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How we know that Trump’s intent in Ukrainegate was criminal

SW48

Administrator
Staff member
Supporting Member
One of the talking points of Trump and his GOP enablers is claiming that he was just seeking to combat corruption when he demanded that the Ukraine publicly announce investigations of the Bidens and the 2016 election crimes. Put aside how laughable it is to claim that Trump is really concerned with corruption anywhere in the world. Pretend that corruption bothers him and consider the following.

Trump wasn’t just “asking for investigations.” What he really did, both directly and through his co-conspirators like Giuliani and Sondland, was demand that the Ukraine president publicly announce those investigations. They even wrote out the “announcement script” and directed how it would be delivered - by the Ukraine president himself on CNN.

Announcing such investigations is the last thing one would do if actually interested in ferreting out corruption. Such investigations would be kept quiet so as not to tip off wrongdoers. But again, Trump and his toadies were not really interested in investigations - they demanded a carefully scripted public announcement of investigations.

There is only one possible reason for demanding that public announcement - to tar Joe Biden and give the Trump/GOP machine a concocted basis to argue that there was some doubt about the Kremlin’s role in the 2016 election crimes - that there was some basis to the Trump conspiracy theory to the effect that “The Kremlin didn’t do it; Ukraine did.”

In other words, it’s clear beyond reasonable doubt that Trump’s shakedown was in no way really related to pursuing legitimate aims of the United States. The sole reason for the shakedown was utilizing another nation - a rather desperate nation seeking to hold off Russia’s territorial advances - to announce an investigation to boost Trump’s 2020 election prospects. And knowing it’s criminal, Trump has compounded his culpability by directing his toadies to defy congressional subpoenas.

That is all obviously criminal on numerous levels. The only real question left is whether Trump’s congressional co-conspirators can throw up clouds of dust seeking to obscure the relevant questions and conceal what actually occurred from as many Americans as possible.

Here we go.
Elections have consequences.

Presidents do work in the grey area.

Trump treats people very poorly.

This isn't an impeachable offense.

Both sides are trying to get dirt on the other side, its what they do.

Trump ran on weeding out corruption and clearing out the swamp.

Hunter Biden isn't a candidate and also lived in the grey areas provided by the previous administration.

Nothing to see here. Slap him on the wrist and move on and try and dig up something that is actually impeachable.
 
D

Deleted member 21794

Guest
Elections have consequences.

Presidents do work in the grey area.

Trump treats people very poorly.

This isn't an impeachable offense.

Both sides are trying to get dirt on the other side, its what they do.

Trump ran on weeding out corruption and clearing out the swamp.

Hunter Biden isn't a candidate and also lived in the grey areas provided by the previous administration.

Nothing to see here. Slap him on the wrist and move on and try and dig up something that is actually impeachable.
I think even DemocRATS know they don't have anything impeachable. That's why Adam Schitt babbles about obstruction when his witnesses show up. If the Zelensky call were impeachable, they'd move right along with no care as to further witnesses showing up. This is all about a desperate attempt to sway public opinion with basically nothing. Leftists tend to overplay their hand in situations like this.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
Elections have consequences.

Presidents do work in the grey area.

Trump treats people very poorly.

This isn't an impeachable offense.

Both sides are trying to get dirt on the other side, its what they do.

Trump ran on weeding out corruption and clearing out the swamp.

Hunter Biden isn't a candidate and also lived in the grey areas provided by the previous administration.

Nothing to see here. Slap him on the wrist and move on and try and dig up something that is actually impeachable.
Of course both sides try to “get dirt” on the other. But we still have laws, and our laws prohibit receiving the assistance of foreign governments in elections. Our laws also prohibit extortion, bribery and obstruction of justice. And it’s a violation of a president’s oath of office and an abuse of power to subvert the nation’s interests to his own personal interests.

Calling all those crimes “gray” does not reduce their severity. Bribery, for example, is specifically enumerated as an impeachable offense in the Constitution? How could a president possibly commit worse crimes?
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
I think even DemocRATS know they don't have anything impeachable. That's why Adam Schitt babbles about obstruction when his witnesses show up. If the Zelensky call were impeachable, they'd move right along with no care as to further witnesses showing up. This is all about a desperate attempt to sway public opinion with basically nothing. Leftists tend to overplay their hand in situations like this.
As you give Trump a complete pass for ordering people to defy subpoenas issued in impeachment proceedings.

