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I, too, am in favor of reparations.

eyesee

Council Member
Did they operate it in America ?
Because reparation is about America, not Africa. America was not bound by African laws or traditions. Black Americans were made into slaves here, before that they were just prisoners of foreign kingdoms of Africa thousands of miles away.
You aren't smart enough to make it worth speaking to you. So please stop replying to me. Though before I ignore you, keep this in mind. Slavery STILL goes on in Africa. They aren't prisoners. They are SLAVES. Just like the ones they sold to slave traders who then brought them to the U.S. back then.
 

Spamature

President
You aren't smart enough to make it worth speaking to you. So please stop replying to me. Though before I ignore you, keep this in mind. Slavery STILL goes on in Africa. They aren't prisoners. They are SLAVES. Just like the ones they sold to slave traders who then brought them to the U.S. back then.
Well, you can **** off. Nobody asked for your opinion in the first place, and it is obvious you can't keep up with the conversation if someone had asked you. So why don't you just stay out of this thread and start one based upon the ignorance you have shared in this one. That would be better than shooting your mouth off in a thread where you didn't even take the time to read the top post.

Apparently you have mistaken this forum for the Foreign Affair forum.
Nobody cares about Africa.
This is about America.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Two simple premises

The govt should not profit from reparations to the people it harmed.

The "if not for rule" in the law.
Meaning, in not for reparations would this investment, and profits exist ?

You create a govt financial instrument from all value of taxes paid by black Americans for 75 yrs into the future (which is the length of time the US govt existed and kept black in bondage). Since black Americans will continue to pay their taxes, the debt to the govt for this instrument would be fulfilled.

Now that financial instrument can be used to back reparations. Since any taxable income above what blacks would have paid or created by reparation financial activities would have to be rebated to the trust. This rebate would be used to repay investors, along with a portion of profits from business ventures funded by the instrument. So the instrument is govt backed but pays more than the govt would on its own financial instruments. Which should make it a more attractive investment than regular govt debt, but just as safe. Nor could you tax the investments of partners in the reparations operations. Which would make partnering attractive to large ongoing enterprises.
Your explanation doesn't make any sense to me....

Where does the money come from to put into the "financial instrument"?
 

Spamature

President
Your explanation doesn't make any sense to me....

Where does the money come from to put into the "financial instrument"?
You base it on taxes that will be paid.
I owe you $100 every year (taxes) in for 10 yrs, by law I will pay that $100 every year regardless.
Let me sell that $1000 worth (10yr x $100) of debt to investors right now.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
You base it on taxes that will be paid.
I owe you $100 every year (taxes) in for 10 yrs, by law I will pay that $100 every year regardless.
Let me sell that $1000 worth (10yr x $100) of debt to investors right now.
So you are taking a promise to pay taxes to investors? Sounds like a ponzi to me.

At some point you have to pay off the debt. If I buy the debt, when do I get my money back? Basically, you want me to buy an IOU. That still reduces federal revenue by that amount and that would have to be balanced by increasing taxes on everyone else or by selling bonds.

Face it...you are describing a shell game.
 

Spamature

President
So you are taking a promise to pay taxes to investors? Sounds like a ponzi to me.

At some point you have to pay off the debt. If I buy the debt, when do I get my money back? Basically, you want me to buy an IOU. That still reduces federal revenue by that amount and that would have to be balanced by increasing taxes on everyone else or by selling bonds.

Face it...you are describing a shell game.
No. The promise to invest in people and business.
Their return comes from business profits and tax rebates.
Since it would be immoral for the govt to profit, all taxes paid by businesses created and the individuals who work in them must be returned to the trust. Also, if the overall taxes paid by blacks rises above where it would have been without reparations, the govt has no right to those funds either, and that must be rebated.
From this there should be enough to pay investors back.

Black people will still pay taxes. But they will only pay what they would have paid without reparations. Federal revenue is not decreased if that revenue would have never existed without reparations.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
No. The promise to invest in people and business.
Their return comes from business profits and tax rebates.
Since it would be immoral for the govt to profit, all taxes paid by businesses created and the individuals who work in them must be returned to the trust. Also, if the overall taxes paid by blacks rises above where it would have been without reparations, the govt has no right to those funds either, and that must be rebated.
From this there should be enough to pay investors back.

Black people will still pay taxes. But they will only pay what they would have paid without reparations. Federal revenue is not decreased if that revenue would have never existed without reparations.
So an "investor" puts a $1,000 into a business to be owned by an African American who may or may not have had ancestors who were slaves....The company pays taxes that go into the "trust"? If the business owner pays more in taxes than he did before he started the business, that money is rebated to the individual and he then pays the investor?

