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No votes counted yet, but Elder knows there is fraud

Zam-Zam

Senator
It isn't simply a matter of trust. There are systems in place that clearly do prevent substantial fraud. Something like 200 instances have been found and a handful of people have already been prosecuted. 200 out of 150 million votes.

The systems are set up to detect instances of fraud. We have been electing our president for 200 years and Trump is the first whiny POS to claim he won and the election was stolen...even though his own AG says there was no evidence of substantial fraud...certainly not enough to change the outcome. Trump's own director of Cyber Security said there was no evidence to support the accusation that election systems were hacked. So Trump fired him.

Trump called the GA secretary of state and demanded he find 11,000 votes to swing the election. Trumps legal team filed over 60 lawsuits and either lost or withdrew all of them. Even judges appointed by Trump tossed cases for not having any credible evidence...

Just thought I'd point those facts out.

I'm fine with facts.

I am also fine with your admission that it is a matter of trust, and not knowledge.

Ergo, since neither you nor I can actually know the degree of voter fraud which exists in any given election, neither of us should act as if we do know. That would be hypocritical, no?
 
We are on the internet. Smells fine at my house.
If it smells bad at your house you need to quit crapping your pants.
If you can't follow metaphor what else can't you follow. Moral argumentation would be my guess. Witnesses kicked out? Big moral problem. Those votes don't count.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
This is not about voter fraud (individual corruption). That is small potatoes. This is about ELECTION fraud (systemic corruption). Two different things really.

I believe my logic to be sound, whatever the scale may be.

Trust and knowledge are two different entities.
 

JuliefromOhio

President
Supporting Member
Elder is claiming that statistical analysis shows fraud in the recall election, but based on what? They haven't even counted ballots.


This is just what was predicted. Now that Trump has established that the loser should stomp his feet and whine that the other side cheated...we will never have an election that is accepted by the party of the loser...
That's a most excellent way for Republicans to destroy our democracy.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
I'm fine with facts.

I am also fine with your admission that it is a matter of trust, and not knowledge.

Ergo, since neither you nor I can actually know the degree of voter fraud which exists in any given election, neither of us should act as if we do know. That would be hypocritical, no?
Where did I say it was a matter of trust. My knowledge actually extends to an understanding of systems and cross checks. I've worked on campaigns and had access to the voter database in two states. They are pretty much identical.

I have posted in a number of threads how the suggested fraud could not have happened or would take a leap of Olympic proportions to think it possible.

Feel free to post any one of the accusations and I will explain again how it could not have survived scrutiny. I'd encourage you to skip over the one about the Dominion systems in Germany being raided...or the one about a link between Chavez and Dominion...that is obviously tin foil hat territory.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
Where did I say it was a matter of trust. My knowledge actually extends to an understanding of systems and cross checks. I've worked on campaigns and had access to the voter database in two states. They are pretty much identical.

I have posted in a number of threads how the suggested fraud could not have happened or would take a leap of Olympic proportions to think it possible.

Feel free to post any one of the accusations and I will explain again how it could not have survived scrutiny. I'd encourage you to skip over the one about the Dominion systems in Germany being raided...or the one about a link between Chavez and Dominion...that is obviously tin foil hat territory.

Mea Culpa, I read it wrong.

So you believe you do know, even though you couldn't possibly know. Unless, of course, you have counted all the votes yourself, you're taking someone else's word for it.

That's trust. You do not have first-hand knowledge, even if you insist you do.

Understand, I am not speaking of any particular election, this logic applies to all elections.

And while one may become aware of detected voter fraud, how could one be aware of undetected voter fraud? Or to what degree it exists? By definition, it's undetected.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Mea Culpa, I read it wrong.

So you believe you do know, even though you couldn't possibly know. Unless, of course, you have counted all the votes yourself, you're taking someone else's word for it.

That's trust. You do not have first-hand knowledge, even if you insist you do.

Understand, I am not speaking of any particular election, this logic applies to all elections.

