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If you're free to choose no vaccine...why aren't others free

EatTheRich

President
Well, let's look at the list:

Freedom to
- not have something injected into your body that you don't want
- not have to prove you are who you say you are to vote
- ignore border security laws
- not pay for services that you benefit from

I guess the obvious difference is that one has the government demanding to inject something into your body without your consent, or terrorize your life and economic livelihood if you don't comply.

The rest are laws on the books, and pretty crappy behavior if you want to avoid partaking in them. I don't see the connection.
What behavior is worse than contributing to the spread of a deadly pandemic?
 

EatTheRich

President
Well no... Voter ID is to prevent fraud, not because of some "civil society".

Meanwhile, sure, it would be great if the pandemic would end, but...

- COVID will never cease to exist, so as long as you're playing the zero-sum game, we'll always be "in a pandemic", and we'll continue to have mini-tyrant governors and politicians like Fauci make non-data backed claims of doom and gloom so they can continue to try to control the populace. They are not only avoiding the data, but are chasing an impossible goal, and condemning and bullying anyone who won't jump onto their insanity. And yes, forcing the populace to do anything based on a .0007% risk of death is insane. I expect all who demand this to never drive a car again, or leave their houses for that matter.

- The pandemic, as far as a pandemic is defined, is over. The numbers are still 95-90% less than when we were at the worst of it. It's now just a lingering strain. Cities are implementing major orders on their populace despite the fact that COVID deaths are like 3 times less than murder rates.

- Liberty is more important that safety, especially when that "safety" isn't nearly provable or defined. Lock downs and masks don't show any substantial improvements in suppressing the virus. The Vaccine is very effective, but if you're fine with condemning, pressuring, or forcing people to do something to their bodies, you're just falling prey to authoritarian convenience. I'm vaccinated, the vaccine is easily available to all who want it, and most of the fragile are already vaccinated. Kids under 18 are statistically largely not affected. Let those who aren't vaccinated choose if they want to risk it, the rest of us are safe, and the data comfortably supports my position.
But forcing them public to do something on the pretext of a 0.0000001% chance of inconsequential voter fraud, when the obvious real intent is to erect barriers that prevent lawfully registered citizens, especially those who are not white, from voting, that’s something else.

Meanwhile, the actual risk of death for someone who gets Covid is 1.8%, not .0007%, and vaccine refusal creates the conditions for the evolution of vaccine resistance and deadlier strains.
 

EatTheRich

President
Not only do I understand this (and indeed myriad complex things far beyond your grasp), but I have stated so.

Now then, how is what you posted here relevant in any way to what I posted (that vaxxed folks still shed and spread COVID)? This is now established fact - and this is why we (the aforementioned vaccinated people) are being required to once again mask up just like the unvaxxed are. So here we are. We have crazed people arguing - at once - that vaccination should be mandatory because it is selfish to spread the disease…and yet post-vaccination, people still spread the disease.

Ergo - stop with the talk about non-vaxers being selfish, non-vaxxers “killing others”, and non-vaxxers being compelled to vax. Busybody control freaks need to shaddap and get on with their own business.

(Do us both a favor and refrain from any impulse to load up a response laden with still more non-sequiturs - let’s keep it on topic AND relevant).
Post-vaccination, people spread the disease to about half as many people as the unvaccinated do since their immune systems dispense with the virus more quickly.
 

EatTheRich

President
Those that choose not to be vaccinated shouldn't be denied treatment simply for having opinions different than those approved by those in power. There are plenty people, including doctors, that disagree with the opinion that vaccination is the only way to combat this virus. It's ignorant and arrogant to think that only opinions that you agree with are right and pure and true.
The doctors who disagree are all podiatrists, dermatologists, etc. … not pulmonologists, cardiologists, internists, or infectious disease specialists.
 

RickWA

Senator
Post-vaccination, people spread the disease to about half as many people as the unvaccinated do since their immune systems dispense with the virus more quickly.
1) That is inaccurate relative to a given event, since “immune system dispensing with the virus” is a function of time - specifically, how much time has passed prior to exposing others

2) That is also not material to the discussion, since shedding/spreading/transmission occurs either way. If, for example, the delta variant is truly 1,200 times more communicable than prior covid iterations…even a somewhat shortened host window is problematic… right?

How on earth would you enter this discussion and try to mitigate the spread risk? Is it because Obama threw a big party and you need to do some DNC work?
 

RickWA

Senator
Alrighty then. Let's cut to the chase.

Should those that that won't get vaxxed be denied treatment in hospitals because of their self induced ignorance is causing a shortage of medical professionals because they're tired of said ignorance and are quitting their profession?
That’s not “cutting to the chase”. That’s changing the subject from: this virus being communicable whether or not one is vaxxed… to: not being vaxxed disqualifying one from medical and hospital treatment.

