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LOL! Whatta you know - wearing a mask DOES make a difference...

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Yep, I remember. My Fray days started in 2000. Back when there were still “conservatives” and “liberals” rather than what we see today.
Yeah, that was when I came on board as well. I just wanted it on the record that I predicted that George W. Bush was going to be the worst POTUS ever (at least up to that point). You look at just about any of our current problems, from intractable debt to eroded liberty to militarized police to the medical authoritarianism of the coved response to the war in Ukraine to the rich getting obscenely rich(er) while the middle class stagnates, to the resurgence of muslim terror to, heck, probably the green new deal, and you will see Booosh's policy DNA all over it. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
Yeah, that was when I came on board as well. I just wanted it on the record that I predicted that George W. Bush was going to be the worst POTUS ever (at least up to that point). You look at just about any of our current problems, from intractable debt to eroded liberty to militarized police to the medical authoritarianism of the coved response to the war in Ukraine to the rich getting obscenely rich(er) while the middle class stagnates, to the resurgence of muslim terror to, heck, probably the green new deal, and you will see Booosh's policy DNA all over it. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad...
It’s all so fluid. All those Bush era advisors and high-level “theory guys” described as “neocons” are all Democrats and/or Democrat heroes now. They simply shapeshift into the next acceptable iteration and remain viable (and cited as credible).

Screw personalities. I just want government kept in its proper box. Folks can re-badge as they see fit.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Everyone got it from their family/loved ones (as always with communicable diseases). The idea that you can get it just from being in the vicinity of someone with covid, without sharing some physical connectivity, is a farcical medical tyranny canard.

Yeah, they were (are) certainly more into masking than the average person. I could go into detail but I don't want to reveal too much. Let me just say that where I work is as close to a government bureaucracy as you can get without having a GS assignation. So you betcha that they were (and still are in many cases) masked to the hilt. Many wear the gloves too (and sanitize and distance). So don't sit there and try to tell me they weren't sufficiently compliant with the CDC protocols. You are simply (once again) talking out of your ass.

Yeah, people get sick (and die) all the time. Have you seen the study that suggests that a good portion of the covid deaths were not actually covid caused but rather the result of the intubations that were done early and often. How many of those deaths could have been avoided if the medical establishment had been more willing to consider Ivermectin and/or hydroxychloroquine and/or Zinc & vitamin B, before resorting to shoving a breathing tube down a frail old person's nose and throat? The number would probably stagger you (well, not you but certainly anyone who actually gives a sh*t about the truth).
What would stagger me would be anything close to the truth in one of your posts.
 

EatTheRich

President
Zerohedge cited a peer reviewed study and quoted the head of health security in Great Britain. Why are you always (ALWAYS) gaslighting every issue around here?
For “cited” you can substitute “mischaracterized” and to “quoted” you can add “out of context.”
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
What would stagger me would be anything close to the truth in one of your posts.
No one here documents their posts better than I do. I don't question your comments about your business so why would you question mine about where I work? Because (obviously) the facts show almost zero correlation between following the CDC guidelines and the spread rates of Covid. So you see your situation through an ideological lens that distorts everything into a view of "immaculate" government. I do not - my lens, in fact, is one of the clearest ones of anyone on here. I have no political bias - I simply take the side of the most obvious truth in every situation. I have moved so, for instance, I know that one guy grabs something and hands it to someone else, or one guy carries it on and another carries it off. Plus I suspect you guys ate together (you haven't denied that) and there are ample opportunities in that scenario to support that it spread through fomites and not the air.

You think because you documented that in a laboratory under very strict protocols masks were shown to stop "particles." No one disputes that. But that isn't the same thing as proving that masks reduce the spread of Covid in the real world. The science on that clearly comes down on the side of "it's bullsh*t."

I notice you didn't address this:

Results
The results indicate no difference in surgical site infections between the operations where masks were worn versus the operations where no mask was worn.

