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Idiocy beginning to eat itself.....

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Or start their own companies with under a hundred people. I'm sure. Still, it's the government who is costing people these jobs, so the government needs to be responsible for them.

These are people who did nothing wrong, and most aren't even infected.
"Most"? So who pays me if one of my employees spreads the disease in my restaurant and forces me to shut down while all of my workers quarantine? Who pays to repair our reputation as we hit the news as having been a super spreader site?

F*ck that. If you are not vaccinated you will not be scheduled to work. You only seem concerned about the finances of people who are so inconsiderate as to risk the lives of everyone around them. We are now checking vaccination records because we caught one employee who said he was vaccinated but wasn't.
 

Colorforms

Senator
No. They're costing themselves their own jobs. The government is merely acting to protect the rest of the people that work there, or patronize the facility, or are a patient, and so on. If they don't care enough to give a damn about their fellow citizen, their coworker, or the patient they care for, what's anybody going to say other than tough shit. Go out and find a bunch of like-minded individuals and open a and unvaccinated healthcare facility and see how many people patronize it
Again, I disagree. You can make the exact same argument for nearly anything. "All you have to do is get your tubes tied in order to bring down the population and help save the planet" You all for the government forcing people to get medical procedures in order to qualify for working in the US?

This does not, by the way, deal with the issue of natural immunization. People who have gotten Covid are better protected than those who have been vaccinated and they aren't allowed to work either. This isn't because we're 'saving our fellow citizen', this is about desperation on the part of the Biden administration and not caring about the constitution, the rule of law, or the power of the courts after they have stayed this mandate.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Again, I disagree. You can make the exact same argument for nearly anything. "All you have to do is get your tubes tied in order to bring down the population and help save the planet" You all for the government forcing people to get medical procedures in order to qualify for working in the US?

This does not, by the way, deal with the issue of natural immunization. People who have gotten Covid are better protected than those who have been vaccinated and they aren't allowed to work either. This isn't because we're 'saving our fellow citizen', this is about desperation on the part of the Biden administration and not caring about the constitution, the rule of law, or the power of the courts after they have stayed this mandate.
Well...no one is being forced. And it's not a medical procedure.
I'll agree with that last if you add and the GOP to the sentence
 

EatTheRich

President
LOL figures you can't address the subject.

But, please, argue for more dictatorial government. It's what fascists do. :)
I am addressing the subject. The childish refusal to get vaccinated does not make anyone a hero. It just puts us at risk, the same way unsafe food handling puts us at risk.
 

Boca

Governor
The government isn't mandating that you're not allowed to work, the government is mandating that if you wish to work within a government run or government supported facility that you please get a vaccination so that you decrease the risk of a co-worker dropping the hell dead from covid. I don't think that should be rewarded, but then again who am I.
Yet this Government is rewarding illegal immigrants who don't work and aren't even tested to come on in...no problem......where would you like to live, we'll fly you there.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Yet this Government is rewarding illegal immigrants who don't work and aren't even tested to come on in...no problem......where would you like to live, we'll fly you there.
Do you mean to say that prior governments weren't doing the same?
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Vaccination without consent is rape. As is coerced vaccination. It is immoral and unethical to do or the encourage/support such a thing.
Nobody is doing any such thing. Anybody being strapped to chairs and injected against their will? No they're not.

Anyway, we're addressing your rapey people comment..

Don't.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Vaccination without consent is rape. As is coerced vaccination. It is immoral and unethical to do or the encourage/support such a thing.
But since we're at it, what's your opinion on the following

How immoral and unethical is it to be the conduit for a globally uncontrolled illness that may take another's life.. cuz one is too self-centered to be bothered to take the vaccine?
 

God of War

Lets go Brandon!
But since we're at it, what's your opinion on the following

How immoral and unethical is it to be the conduit for a globally uncontrolled illness that may take another's life.. cuz one is too self-centered to be bothered to take the vaccine?
You're vaccinated, right? You're protected. Worst that can happen to you is you catch a cold for a few days and maybe pass it on to another vaccinated person and that one passes it on to another vaccinated person. Because that's how this "vaccine" works. Even it actually worked like a real vaccine you'd actually be protected and you'd have no demands to make on the unvaccinated. What you claim about self-centered and another's life is a lie.