So feature a restaurant opens next to mine...it is funded by the reparation plan...my business drops due to the new competition because he doesn't pay as much in taxes as I do...and can undercut my prices. Yeah, good deal.

I'm an investor and there is no way I'd put a nickel into this.
 

Spamature

President
So an "investor" puts a $1,000 into a business to be owned by an African American who may or may not have had ancestors who were slaves....The company pays taxes that go into the "trust"? If the business owner pays more in taxes than he did before he started the business, that money is rebated to the individual and he then pays the investor?

So feature a restaurant opens next to mine...it is funded by the reparation plan...my business drops due to the new competition because he doesn't pay as much in taxes as I do...and can undercut my prices. Yeah, good deal.

I'm an investor and there is no way I'd put a nickel into this.
This is meant to work on a large scale rather than individual small scale.
All the financing works through the trust. It sells the obligation and pays the investors. They decide who and what will be invested in. An ongoing business in partnership with the trust would have the excess rebated. A business started by the trust would have all taxes rebated, because without reparations it would have never existed. Also if the trust were to improve a designated area or zone the existing business increased revenue could not be taxed and must be rebated as it would fall under the same" if not for rule" as well.

Let's look at it in the other way. You are in a designated zone. If the trust invested in a variety of businesses near you and their existence increased your business traffic, wouldn't it be entitled to the increase in your tax payments ? If so, then you are more useful as a successful business than you would be as a vanquished competitor. Because the trust is making profit from restaurant money without having to open a restaurant.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
This is meant to work on a large scale rather than individual small scale.
All the financing works through the trust. It sells the obligation and pays the investors. They decide who and what will be invested in. An ongoing business in partnership with the trust would have the excess rebated. A business started by the trust would have all taxes rebated, because without reparations it would have never existed. Also if the trust were to improve a designated area or zone the existing business increased revenue could not be taxed and must be rebated as it would fall under the same" if not for rule" as well.

Let's look at it in the other way. You are in a designated zone. If the trust invested in a variety of businesses near you and their existence increased your business traffic, wouldn't it be entitled to the increase in your tax payments ? If so, then you are more useful as a successful business than you would be as a vanquished competitor. Because the trust is making profit from restaurant money without having to open a restaurant.
Pure magic, smoke and mirrors...no way you're selling that.
 

Spamature

President
1. Never been done.
2. No idea of return.
1. It is a bold new idea

2. No, the math hasn't been worked out in detail, but the return is there.

All business loan are based upon the idea that there will be future returns from the business that will be adequate to satisfy the debt and allow for profit and the assumption of ownership in regard to the borrower. This is really just a massive business loan to a specific population along with advantages most business opportunities don't have.

There is only one type of integration that has ever mattered in this country.
That is economic integration. Because it isn't based upon love or harmony, or altruism bestowed by one group onto another. It is based upon mutual earthly needs and desires of each. You can't have that integration without capital. This plan is about creating and leveraging that capital in an organized fashion to repair the damage and create economic independence.

Saying why it won't work would be better input than just saying it won't work.

Why do you think it won't work ?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
1. It is a bold new idea

2. No, the math hasn't been worked out in detail, but the return is there.

All business loan are based upon the idea that there will be future returns from the business that will be adequate to satisfy the debt and allow for profit and the assumption of ownership in regard to the borrower. This is really just a massive business loan to a specific population along with advantages most business opportunities don't have.

There is only one type of integration that has ever mattered in this country.
That is economic integration. Because it isn't based upon love or harmony, or altruism bestowed by one group onto another. It is based upon mutual earthly needs and desires of each. You can't have that integration without capital. This plan is about creating and leveraging that capital in an organized fashion to repair the damage and create economic independence.

Saying why it won't work would be better input than just saying it won't work.

Why do you think it won't work ?
You can't come close to what the return might be. Pig in a poke.

Not a chance I'd invest.
 

Spamature

President
You can't come close to what the return might be. Pig in a poke.

Not a chance I'd invest.
Why not ?
Are you saying that its investments in business wouldn't be profitable ?
Why do you think other businesses can pay back loans and a return on them without the benefits reparations would have, but the trust couldn't ?
 
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middleview

President
Supporting Member
Why not ?
Are you saying that its investments in business wouldn't be profitable ?
Why do you think other businesses can pay back loans and a return on them without the benefits reparations would have, but the trust couldn't ?
Do you have any investments?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Why not ?
Are you saying that its investments in business wouldn't be profitable ?
Why do you think other businesses can pay back loans and a return on them without the benefits reparations would have, but the trust couldn't ?
What you are describing is the equivalent of an IPO. Typically you know what the projections are...but not always. During the run up to Y2K there were a lot of startup companies for all sorts of businesses that entrepreneurs pushed. Many pulled in millions of dollars with little chance of actually becoming profitable. At least the investors could look at the business idea and judge their chances.