Clinical relevance of masks in the operating room? A systematic review - ScienceDirect

You simply ignore the data that doesn't support your biases whereas I always address it and explain why it either doesn't support what you are arguing or has been produced by people with an agenda or has so many inherent flaws as to be laughable. You still clinging to the "internet poll" that you used to try and debunk my op here? I see you gave that one a wide berth.

By the way, here's the data on intubation:

The investigators found nearly half of patients with COVID-19 develop a secondary ventilator-associated bacterial pneumonia.

“Those who were cured of their secondary pneumonia were likely to live, while those whose pneumonia did not resolve were more likely to die,” Singer said. “Our data suggested that the mortality related to the virus itself is relatively low, but other things that happen during the ICU stay, like secondary bacterial pneumonia,


Secondary Bacterial Pneumonia Drove Many COVID-19 Deaths - News Center (northwestern.edu) offset that.”

Now hop to the "fact checkers" who are all over the place denying that was the case, but that study's finding is pretty compelling, The "debunkers" claim the people would have died anyway from Covid if the secondary infection from ventilation did not kill them, but, well, that's not data, is it?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
No one here documents their posts better than I do. I don't question your comments about your business so why would you question mine about where I work? Because (obviously) the facts show almost zero correlation between following the CDC guidelines and the spread rates of Covid. So you see your situation through an ideological lens that distorts everything into a view of "immaculate" government. I do not - my lens, in fact, is one of the clearest ones of anyone on here. I have no political bias - I simply take the side of the most obvious truth in every situation. I have moved so, for instance, I know that one guy grabs something and hands it to someone else, or one guy carries it on and another carries it off. Plus I suspect you guys ate together (you haven't denied that) and there are ample opportunities in that scenario to support that it spread through fomites and not the air.

You think because you documented that in a laboratory under very strict protocols masks were shown to stop "particles." No one disputes that. But that isn't the same thing as proving that masks reduce the spread of Covid in the real world. The science on that clearly comes down on the side of "it's bullsh*t."

I notice you didn't address this:

Results
The results indicate no difference in surgical site infections between the operations where masks were worn versus the operations where no mask was worn.

Clinical relevance of masks in the operating room? A systematic review - ScienceDirect

You simply ignore the data that doesn't support your biases whereas I always address it and explain why it either doesn't support what you are arguing or has been produced by people with an agenda or has so many inherent flaws as to be laughable. You still clinging to the "internet poll" that you used to try and debunk my op here? I see you gave that one a wide berth.

By the way, here's the data on intubation:

The investigators found nearly half of patients with COVID-19 develop a secondary ventilator-associated bacterial pneumonia.

“Those who were cured of their secondary pneumonia were likely to live, while those whose pneumonia did not resolve were more likely to die,” Singer said. “Our data suggested that the mortality related to the virus itself is relatively low, but other things that happen during the ICU stay, like secondary bacterial pneumonia,


Secondary Bacterial Pneumonia Drove Many COVID-19 Deaths - News Center (northwestern.edu) offset that.”

Now hop to the "fact checkers" who are all over the place denying that was the case, but that study's finding is pretty compelling, The "debunkers" claim the people would have died anyway from Covid if the secondary infection from ventilation did not kill them, but, well, that's not data, is it?
1. You make assumptions to suit your bias...you assumed the four guys who worked to help me move ate together. We didn't. You assume all four may have handled things I carried to the truck, rather than simply being near enough for the virus to have been breathed in. One of the four only helped move a bed from my house to his own next door.

2. You continue to expend effort to tell everyone how right you are. Even when proven wrong.

3. You provide links that you think validate your opinions....the link to Tyler Durden's interpretation of the source study is a prime example. He cherry picked stats he liked and ignored the ones he didn't....like the rapid increase in covid when Norway relaxed mask requirements.

4. You have no political bias? Hilarious.
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
1. You make assumptions to suit your bias...you assumed the four guys who worked to help me move ate together. We didn't. You assume all four may have handled things I carried to the truck, rather than simply being near enough for the virus to have been breathed in. One of the four only helped move a bed from my house to his own next door.