Fundamentally, a real vaccine is about protecting oneself not anybody else.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
You're vaccinated, right? You're protected. Worst that can happen to you is you catch a cold for a few days and maybe pass it on to another vaccinated person and that one passes it on to another vaccinated person. Because that's how this "vaccine" works. Even it actually worked like a real vaccine you'd actually be protected and you'd have no demands to make on the unvaccinated. What you claim about self-centered and another's life is a lie.

Fundamentally, a real vaccine is about protecting oneself not anybody else.
Well that's a bunch of baffling bullshit right there. What's with you and the the worst that can happen routine.. aren't you the guy that's been posting incessantly about how the covid vaccine is no good, it's going to alter dna, cause hearts to explode and all that jazz

Quite the contrarian approach now with the the worst that might happen routine.

Anywho I honestly don't give a shit if people get vaccinated or not, it's their life not mine. I do however support their prohibition from such places as cohabitated workspaces, hospitals , schools, and so forth... Because the general welfare outweighs the specific self-centeredness of an individual every time.

Absolutely not a lie.. let's pretend for a moment that instead of covid it's the Black death, or polio going around.... Or some imaginary illness for which there is no cure.. don't pretend to me that you wouldn't do anything to safeguard those that you love from something potentially incurable, or that may bring about their death if they're exposed to it.
 

God of War

Lets go Brandon!
Well that's a bunch of baffling bullshit right there. What's with you and the the worst that can happen routine.. aren't you the guy that's been posting incessantly about how the covid vaccine is no good, it's going to alter dna, cause hearts to explode and all that jazz
I'm able to indulge your perspective. Clearly if all the potential worst happens being forced to take the vaccine is even more immoral and unethical.

Quite the contrarian approach now with the the worst that might happen routine.
Hardly.

Anywho I honestly don't give a shit if people get vaccinated or not, it's their life not mine. I do however support their prohibition from such places as cohabitated workspaces, hospitals , schools, and so forth... Because the general welfare outweighs the specific self-centeredness of an individual every time.
Nonsense. The general welfare is that of the vaccinated and they are protected according to you. And the particulars of this pandemic make it clear that the vaccinated get sick and pass on the sickness as much as the unvaccinated do. Your argument is simply false. Not only that if the unvaccinated can see how right you are they'd get vaccinated in due course because the example of life lived would propel the decision. At the moment it doesn't.

Absolutely not a lie.. let's pretend for a moment that instead of covid it's the Black death, or polio going around.... Or some imaginary illness for which there is no cure.. don't pretend to me that you wouldn't do anything to safeguard those that you love from something potentially incurable, or that may bring about their death if they're exposed to it.
So in your hypothetical is there a vaccine or isn't there a vaccine?
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
I'm able to indulge your perspective. Clearly if all the potential worst happens being forced to take the vaccine is even more immoral and unethical.


Hardly.



Nonsense. The general welfare is that of the vaccinated and they are protected according to you. And the particulars of this pandemic make it clear that the vaccinated get sick and pass on the sickness as much as the unvaccinated do. Your argument is simply false. Not only that if the unvaccinated can see how right you are they'd get vaccinated in due course because the example of life lived would propel the decision. At the moment it doesn't.



So in your hypothetical is there a vaccine or isn't there a vaccine?
I think the argument is pretty much on the money. The difference in my opinion is the following...
While vaccinated persons may also spread the virus, vaccinated persons incur exponentially less intense illness. Collectively therefore if we were all vaccinated everyone would be contributing to diminished risk of severe illness or death, making the situation much more manageable. Manageable in the sense that persons wouldn't need to be dismissed from work to safeguard others from the more severe risk of spreading on manageable illness between unvaccinated persons by and large, but also decrease the already smaller risk of severe disease between that smaller cohort of vaccinated persons that incur breakthrough infection.