And while one may become aware of detected voter fraud, how could one be aware of undetected voter fraud? Or to what degree it exists? By definition, it's undetected.
The hand recounts are not conducted by a single person. At each table there are multiple vote counters and each turns in a separate tally. If four counters at one table turn in counts that match each other as well as the machine count...do you still think it possible that they conspired to commit fraud?

I have first hand knowledge of the process of a recount and an audit.

If there were a way to conduct an election with millions of fraudulent votes and not get caught...don't you think experts would find it and close the loophole? That is what California is trying to do with the electronic poll books...so that the count is updated in real time to close the gap between counting and recording in person ballots and paper poll books and absentee ballots and the update to the voter database.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
The hand recounts are not conducted by a single person. At each table there are multiple vote counters and each turns in a separate tally. If four counters at one table turn in counts that match each other as well as the machine count...do you still think it possible that they conspired to commit fraud?

I have first hand knowledge of the process of a recount and an audit.

If there were a way to conduct an election with millions of fraudulent votes and not get caught...don't you think experts would find it and close the loophole? That is what California is trying to do with the electronic poll books...so that the count is updated in real time to close the gap between counting and recording in person ballots and paper poll books and absentee ballots and the update to the voter database.

What you do not have first hand knowledge of is all the votes as they are counted. Neither does anyone else.

You have to trust other people.

There's just no way around that.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
What you do not have first hand knowledge of is all the votes as they are counted. Neither does anyone else.

You have to trust other people.

There's just no way around that.
I also have to trust that in the absence of evidence, there is no Crime.

I also have to trust in my own ability to see bullshit when it tweets it's ugly head. If someone makes an accusation of massive Crime I an either trust that individual, even in the absence of credible evidence or I can evaluate their motivation and credibility.

I don't need first hand knowledge of every vote cast. I need to know under what set of procedures are they counted. Is it possible to submit fraudulent ballots in numbers that could change a national election? If you think there is, tell us about how that could be done.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
@Zam-Zam

Total commie thing to say. You of course don't expect any evidence because you EXPLICITLY don't allow for the collection of any.... say a forensic audit for one, nor partisan process witnesses for two...

Not to mention voter integrity laws being absurdly prohibited by the commie party.
Total fascist thing to say....You say there was a Crime, with no evidence, and therefore demand an investigation....disregarding the investigations and audits and recounts we've already had.

Has it hit you yet that Trump made specific allegations that have been disproven? He claimed thousands of dead voters in Georgia. The GA audit found two...both people who had voted early and passed away between when early voting started and election day.

Trump claimed there were more ballots than voters in several places. That too has been debunked.

Trump's lawyers claimed the US army raided a Dominion facility in Germany and seized computers. The DoD says that didn't happen.
 
Total fascist thing to say....You say there was a Crime, with no evidence, and therefore demand an investigation....disregarding the investigations and audits and recounts we've already had.

Has it hit you yet that Trump made specific allegations that have been disproven? He claimed thousands of dead voters in Georgia. The GA audit found two...both people who had voted early and passed away between when early voting started and election day.

Trump claimed there were more ballots than voters in several places. That too has been debunked.

Trump's lawyers claimed the US army raided a Dominion facility in Germany and seized computers. The DoD says that didn't happen.
I can't hear you without that forensic audit for four voting precincts in your hands. And don't forget to endorse voter integrity laws.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
I also have to trust that in the absence of evidence, there is no Crime.

I also have to trust in my own ability to see bullshit when it tweets it's ugly head. If someone makes an accusation of massive Crime I an either trust that individual, even in the absence of credible evidence or I can evaluate their motivation and credibility.

I don't need first hand knowledge of every vote cast. I need to know under what set of procedures are they counted. Is it possible to submit fraudulent ballots in numbers that could change a national election? If you think there is, tell us about how that could be done.
So....You need to trust.

Finally.
 
I'm fine with facts.

I am also fine with your admission that it is a matter of trust, and not knowledge.

Ergo, since neither you nor I can actually know the degree of voter fraud which exists in any given election, neither of us should act as if we do know. That would be hypocritical, no?
How do you not know the level of voter fraud?
 
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