2. You continue to expend effort to tell everyone how right you are. Even when proven wrong.

3. You provide links that you think validate your opinions....the link to Tyler Durden's interpretation of the source study is a prime example. He cherry picked stats he liked and ignored the ones he didn't....like the rapid increase in covid when Norway relaxed mask requirements.

4. You have no political bias? Hilarious.
Then he got it from someone else - was this during the omicron "surge?"

I back up everything I say, mostly with facts. You don't agree with my interpretation of the facts. That doesn't negate the fact that my facts are, well, "facts." You have "proven" me wrong once or twice and I admitted it. I have proved you wrong an many occasions and you just disappear from the thread.

I provide links to the facts. The study said what it said - every study has disclaimers like you used to try and suggest the study didn't find what it, well, found. I'm still waiting for you to give me the dates of that Norway "surge" because I'm almost certain I can find other nations that had similar performance WITH mask mandates in place. That isn't a "study" it's a narrative - where is the comparison to other countries' experiences?

I do not. You know full well that I voted for Clinton, Gore and even John effing Kerry. I also voted for McCain and Romney. Right now I am supporting RFK Jr., who is in no way shape or form, a Republican. No one here has a more bi-partisan ideology than me.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Then he got it from someone else - was this during the omicron "surge?"

I back up everything I say, mostly with facts. You don't agree with my interpretation of the facts. That doesn't negate the fact that my facts are, well, "facts." You have "proven" me wrong once or twice and I admitted it. I have proved you wrong an many occasions and you just disappear from the thread.

I provide links to the facts. The study said what it said - every study has disclaimers like you used to try and suggest the study didn't find what it, well, found. I'm still waiting for you to give me the dates of that Norway "surge" because I'm almost certain I can find other nations that had similar performance WITH mask mandates in place. That isn't a "study" it's a narrative - where is the comparison to other countries' experiences?

I do not. You know full well that I voted for Clinton, Gore and even John effing Kerry. I also voted for McCain and Romney. Right now I am supporting RFK Jr., who is in no way shape or form, a Republican. No one here has a more bi-partisan ideology than me.
1. Again...where is the fact you think you have to support the claim that the fourth guy got it somewhere else? He was in the same room with me and helped one of the other guys carry the bed. All four tested positive two days after working with me. Your "fact" that the disease is not airborne is backed up where?

You, of course, will ignore this because you don't like sources that disagree with you.

How the Coronavirus Spreads: Biggest Threats Are in Air, Not on Surfaces
CDC ties greatest risk for COVID-19 to airborne particles, droplets from coughs and sneezes

How COVID-19 Spreads: CDC Update Focuses on Aerosols (aarp.org)

2. Your headline stated masks don't work as a fact. That isn't what the source said. Your source stated the dates of the surge in cases in Norway.

3. I voted for Reagan and George HW Bush. I worked on McCain's campaign in the primaries 2000. I also voted for Perot....So what? I shifted from republican to middle of the road when the "conservatives" bought into deficit spending with both hands.
Your posts these days are right out of the RNC playbook.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Then he got it from someone else - was this during the omicron "surge?"

I back up everything I say, mostly with facts. You don't agree with my interpretation of the facts. That doesn't negate the fact that my facts are, well, "facts." You have "proven" me wrong once or twice and I admitted it. I have proved you wrong an many occasions and you just disappear from the thread.

I provide links to the facts. The study said what it said - every study has disclaimers like you used to try and suggest the study didn't find what it, well, found. I'm still waiting for you to give me the dates of that Norway "surge" because I'm almost certain I can find other nations that had similar performance WITH mask mandates in place. That isn't a "study" it's a narrative - where is the comparison to other countries' experiences?

I do not. You know full well that I voted for Clinton, Gore and even John effing Kerry. I also voted for McCain and Romney. Right now I am supporting RFK Jr., who is in no way shape or form, a Republican. No one here has a more bi-partisan ideology than me.
So what do you suppose happened here?