Another fine example of how Trump is destroying the rule of law in our country, aided and abetted by his rabble.
 
D

Deleted member 21794

Guest
As you give Trump a complete pass for ordering people to defy subpoenas issued in impeachment proceedings.

Another fine example of how Trump is destroying the rule of law in our country, aided and abetted by his rabble.
Three equal branches of government. If you think Trump did something by not preventing his subordinates from cooperating with people obsessed with destroying him, take it up with the courts.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
Three equal branches of government. If you think Trump did something by not preventing his subordinates from cooperating with people obsessed with destroying him, take it up with the courts.
They have taken it up in the courts. And Trump will lose. But his presidential strategy (like his business strategy) has always been to act in a completely lawless fashion and tie everything up in the courts. That strategy can succeed only because his rabble supports his lawlessness.
 
D

Deleted member 21794

Guest
They have taken it up in the courts. And Trump will lose. But his presidential strategy (like his business strategy) has always been to act in a completely lawless fashion and tie everything up in the courts. That strategy can succeed only because his rabble supports his lawlessness.
Going to court is the very essence of acting within the law. Your posts are becoming more incoherent with each passing day.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
Going to court is the very essence of acting within the law. Your posts are becoming more incoherent with each passing day.
Flouting long established congressional subpoena powers by ignoring the subpoenas and frivolously litigating is adhering to the rule of law?

Again, another example of how Trump and his cult are destroying the rule of law in this country.

P.S. The Trump cult often doesn’t even bother going to court. They just ignore the subpoenas, as ordered by Trump.
 

SW48

Administrator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Of course both sides try to “get dirt” on the other. But we still have laws, and our laws prohibit receiving the assistance of foreign governments in elections. Our laws also prohibit extortion, bribery and obstruction of justice. And it’s a violation of a president’s oath of office and an abuse of power to subvert the nation’s interests to his own personal interests.

Calling all those crimes “gray” does not reduce their severity. Bribery, for example, is specifically enumerated as an impeachable offense in the Constitution? How could a president possibly commit worse crimes?
I don't see any of that.

Trump most likely didn't even know of such laws and Hunter Biden isn't a presidential candidate. Definitely doesn't rise to the level of impeachment
 

SW48

Administrator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Of course both sides try to “get dirt” on the other. But we still have laws, and our laws prohibit receiving the assistance of foreign governments in elections. Our laws also prohibit extortion, bribery and obstruction of justice. And it’s a violation of a president’s oath of office and an abuse of power to subvert the nation’s interests to his own personal interests.

Calling all those crimes “gray” does not reduce their severity. Bribery, for example, is specifically enumerated as an impeachable offense in the Constitution? How could a president possibly commit worse crimes?
What is is funny is when Biden actually on camera did a quid pro quo with Ukraine, you couldn't care less.
 
Both sides are trying to get dirt on the other side, its what they do.
Using government resources to do so is impeachable.
Trump ran on weeding out corruption and clearing out the swamp.
His campaign promises don't absolve him of ethical behaviors
Hunter Biden isn't a candidate and also lived in the grey areas provided by the previous administration.
There is nothing wrong about what Hunter Biden did.
 

Bugsy McGurk

President
I don't see any of that.

Trump most likely didn't even know of such laws and Hunter Biden isn't a presidential candidate. Definitely doesn't rise to the level of impeachment
If Trump is actually ignorant of our laws, including laws against bribery, extortion, obstruction of justice, and seeking election help from foreign nations, he doesn’t get a pass for his ignorance of the law. But I think he’s fully aware of those laws. He’s just lawless. And he refuses to go under oath and testify about such things, and he even orders his people to defy subpoenas. His conduct is as impeachable as it gets.
 

SW48

Administrator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Using government resources to do so is impeachable.

His campaign promises don't absolve him of ethical behaviors

There is nothing wrong about what Hunter Biden did.
So whats impeachable? He looked into something and found nothing.

Its a nothingburger just like russian collusion
 
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