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Fact -When the Civil War started, Lincoln asked Robert E Lee to lead all Union troops

middleview

President
Supporting Member
How would they know that would be the result? I agree it would have been a lesser nation -- that isn't the point. The point is that they did not say they wanted to destroy that which they wanted to leave.
Still trying to say that the war wasn't to preserve slavery, it wouldn't have destroyed the USA and the leaders of the rebellion deserve to be honored in public buildings and parks as heroes?

We disagree and no amount of meandering around the history of civil wars or slavery will change that. The rebellion would have destroyed the country as we know it today if either the South had won or if there had been no war at all and the south went their own way.

Did you know that there are statues of Lee and Longstreet at Gettysburg?

That is because the battlefield is also a museum of history.

http://gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/confederate-monuments/confederate-state-monuments/
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
How would they know that would be the result? I agree it would have been a lesser nation -- that isn't the point. The point is that they did not say they wanted to destroy that which they wanted to leave.
They also didn't say that they wanted to see over 600,000 dead Americans as a result of their secession....but that was predictable.
 

trapdoor

Governor
They also didn't say that they wanted to see over 600,000 dead Americans as a result of their secession....but that was predictable.
Actually, it wasn't. They thought, with some good reason, they'd receive recognition from overseas, and then come to a diplomatic solution that involved only the few skirmishes that happened right after Sumter.
 

trapdoor

Governor
Still trying to say that the war wasn't to preserve slavery, it wouldn't have destroyed the USA and the leaders of the rebellion deserve to be honored in public buildings and parks as heroes?

We disagree and no amount of meandering around the history of civil wars or slavery will change that. The rebellion would have destroyed the country as we know it today if either the South had won or if there had been no war at all and the south went their own way.

Did you know that there are statues of Lee and Longstreet at Gettysburg?

That is because the battlefield is also a museum of history.

http://gettysburg.stonesentinels.com/confederate-monuments/confederate-state-monuments/
Washington and Jefferson also wanted to preserve slavery -- when do their memorials come down?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Actually, it wasn't. They thought, with some good reason, they'd receive recognition from overseas, and then come to a diplomatic solution that involved only the few skirmishes that happened right after Sumter.
somehow that seems pretty fictional. Got a link to any leaders of the rebellion hoping for that?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Again, not the point. The point, according to you, was "fighting to preserve slavery." The break from Britain preserved slavery in the U.S. for 32 years. When do we destroy the Washington Monument?
It is the point...you take an out of context statement to suit your needs.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Actually, it wasn't. They thought, with some good reason, they'd receive recognition from overseas, and then come to a diplomatic solution that involved only the few skirmishes that happened right after Sumter.
They hoped for recognition from Great Britain...but had never gotten any indication that it would happen. That was hardly the kind of logical thinking that would have justified tearing the country in two and launching a war.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
No, I take it that it is the promotion of slavery that is the issue, as you said it was. So answer my question.
The point was whether or not Lee was deserving of praise, in spite of his leadership of an army intended to destroy the union in defense of slavery.
 

trapdoor

Governor
They hoped for recognition from Great Britain...but had never gotten any indication that it would happen. That was hardly the kind of logical thinking that would have justified tearing the country in two and launching a war.
Well, I think they actually assumed, more than hoped, that they'd be recognized by either Great Britain or France -- they had strong economic ties to both, and the former had been undergoing a bit of diplomatic friction with the U.S even before the war.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Well, I think they actually assumed, more than hoped, that they'd be recognized by either Great Britain or France -- they had strong economic ties to both, and the former had been undergoing a bit of diplomatic friction with the U.S even before the war.
So, if anything, they hoped for military supplies and even that Britain might be an ally against the USA...even more validation for my opinion.
 

trapdoor

Governor
The point was whether or not Lee was deserving of praise, in spite of his leadership of an army intended to destroy the union in defense of slavery.
But Lee would be no better or worse in that regard than Washington and Jefferson - -and the rest of the statement is factually wrong as Lee DID NOT fight to "destroy the union" a point already made.
 

trapdoor

Governor
So, if anything, they hoped for military supplies and even that Britain might be an ally against the USA...even more validation for my opinion.
In the actual event, they got a lot of supplies and bought their best naval ships from England, under the table for the most part. If England or France had recognized with full diplomacy, allied, and used their large navies to lift the blockade, well, history would have been very different. That the British didn't come in after the Trent affair was probably a surprise to almost everyone, and a genuine shock to CSA leadership.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
But Lee would be no better or worse in that regard than Washington and Jefferson - -and the rest of the statement is factually wrong as Lee DID NOT fight to "destroy the union" a point already made.
It was a point you tried to make but your opinion isn't any more persuasive to me as mine is to you.

If Lee had managed to win the war it most certainly would have resulted in a much weaker nation than we have today. He knew that and was indifferent to it.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
In the actual event, they got a lot of supplies and bought their best naval ships from England, under the table for the most part. If England or France had recognized with full diplomacy, allied, and used their large navies to lift the blockade, well, history would have been very different. That the British didn't come in after the Trent affair was probably a surprise to almost everyone, and a genuine shock to CSA leadership.
The CSS Alabama was manned by British sailors and could have resulted in a war with Britain...and you think the rebels gave a shit if the USA fell apart as a result of their war?
 

trapdoor

Governor
It was a point you tried to make but your opinion isn't any more persuasive to me as mine is to you.

If Lee had managed to win the war it most certainly would have resulted in a much weaker nation than we have today. He knew that and was indifferent to it.
True enough, but what Lee was fighting for was separation, not destroying the union.
 

trapdoor

Governor
The CSS Alabama was manned by British sailors and could have resulted in a war with Britain...and you think the rebels gave a shit if the USA fell apart as a result of their war?
I think the rebels wanted to separate from the U.S. to form their own country. What happened to the U.S. after-the-fact would not have been much of a concern of the newly-formed country which would have had problems of its own.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
True enough, but what Lee was fighting for was separation, not destroying the union.
The bottom line...he led an army against the United States Of America and doesn't deserve being honored with statues in the public square. If you want one on your property...go ahead.
 
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