How a superspreader at choir practice sickened 52 people with COVID-19

How a superspreader at choir practice sickened 52 people with COVID-19 | Live Science
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Then he got it from someone else - was this during the omicron "surge?"

I back up everything I say, mostly with facts. You don't agree with my interpretation of the facts. That doesn't negate the fact that my facts are, well, "facts." You have "proven" me wrong once or twice and I admitted it. I have proved you wrong an many occasions and you just disappear from the thread.

I provide links to the facts. The study said what it said - every study has disclaimers like you used to try and suggest the study didn't find what it, well, found. I'm still waiting for you to give me the dates of that Norway "surge" because I'm almost certain I can find other nations that had similar performance WITH mask mandates in place. That isn't a "study" it's a narrative - where is the comparison to other countries' experiences?

I do not. You know full well that I voted for Clinton, Gore and even John effing Kerry. I also voted for McCain and Romney. Right now I am supporting RFK Jr., who is in no way shape or form, a Republican. No one here has a more bi-partisan ideology than me.
By the way....I flew into town on Thursday and was showing symptoms on Saturday, but tested negative twice on Saturday and once Sunday morning....I did not wear a mask on the plane. I did not have checked bags and went straight from the airport to the house we had just sold.

The idea that I somehow touched something with covid particles seem pretty lame....most likely breathing the same air as 100 people in a metal tube was the source.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
No one here documents their posts better than I do. I don't question your comments about your business so why would you question mine about where I work? Because (obviously) the facts show almost zero correlation between following the CDC guidelines and the spread rates of Covid. So you see your situation through an ideological lens that distorts everything into a view of "immaculate" government. I do not - my lens, in fact, is one of the clearest ones of anyone on here. I have no political bias - I simply take the side of the most obvious truth in every situation. I have moved so, for instance, I know that one guy grabs something and hands it to someone else, or one guy carries it on and another carries it off. Plus I suspect you guys ate together (you haven't denied that) and there are ample opportunities in that scenario to support that it spread through fomites and not the air.

You think because you documented that in a laboratory under very strict protocols masks were shown to stop "particles." No one disputes that. But that isn't the same thing as proving that masks reduce the spread of Covid in the real world. The science on that clearly comes down on the side of "it's bullsh*t."

I notice you didn't address this:

Results
The results indicate no difference in surgical site infections between the operations where masks were worn versus the operations where no mask was worn.

Clinical relevance of masks in the operating room? A systematic review - ScienceDirect

You simply ignore the data that doesn't support your biases whereas I always address it and explain why it either doesn't support what you are arguing or has been produced by people with an agenda or has so many inherent flaws as to be laughable. You still clinging to the "internet poll" that you used to try and debunk my op here? I see you gave that one a wide berth.

By the way, here's the data on intubation:

The investigators found nearly half of patients with COVID-19 develop a secondary ventilator-associated bacterial pneumonia.

“Those who were cured of their secondary pneumonia were likely to live, while those whose pneumonia did not resolve were more likely to die,” Singer said. “Our data suggested that the mortality related to the virus itself is relatively low, but other things that happen during the ICU stay, like secondary bacterial pneumonia,


Secondary Bacterial Pneumonia Drove Many COVID-19 Deaths - News Center (northwestern.edu) offset that.”

Now hop to the "fact checkers" who are all over the place denying that was the case, but that study's finding is pretty compelling, The "debunkers" claim the people would have died anyway from Covid if the secondary infection from ventilation did not kill them, but, well, that's not data, is it?
If you are correct...and the virus is not airborne...how in hell do super spreader events happen?

In late February about 175 executives from around the world came to the biotechnology company Biogen’s leadership conference in Boston. Over two days, attendees shook hands, talked among themselves and shared meals. Also in attendance: the new coronavirus. Several people at the event were unknowingly infected with the microbe that causes COVID-19, and it quickly spread among others there, who then brought it home. At least 99 people ended up sick in Massachusetts alone.