That said, I’ll answer your obligatory non-sequitur (which I predicted, as usual). No person should be refused care based on whether or not he is vaxxed. Shall we refuse care to illegals as well, since we don’t know whether they are fully vaxxed?

Look, I get it that leftists HATE America and Americans. There can be no other explanation for why you always want to saddle citizens with rules and restrictions that you give a pass to non-citizens for…but you need to nest your thoughts in logical fashion rather than doing this undisciplined stream-of-consciousness blather.

Organize your thoughts and be coherent.
 

write on

Governor
That’s not “cutting to the chase”. That’s changing the subject from: this virus being communicable whether or not one is vaxxed… to: not being vaxxed disqualifying one from medical and hospital treatment.

That said, I’ll answer your obligatory non-sequitur (which I predicted, as usual). No person should be refused care based on whether or not he is vaxxed. Shall we refuse care to illegals as well, since we don’t know whether they are fully vaxxed?

Look, I get it that leftists HATE America and Americans. There can be no other explanation for why you always want to saddle citizens with rules and restrictions that you give a pass to non-citizens for…but you need to nest your thoughts in logical fashion rather than doing this undisciplined stream-of-consciousness blather.

Organize your thoughts and be coherent.
Talk about a non sequitur. I made it clear that those that are vaxxed are less likely to die vs those that aren't.

What in that is so hard for you to understand?

Yeah, we leftists hate America so much we want it destroyed.

For what reason? How does that benefit anyone?
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
we were discussing freedom.
Indeed. Anyone can come up with a sort of "safety" to subvert liberty and freedom. What we have to do is look at the data and ratio of danger, and make decisions that are sensible with other things that cause death at a similar rate.

We aren't doing that right now. COVID has a straw with a spit wad in it and we're arming rocket launchers to combat it as far as theatrical strategies...

Because, there's zero evidence that mask mandates or shutdowns work. Yet, we have Democrat tyrants demanding them again. They won't bring up the data, because it says their ideas don't work. But I guess it's not about the data, it's about the intent, and they feel good if they at least do SOMETHING.
 

RickWA

Senator
Talk about a non sequitur. I made it clear that those that are vaxxed are less likely to die vs those that aren't.

What in that is so hard for you to understand?

Yeah, we leftists hate America so much we want it destroyed.

For what reason? How does that benefit anyone?
Way to ignore what is written. Back to the bottle with you. Good grief.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Indeed. Anyone can come up with a sort of "safety" to subvert liberty and freedom. What we have to do is look at the data and ratio of danger, and make decisions that are sensible with other things that cause death at a similar rate.

We aren't doing that right now. COVID has a straw with a spit wad in it and we're arming rocket launchers to combat it as far as theatrical strategies...

Because, there's zero evidence that mask mandates or shutdowns work. Yet, we have Democrat tyrants demanding them again. They won't bring up the data, because it says their ideas don't work. But I guess it's not about the data, it's about the intent, and they feel good if they at least do SOMETHING.
It kind of defies logic that this is just so e plot to subvert liberty and freedom. It's actually kind of daft in my opinion.

I'm hard pressed to accept as theatre the notion that we should keep distance, wash hands and accept a vaccination as a measure to decrease risk.

At this point I'll give you.. hysterical shut downs should be passed us at this point other than if there is severe turn of circumstance. Which I'm not overly sure we're past
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
It kind of defies logic that this is just so e plot to subvert liberty and freedom. It's actually kind of daft in my opinion.
Clearly multiple governors and mayors in our country have abused their power in the name of "safety" during all of this. I don't think they are "plots" as much as just the natural actions of people who don't put in the work of valuing individualism and the constitution. It's easier to just dictate, which is what they've done. Following the Constitution is difficult because you have to support it even if it benefits those you disagree with. The left largely doesn't do this.

I'm hard pressed to accept as theatre the notion that we should keep distance, wash hands and accept a vaccination as a measure to decrease risk.
The theatre is masks, and the exaggerations by the politicians and "scientists" that they are an answer. They aren't, and I can say that factually by the data. It doesn't mean nobody should wear them, but they aren't proven to change much, and they don't make you a better person. Mask mandates would be ridiculous given the data.. yet, here we have them being proposed by intelligent human beings.. thus, obviously it's politics, not "science".

