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According to the "conventional wisdom" on Ukraine...

middleview

middleview

President
Supporting Member
EatTheRich said:
NATO members certainly did.
Click to expand...
In 1918 there was a civil war going on in Russia. A number of nations sent troops to help the White Russian side. There was no NATO then and the people who led those countries are long gone. Those nations helped the Soviet Union in 1942, even though the Nazis invaded Poland with Russian help and Russia had made war on Finland with no provocation.

Foreign Relations then were at least as complicated as now.

www.rferl.org

When Americans Fought A War In Russia

Rare archival photographs capture the time U.S. troops and Bolshevik fighters battled each other in the Russian wilderness.
www.rferl.org www.rferl.org
.
 
Last edited:
E

EatTheRich

President
middleview said:
In 1918 there was a civil war going on in Russia. A number of nations sent troops to help the White Russian side. There was no NATO then and the people who led those countries are long gone. Those nations helped the Soviet Union in 1942, even though the Nazis invaded Poland with Russian help and Russia had made war on Finland with no provocation.

Foreign Relations then were at least as complicated as now.

www.rferl.org

When Americans Fought A War In Russia

Rare archival photographs capture the time U.S. troops and Bolshevik fighters battled each other in the Russian wilderness.
www.rferl.org www.rferl.org
.
Click to expand...
Then there is Germany’s invasion, the violations of Soviet airspace by the United States, etc.
 
E

EatTheRich

President
middleview said:
In 1918 there was a civil war going on in Russia. A number of nations sent troops to help the White Russian side. There was no NATO then and the people who led those countries are long gone. Those nations helped the Soviet Union in 1942, even though the Nazis invaded Poland with Russian help and Russia had made war on Finland with no provocation.

Foreign Relations then were at least as complicated as now.

www.rferl.org

When Americans Fought A War In Russia

Rare archival photographs capture the time U.S. troops and Bolshevik fighters battled each other in the Russian wilderness.
www.rferl.org www.rferl.org
.
Click to expand...
France actually held back its troops from confronting the Germans so they could aid the Finnish against the USSR, which attacked Finland as a matter of military necessity to shore up the defense of Leningrad.
 
E

EatTheRich

President
middleview said:
What current NATO member was not invaded by German in WWII? The Turkey, Spain, the US and Canada?
Click to expand...
Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary were Axis powers which joined in the attack on the USSR. Austria was in union with Germany, also a NATO member. Germany only invaded Italy after the overthrow of the German-backed fascist regime. Germany only invaded Hungary after the pro-Axis far-right government of Hungary proved itself unable to maintain its military commitments. German puppet governments in Croatia, Latvia, and Lithuania attacked the USSR.
 
middleview

middleview

President
Supporting Member
EatTheRich said:
Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary were Axis powers which joined in the attack on the USSR. Austria was in union with Germany, also a NATO member. Germany only invaded Italy after the overthrow of the German-backed fascist regime. Germany only invaded Hungary after the pro-Axis far-right government of Hungary proved itself unable to maintain its military commitments. German puppet governments in Croatia, Latvia, and Lithuania attacked the USSR.
Click to expand...
Yugoslavia declared neutrality when war broke out. The German army invaded and setup Croatia as an independent state...and installed a government.
 
Raoul_Luke

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Jack4freedom said:
Those are some very interesting and intelligent observations by Chomsky and The Pope. What all of this geopolitical interaction suggests to me is that we are still in the very early stages of our development as a species. Those at the highest levels of power here on earth are still spiritual midgets who think they are quite clever because they have accessed enough power to create huge amounts of material wealth by creating conflicts between different factions and selling battlefield expendables and super expensive defensive systems and Intel operations to both sides of the conflicts they create. Pretty primitive in my opinion.

To me the real question isn’t whether or not NATO is a threat to Russia and thus the invasion and murder going on right now. The question is that after WW II, the Cold War and the fall of the Soviet Union why doesn‘t Russia join NATO and the EU? Most of civilized Russia is closer to Berlin than it is to China. I do not think it benefits the Russian people for their leader/leaders to position them as a hostile loner who insists on playing the victim and lashing out at those countries who surround them.
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Well Jack, that is actually pretty profound, so thanks for being thoughtful in your reply. The simple answer? Because they were never asked. The MIC controls NATO and there's no way the MIC was going to let peace reign in Eastern Europe. After all, they have been milking that mutherf*cking cow for 70 years...
 
Raoul_Luke

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
middleview said:
The nations of the Warsaw Pact had been the victims of Russian occupation and military intervention for decades. They wanted to join for obvious reasons...self defense.
NATO was not looking to start a war by letting them join.

Putin had made too many comments about taking control of Ukraine for reasons more aligned with imperial empire than a threat from NATO.
Click to expand...
So that's the neocon position that ensures another 50 years of war. The MIC thanks you for your contributions.

Putin made just as many comments (perhaps more) that were conciliatory, early in his tenure. He was, of course, rebuffed. And then your hero, George W. Bush, offered NATO membership to Ukraine, and it was Katie bar the door.

It's not like nobody saw this coming:

 
E

EatTheRich

President
middleview said:
Yugoslavia declared neutrality when war broke out. The German army invaded and setup Croatia as an independent state...and installed a government.
Click to expand...
Yes, and said state and its institutions were the inspiration for present-day conservative-nationalist, pro-NATO Croatian political tendencies.
 
middleview

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Raoul_Luke said:
So that's the neocon position that ensures another 50 years of war. The MIC thanks you for your contributions.

Putin made just as many comments (perhaps more) that were conciliatory, early in his tenure. He was, of course, rebuffed. And then your hero, George W. Bush, offered NATO membership to Ukraine, and it was Katie bar the door.

It's not like nobody saw this coming:

Click to expand...
Wow...could your head get any further up Putin's lower gi?
 
middleview

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Raoul_Luke said:
So that's the neocon position that ensures another 50 years of war. The MIC thanks you for your contributions.

Putin made just as many comments (perhaps more) that were conciliatory, early in his tenure. He was, of course, rebuffed. And then your hero, George W. Bush, offered NATO membership to Ukraine, and it was Katie bar the door.

It's not like nobody saw this coming:

Click to expand...
And your solution? Oh...you don't have one. Russia doesn't have a legitimate excuse for the invasion except in your mind. Putin had too frequently admitted he wanted to reclaim territory of the former USSR. Yes, he mixed in criticism of NATO, but he also has lied so frequently as to give Trump a run for his money.

Just like when Hitler came up with excuses to justify his theft of land from Czechoslovakia and his invasion of Poland....Putin didn't miss the lesson from history.
 
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