Around the same time, the coronavirus was spreading among more than 100 people who went to a funeral in Albany, Ga. sparking an outbreak that soon led to the surrounding rural county posting one of the nation’s highest cumulative incidences of COVID-19. The next month a single individual with the disease infected 52 people during a two-and-a-half-hour choir practice in Washington State. Two people died. In Arkansas, an infected pastor and his wife passed the virus on to more than 30 attendees at church events over the course of a few days, leading to at least three deaths. And these new cases spread to 26 more people, at least one of whom died.


How 'Superspreading' Events Drive Most COVID-19 Spread | Scientific American
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
If you are correct...and the virus is not airborne...how in hell do super spreader events happen?

In late February about 175 executives from around the world came to the biotechnology company Biogen’s leadership conference in Boston. Over two days, attendees shook hands, talked among themselves and shared meals. Also in attendance: the new coronavirus. Several people at the event were unknowingly infected with the microbe that causes COVID-19, and it quickly spread among others there, who then brought it home. At least 99 people ended up sick in Massachusetts alone.

Around the same time, the coronavirus was spreading among more than 100 people who went to a funeral in Albany, Ga. sparking an outbreak that soon led to the surrounding rural county posting one of the nation’s highest cumulative incidences of COVID-19. The next month a single individual with the disease infected 52 people during a two-and-a-half-hour choir practice in Washington State. Two people died. In Arkansas, an infected pastor and his wife passed the virus on to more than 30 attendees at church events over the course of a few days, leading to at least three deaths. And these new cases spread to 26 more people, at least one of whom died.


How 'Superspreading' Events Drive Most COVID-19 Spread | Scientific American
LOL! Seriously?

Over two days, attendees shook hands, talked among themselves and shared meals.

Hello, google "fomites" and then get back to me.
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
By the way....I flew into town on Thursday and was showing symptoms on Saturday, but tested negative twice on Saturday and once Sunday morning....I did not wear a mask on the plane. I did not have checked bags and went straight from the airport to the house we had just sold.

The idea that I somehow touched something with covid particles seem pretty lame....most likely breathing the same air as 100 people in a metal tube was the source.
Yeah, because none of those 100 people touched anything in that "metal tube."

How many of your fellow travelers got Covid? How do you know you didn't get it by touching stuff at the airport? The idea that you didn't touch anything at any time before, during or after your flight is "pretty lame."
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
So what do you suppose happened here?

How a superspreader at choir practice sickened 52 people with COVID-19

How a superspreader at choir practice sickened 52 people with COVID-19 | Live Science
That isn't a "study," nor is it data. It is an anecdote.

You should ask yourself - why weren't there hundreds or even thousands of such "super spreader events?

From your link:

...took a 15-minute break that included shared snacks of cookies and oranges,

I wonder if the covid guy prepared the "snacks" or possibly served them to the others. Why is it so important to you lefties that we all consider our friends and family as "potential vectors of a virus that might kill us all?" To keep us scared? No questions of the bureaucrats allowed? Or just to make it possible for paid ballot harvesters to take advantage of the covid induced mail in balloting to ensure Trump didn't win re-election? Perhaps all three?
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
1. Again...where is the fact you think you have to support the claim that the fourth guy got it somewhere else? He was in the same room with me and helped one of the other guys carry the bed. All four tested positive two days after working with me. Your "fact" that the disease is not airborne is backed up where?

You, of course, will ignore this because you don't like sources that disagree with you.

How the Coronavirus Spreads: Biggest Threats Are in Air, Not on Surfaces
CDC ties greatest risk for COVID-19 to airborne particles, droplets from coughs and sneezes

How COVID-19 Spreads: CDC Update Focuses on Aerosols (aarp.org)

2. Your headline stated masks don't work as a fact. That isn't what the source said. Your source stated the dates of the surge in cases in Norway.