Meanwhile, I think people should get the vaccine, but if someone is hesitant, I don't condemn them or make fun of them, as Biden does, along with Democrats and media. There is a legitimate reason to be cautious about a new vaccine, especially if you're young and healthy and don't have a risk of getting bad issues with COVID. If I were 20 I would definitely not get the vaccine.
 

write on

Governor
Clearly multiple governors and mayors in our country have abused their power in the name of "safety" during all of this. I don't think they are "plots" as much as just the natural actions of people who don't put in the work of valuing individualism and the constitution. It's easier to just dictate, which is what they've done. Following the Constitution is difficult because you have to support it even if it benefits those you disagree with. The left largely doesn't do this.


The theatre is masks, and the exaggerations by the politicians and "scientists" that they are an answer. They aren't, and I can say that factually by the data. It doesn't mean nobody should wear them, but they aren't proven to change much, and they don't make you a better person. Mask mandates would be ridiculous given the data.. yet, here we have them being proposed by intelligent human beings.. thus, obviously it's politics, not "science".

Meanwhile, I think people should get the vaccine, but if someone is hesitant, I don't condemn them or make fun of them, as Biden does, along with Democrats and media. There is a legitimate reason to be cautious about a new vaccine, especially if you're young and healthy and don't have a risk of getting bad issues with COVID. If I were 20 I would definitely not get the vaccine.
Why do you think there are those that are hesitant in taking the vaccine?
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Clearly multiple governors and mayors in our country have abused their power in the name of "safety" during all of this. I don't think they are "plots" as much as just the natural actions of people who don't put in the work of valuing individualism and the constitution. It's easier to just dictate, which is what they've done. Following the Constitution is difficult because you have to support it even if it benefits those you disagree with. The left largely doesn't do this.


The theatre is masks, and the exaggerations by the politicians and "scientists" that they are an answer. They aren't, and I can say that factually by the data. It doesn't mean nobody should wear them, but they aren't proven to change much, and they don't make you a better person. Mask mandates would be ridiculous given the data.. yet, here we have them being proposed by intelligent human beings.. thus, obviously it's politics, not "science".

Meanwhile, I think people should get the vaccine, but if someone is hesitant, I don't condemn them or make fun of them, as Biden does, along with Democrats and media. There is a legitimate reason to be cautious about a new vaccine, especially if you're young and healthy and don't have a risk of getting bad issues with COVID. If I were 20 I would definitely not get the vaccine.
Doesn't the constitution speak to the general welfare and common good?
 

Joe in Tulsa

Council Member
Why do you think there are those that are hesitant in taking the vaccine?
There are several reasons people may not want the vaccine. Some may have natural immunity, some may just not like taking medicine, some may have a phobia against needles, etc. Their reasons don't matter. If you want it, take it. If you don't want it, don't take it.
 

write on

Governor
There are several reasons people may not want the vaccine. Some may have natural immunity, some may just not like taking medicine, some may have a phobia against needles, etc. Their reasons don't matter. If you want it, take it. If you don't want it, don't take it.
Let's use what PhilFish said above about the Constitution. You know, the Preamble...

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

When did "me" replace 'we' in the Constitution?
 

Mr. Friscus

Governor
Doesn't the constitution speak to the general welfare and common good?
Not if it tramples your individual rights for no imminent reason. And that's what this would be, as right now the 7 day average is 516 people dying per day. Divide that by the population and you get enforcing things on the populace for a 0.0001% chance of death on any given day, or 0.05% chance in any year. That would be ridiculous by any measure in any time in history...

There are so many things that are more deadly than COVID, including
Heart Disease: 16.6% chance of dying in a year
Cancer 14.3%
Chronic Lower Resp Disease 3.7%
Suicide 1.14%
Opiod Overdose 1.09%
Fall 0.94%
Car Crash 0.95%
Gun Assault 0.3%
Pedestrian Incident 0.18%
Motorcyle accident 0.11%
Drowning 0.08%
Fire 0.06%
CURRENT COVID RATE 0.05%
Choking on food 0.04%
Bicycle accident 0.03%
Sunstroke 0.01%
Accidental Gun Discharge 0.01%
Electrocution, Radiation 0.007%
Sharp Objects 0.003%
Cataclysmic Storm 0.002%
Hornet/Bee Stings 0.0017%
Hot Surfaces 0.0015%
Dog Attack 0.0011%
Lightning 0.0007%


So, If I were you I'd get to telling your governor to outlaw fireplaces and lighters, as they could kill more people than the current COVID rate of 516 people per day.
 
to choose no voter ID? Or no legal immigration application? or no tax filing? Or to come to America riddled with disease? Etc ..
These things are no related.
I know around here we to pretend everything is everything so we can call each other hypocrites.
But hypocrisy has nothing to with it.
The anti-vaxxers are a combination of stupid, selfish, dishonest, and amoral.
 
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