...
The post no doubt has the complexity of a preschool lesson...
NightSwimmer
Senator
The bait wasn't by the poster but the article linked. That article told of an ex Navy chaplain who has offered to pay a graduate of a school to offer up a prayer at the graduation because an atheist group has said they would sue if such a thing is done.
The atheist group is wrong, of course, because I guess they are more concerned with their perceived right not to hear a prayer than they are about freedom of speech. But nobody should pay someone to pray just in order to antagonize some freakishly controlling group.
So I said the whole thing was hinky and it is.
Mr. Friscus
Governor
Ah yes.. the "Deny Christians the First Amendment" Crowd.
Hey, you can practice whatever religion you want, but if I have to hear about God, Jesus, or any prayer or anything like that, That's being IMPOSED onto me! I have the RIGHT to not hear what I don't want to hear!
Oh, and those crazy Christian parents who want to attempt to censor some things from their kids? WHAT AUTHORITARIAN BIGOTS!!!
Hey, you can practice whatever religion you want, but if I have to hear about God, Jesus, or any prayer or anything like that, That's being IMPOSED onto me! I have the RIGHT to not hear what I don't want to hear!
Oh, and those crazy Christian parents who want to attempt to censor some things from their kids? WHAT AUTHORITARIAN BIGOTS!!!
If you don't want to hear it don't listen.
the persecuted Christian weighs in. LOL
Mr. Friscus
Governor
NightSwimmer
Senator
As to your question, no, probably not. What if the student says "Allahu Akhbar" or something like that. Will the good chaplain pay up?
NightSwimmer
Senator
The chaplain specified a Christian prayer, so I doubt he'd be willing to pay for something else.
What is happening here is that the school district and the state of Florida have been toying with the idea of exploiting a loophole in the Department of Education guidelines regarding prayer at graduation ceremonies. The rules specify that students are free to speak of their own religious beliefs, so long as their speech is not directly influenced by the local school board.
The local school board has wisely decided to refrain from attempting to implement the policy recommended by the Florida state legislature. The chaplain is apparently not so wise.
Too much to hope that there is a student who speaks Arabic in the graduating class?
That being said, if it is student-initiated, isn't that OK under the Constitution? Not sure where the Our Father fits in a valedictory address, necessarily, either. Is that kind of speech supposed to be on behalf of the whole class, the journey of the valedictiorian, or some combination? I looked at the article, not sure what speeches they are talking about. If a student speaker wants to end with a prayer, is that not protected speech?
NightSwimmer
Senator
Yes it is, so long as it is offered up on the students own accord, without outside influence.
Guess that translates into "bribery = free speech" to a Republican?
Arkady
President
The rule isn't that hard to understand. You're welcome to pray. You can pray in public. I have no right not to hear you pray. However, you have no right to hijack public institutions to broadcast your prayers, or to give them the appearance of official endorsement. So, if you want to stand up in the village square and proclaim your faith, that's fine. If you want to erect a monument to your faith on the village square, that's not fine, since it gives the appearance of official endorsement.
What may be helpful is a simple "Golden Rule" exercise. Do unto others as you'd have done unto you. Simply imagine yourself in a society where the majority have religious views that are deeply offensive to you. For example, picture that the majority were Satan worshipers. Now, what rules would you want the majority to follow, in that situation? Presumably, you wouldn't want them pushing their Lucifer-praising prayers in a public school setting where your kids might feel pressured to join in. So, by the Golden Rule, you should not push your prayers in a public school setting where other people's kids might feel pressured to join in to something that deeply offends the parents. It isn't that hard. Just do unto others as you'd have done unto you.
Arkady
President
Student-initiated prayers can be OK in some contexts. It comes down to whether the context gives the appearance of official endorsement. That's why students using PA systems to pray have run into trouble -- since the school controls access to the PA system, if it picks and chooses which messages can be broadcast on that system, and it allows religious messages to be broadcast, it can imply an official endorsement of that religious message, which is a problem. I suppose a school could get around this with an "open mic" policy, that lets anyone use the PA system to broadcast any message, with no review, on an equal-access basis. But that's impractical for other reasons.
NightSwimmer
Senator
Me too. I'd have done it in a heartbeat. A thousand bucks is a thousand bucks. I wouldn't have been too proud to play a Pharisee for 5 minutes.
fairsheet
Senator
Of course back then, "a thousand bucks is a thousand bucks" would've been my ONLY thought process! In the here and now though, I do think that one of the best ways of confronting these fools, is to play them for fools.