In this case all you seem to suggest is that an African American could apply for a loan for any business idea, regardless of any other criteria. Who then actually judges the idea?
With a mutual fund you invest in ones that have a history...A brand new fund founded by someone with no history would not do well...
 

Spamature

President
What you are describing is the equivalent of an IPO. Typically you know what the projections are...but not always. During the run up to Y2K there were a lot of startup companies for all sorts of businesses that entrepreneurs pushed. Many pulled in millions of dollars with little chance of actually becoming profitable. At least the investors could look at the business idea and judge their chances.

In this case all you seem to suggest is that an African American could apply for a loan for any business idea, regardless of any other criteria. Who then actually judges the idea?
With a mutual fund you invest in ones that have a history...A brand new fund founded by someone with no history would not do well...
You don't understand. While small and entrepreneur business is a component. It would not be the focus of the trust. Understand that the trust is a separate entity. It was meant to be separate and to have one originating purpose, to create a return on investment for investors. Reparation is handled by the other components. It would be several steps spanning both the Administration and the Trust before a brand new business would be approved for funding and backing by the Trust.

Example
ADOS1 CHART(1).png

A new business would have to go through :
Planning and assistance, before it was passed on to Eligibility and Support
before it could go to the Business Hub, which would work on development within the economic ecosystem, before it went the other side of the program, to the trust's New and Small Business and Analytics for integration into the ecosystem if it is decided that it would make a complementary component.
ADOS1 CHART(1).png
This is not a disorganized hand out to individuals. It is meant to serve a population for generations with the goal to raise the economic tide for an entire group.

Even the benefits are designed with the idea that they also serve a purpose to further the intent of returns on the investments, because they themselves are part of that investing, even if it isn't obvious at first glance.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
You don't understand. While small and entrepreneur business is a component. It would not be the focus of the trust. Understand that the trust is a separate entity. It was meant to be separate and to have one originating purpose, to create a return on investment for investors. Reparation is handled by the other components. It would be several steps spanning both the Administration and the Trust before a brand new business would be approved for funding and backing by the Trust.

Example
View attachment 76815

A new business would have to go through :
Planning and assistance, before it was passed on to Eligibility and Support
before it could go to the Business Hub, which would work on development within the economic ecosystem, before it went the other side of the program, to the trust's New and Small Business and Analytics for integration into the ecosystem if it is decided that it would make a complementary component.
View attachment 76815
This is not a disorganized hand out to individuals. It is meant to serve a population for generations with the goal to raise the economic tide for an entire group.

Even the benefits are designed with the idea that they also serve a purpose to further the intent of returns on the investments, because they themselves are part of that investing, even if it isn't obvious at first glance.
The more complicated and the more federal employees involved...the less likely it would come close to being profitable.
 

Spamature

President
The more complicated and the more federal employees involved...the less likely it would come close to being profitable.
There are no federal employees involved. The Trust would only deal with federal agency. The govt is involved only along the lines of financial instrument itself. There is no intention that this is to be run by the federal govt. The intention behind the outlined step are to protect the capital of the trust and align individual goals with the overall goal of the reparation ecosystem. Again, small and new business are a part of it, but not the focus. The outlined steps are more akin to handholding and preparation for the participant rather than bureaucratic hurdles they have to overcome.

The trust is meant to capture funds as it acts as a self-contained financial institution.
The, "if not but for rule", could be a powerful tool in this effort. I just gave you an example with designated zones and your restaurant under that rule on how it could capture income from a business it did not even invest in.

The trust also allows for large enterprises to partner with It by providing the investment funding, yet, the enterprise's profits from the partnership would be tax-free, as would be profits paid to investors. The Trust would be entitled to all individual taxes paid by employees of such business creations, along with its share of the profits from the venture. It is about creating the financial integration discussed earlier.

Neither would face a loss, since the trust puts up the funding when dealing with large enterprises and investors are protected by the fact that it's a govt backed instrument they're investing in. Both business and investors would have large incentives to join onto this venture.
 
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Spamature

President
The more complicated and the more federal employees involved...the less likely it would come close to being profitable.
Not only could it be profitable, but it could help the nation as a whole just by existing.
The amount of 75 yrs worth of taxes could not be immediately invested.
But it could in the meantime supplant foreign debt by exchanging the instrument for US debt until it can be used. Which would allow formerly foreign debt service payments to remain in the US and be put to work as immediate reparations funding instead of flowing into foreign coffers. The trust could even give the US a haircut on the rate it offers. Now the US is govt is saving money and redirecting what would have been an overall loss for the country into a positive.
 
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