3. I voted for Reagan and George HW Bush. I worked on McCain's campaign in the primaries 2000. I also voted for Perot....So what? I shifted from republican to middle of the road when the "conservatives" bought into deficit spending with both hands.
Your posts these days are right out of the RNC playbook.
Where's the CDC's data? You don't question them because you think they are "immaculate." I want to see the data. There is none - it is all based on theories, because you cannot measure "aerosolized virus." It's a convenient cudgel to beat us all into submission to their medical fascism.

Even the ones where I extol the virtues of RFK Jr? That is absurd!
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Where's the CDC's data? You don't question them because you think they are "immaculate." I want to see the data. There is none - it is all based on theories, because you cannot measure "aerosolized virus." It's a convenient cudgel to beat us all into submission to their medical fascism.

Even the ones where I extol the virtues of RFK Jr? That is absurd!
You judge all medical experts and doctors as attempting to control you...seek help.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Where's the CDC's data? You don't question them because you think they are "immaculate." I want to see the data. There is none - it is all based on theories, because you cannot measure "aerosolized virus." It's a convenient cudgel to beat us all into submission to their medical fascism.

Even the ones where I extol the virtues of RFK Jr? That is absurd!
Where is your data showing it is not airborne? Oh, you have none!
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
That isn't a "study," nor is it data. It is an anecdote.

You should ask yourself - why weren't there hundreds or even thousands of such "super spreader events?

From your link:

...took a 15-minute break that included shared snacks of cookies and oranges,

I wonder if the covid guy prepared the "snacks" or possibly served them to the others. Why is it so important to you lefties that we all consider our friends and family as "potential vectors of a virus that might kill us all?" To keep us scared? No questions of the bureaucrats allowed? Or just to make it possible for paid ballot harvesters to take advantage of the covid induced mail in balloting to ensure Trump didn't win re-election? Perhaps all three?
Let me remind you of your opinions, so solidly standing on a bed of mush...
1. COVID particles are too small to be stopped by a mask.
2. COVID is not aerosolized. your post #34
3. COVID is only spread by touching an infected surface....
4. If you wear a mask then the inside of the mask now is soaked in COVID.
5. You work at a business that rigidly adheres to masking. Your post #117
6. You and 10 of your co-workers sat, without a mask, in a meeting where one person had COVID and none of you got it. post #22

So if #2 and #3 are true then how in hell can #4 be also? How would #1 make sense? If #5 is true then how can #6 be?

Following you around this thread is like watching a pin ball machine....
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Let me remind you of your opinions, so solidly standing on a bed of mush...
1. COVID particles are too small to be stopped by a mask.
2. COVID is not aerosolized. your post #34
3. COVID is only spread by touching an infected surface....
4. If you wear a mask then the inside of the mask now is soaked in COVID.
5. You work at a business that rigidly adheres to masking. Your post #117
6. You and 10 of your co-workers sat, without a mask, in a meeting where one person had COVID and none of you got it. post #22

So if #2 and #3 are true then how in hell can #4 be also? How would #1 make sense? If #5 is true then how can #6 be?

Following you around this thread is like watching a pin ball machine....
LOL! If you wear a mask it becomes saturated in...wait for it...fomites:

1701735359093.png

Which are being ingested every time you breathe or open your mouth. But once the virus is released into the atmosphere, it quickly dissipates to such a low level as to be non-infectious.

Covid virus particles are way too small to be contained by a mask - remember, I demonstrated that with the study on operating room infections.

We are following the CDC guideline, which do not suggest mask wearing in every group setting, but only when exposed...you know, like after the horse is out of the barn? So none of us got it from being in the room with the infected person, but we were all required to wear masks for 10 days because we had been exposed.

You are the one pinging around the room here, not me. Just another example of how you twist what I say into something I didn't say and then you look for some pedantic detail that you deem "inconsistent" to "debunk" my argument. You are fooling exactly no one here...
 
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