As far as my example, if we're paralleling the current I would say we're talking about a vaccine
 

Boltlady

Mayor
Do you mean to say that prior governments weren't doing the same?
He was saying that if the gov't gave a damn about whether people got sick from this virus or not they would not be so selective about their mandates.

It has now been determined that having the vaccine does not preclude people getting the virus. Since that is now a fact what difference does it make as to whether you're 'protecting' those around you or not. Haven't you folks figured that out yet?
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
He was saying that if the gov't gave a damn about whether people got sick from this virus or not they would not be so selective about their mandates.

It has now been determined that having the vaccine does not preclude people getting the virus. Since that is now a fact what difference does it make as to whether you're 'protecting' those around you or not. Haven't you folks figured that out yet?

Who the hell is you folks? Just me. If you're hearing things or seeing other people that's not my problem.

It's not about determined, or now been determined, nobody ever said that it was going to preclude all variations of the virus, that's just some make believe that anti-science people need to carry on about as though they have some sort of point. Which they don't.

This vaccine was only ever intended to be about as good as the flu vaccine. Which hopefully you know, typically offers middling success at best, and has to be revised annually to keep up with the variability and mutation of influenza

Which as it happens is exactly what coronavirus does also. Which if any effort were made in the area of education would be understood to be what all coronaviruses do. Which is why there's no such thing as a vaccine for the common cold.

But what we do have here is a bona fide attempt to take a stab at it, with success at least to such a degree that it may prevent a person from dropping dead from covid-19

That's pretty goddamn good considering there was no such thing before.

All the rest of the Make-Believe pretend that this vaccine was supposed to stop it in its entirety is just that, make believe and pretend. And it should be summarily dismissed where encountered of those that peddle it as some sort of fact
 

God of War

Lets go Brandon!
While vaccinated persons may also spread the virus, vaccinated persons incur exponentially less intense illness.
What exactly does exponentially less mean? Have you subtracted the vaccine related illnesses and death? How? The Pfizer/FDA vaccine application documents won't be available for 55 years at 500 pages at a time. ha ha

Collectively therefore if we were all vaccinated everyone would be contributing to diminished risk of severe illness or death, making the situation much more manageable.
Exactly whose severe illness or death?

Manageable in the sense that persons wouldn't need to be dismissed from work to safeguard others from the more severe risk of spreading on manageable illness between unvaccinated persons by and large, but also decrease the already smaller risk of severe disease between that smaller cohort of vaccinated persons that incur breakthrough infection.
Your management issues over my bad cold is not my problem. Persons at work be they employees or customers who are unvaccinated only affect themselves because of their personal choice. Your governmental prerogatives are out of bounds concerning forced medical procedure and established human norms that can be found evolved as the result of the Nuremberg trials from which informed consent as a prime principle was conceptualized yet again. Ask Hippocrates and a number of other such physicians of historical note. If you want to find edge cases feel free but the fact remains it is not my moral duty to submit to any medical procedure let alone a questionable one for somebody else's benefit.

You're giving credit to a vaccine what is just as likely to have occurred naturally - epidemics become more contagious and less severe over time as a matter of the natural course of a disease.


As far as my example, if we're paralleling the current I would say we're talking about a vaccine
In your context with the vaccine it remains my informed consent to protect myself and loved ones, right? I don't see you having asked a novel question.

I'll indulge you. If I live in India or Africa, say as a "colonialist", I do get and give mine the polio vaccine despite the risk of vaccine acquired polio because of the native conditions of hygiene. Might even fly to the states for that purpose. On the other hand a polio shot, living in the U.S. at this time in history, I might consider at least delaying the vaccination of a child to allow for a more mature physical disposition and avoid potential adverse reactions. Given the understanding of polio it might even be advisable to only take the polio shot should it actually occur in a geographically near outbreak situation. Some vaccines have such a bad reputation that simply finding... nevermind you couldn't be bothered to watch Dr. Andrew Wakefiled's basement dwelling video. I'll just stop because it is literally pointless to reiterate what you can't be bothered to watch from a highly educated individual.
 
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