Oh oh, lefty better start back peddling...

[middleview]

Is anyone talking to him about that deal (besides, of course, Elon Musk)? Why would we not want to help him find the "off ramp" on the road to armageddon?

Ok, first...withdraw all troops from Ukrainian land. Then agree to reparations for destruction caused by the invasion.

In return ask for immunity from prosecution for war crimes committed by Russian troops and a relaxation of sanctions.

How's that?

 

[middleview]

Sometimes I feel like the only one who wants it to end.

The guy who ordered the invasion has to want it to end...and he must be willing to give up what his troops have occupied.

 

[Raoul_Luke]

The guy who ordered the invasion has to want it to end...and he must be willing to give up what his troops have occupied.

Are we talking to him about that? He clearly indicated he thought Elon Musk's proposal had merit. Did anyone from Brandon's administration pick up the phone and offer to discuss it? Nah, the neocons are in charge and they want perpetual war so nothing less than total defeat of Russia is on the table. If you were Putin, how would you respond to that?

 

[middleview]

Are we talking to him about that? He clearly indicated he thought Elon Musk's proposal had merit. Did anyone from Brandon's administration pick up the phone and offer to discuss it? Nah, the neocons are in charge and they want perpetual war so nothing less than total defeat of Russia is on the table. If you were Putin, how would you respond to that?

Trump negotiated the surrender in Afghanistan to the Taliban. That should have been between the Kabul government and the Taliban.

It isn't up to us. Musk's idea is just what Putin wants...not what Ukraine wants. It is up to Zelensky. I wonder it Putin texted the peace plan to Musk and Musk just retweeted it.

Musk thinks a free and fair election in Putin's annexed Ukrainian areas could be done with Russian troops still in those areas. He doesn't say anything about the return of Ukrainian citizens from Russia and those who fled from the fighting to the west. Citizens should vote. Not Russian troops and not recent immigrants from Russia.

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Trump negotiated the surrender in Afghanistan to the Taliban. That should have been between the Kabul government and the Taliban.

It isn't up to us. Musk's idea is just what Putin wants...not what Ukraine wants. It is up to Zelensky. I wonder it Putin texted the peace plan to Musk and Musk just retweeted it.

Musk thinks a free and fair election in Putin's annexed Ukrainian areas could be done with Russian troops still in those areas. He doesn't say anything about the return of Ukrainian citizens from Russia and those who fled from the fighting to the west. Citizens should vote. Not Russian troops and not recent immigrants from Russia.

The idea that we aren't pulling Zalensky's strings is preposterous. Anyone who suggests that is unserious.

Again, when "regime change" is the only option on the table, how do you think Putin is going to respond?

Only someone who wants the killing to continue takes the position you have here.

 

[middleview]

The idea that we aren't pulling Zalensky's strings is preposterous. Anyone who suggests that is unserious.

Again, when "regime change" is the only option on the table, how do you think Putin is going to respond?

Only someone who wants the killing to continue takes the position you have here.

Only someone who wants Putin to be able to declare victory supports Musk's tweet. Why in hell do you think Putin jumped on it as a good idea? He knows that with his troops in those areas that he'll control the election. Pro-Kyiv residents have either fled to the west or been kidnapped and brought into Russia.

Let Putin keep Crimea. Really? Ukraine stays neutral? How is that enforced?

 

[middleview]

The idea that we aren't pulling Zalensky's strings is preposterous. Anyone who suggests that is unserious.

Again, when "regime change" is the only option on the table, how do you think Putin is going to respond?

Only someone who wants the killing to continue takes the position you have here.

Musk points out that Crimea was part of Russia since 1783...but it was part of Greece for two thousand years before that. Athens wants it back.

History of Crimea - Wikipedia

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Musk points out that Crimea was part of Russia since 1783...but it was part of Greece for two thousand years before that. Athens wants it back.

History of Crimea - Wikipedia

Yes, we know your position on that Mr. Cheney...

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Only someone who wants Putin to be able to declare victory supports Musk's tweet. Why in hell do you think Putin jumped on it as a good idea? He knows that with his troops in those areas that he'll control the election. Pro-Kyiv residents have either fled to the west or been kidnapped and brought into Russia.

Let Putin keep Crimea. Really? Ukraine stays neutral? How is that enforced?

Only someone who wants the war to last indefinitely (or worse, escalate into WWII) doesn't want Putin to be able to claim a "victory" even if it is the meager one of only keeping Crimea, no NATO membership for Ukraine and UN overseen elections in the disputed eastern territories. If we had offered that when he started amassing troops on the border, Ukraine wouldn't be being "wrecked" right now, as Mersheimer predicted over a decade ago.

 

[middleview]

Yes, we know your position on that Mr. Cheney...

Yes, Neville...as we know your own.

 

[EatTheRich]

Only someone who wants the war to last indefinitely (or worse, escalate into WWII) doesn't want Putin to be able to claim a "victory" even if it is the meager one of only keeping Crimea, no NATO membership for Ukraine and UN overseen elections in the disputed eastern territories. If we had offered that when he started amassing troops on the border, Ukraine wouldn't be being "wrecked" right now, as Mersheimer predicted over a decade ago.

How were “we” supposed to “offer” that? Ukraine is a sovereign nation and the sovereign power in eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.

 

[Raoul_Luke]

How were “we” supposed to “offer” that? Ukraine is a sovereign nation and the sovereign power in eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.

LOL! Then how the f*ck did Brandon get to fire their prosecutor general??? You guys can't have it both ways.

 

[middleview]

LOL! Then how the f*ck did Brandon get to fire their prosecutor general??? You guys can't have it both ways.

The EU, IMF, WORLD BANK and a handful of congressmen from both parties all were pressuring Ukraine to fire Viktor Shokin. Were they all trying to help Burisma or Hunter?

There were thousands of people in the streets protesting how corrupt Shokin was. Did they even know who Hunter happened to be? Do you know about the Diamond scandal?

‘Cache of diamonds’: Trump-Biden impeachment fight originates with corrupt chauffeur | Washington Examiner

In May 2019, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016, provided documents to Bloomberg News claiming that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.
Viktor Shokin - Wikipedia

 

[Raoul_Luke]

The EU, IMF, WORLD BANK and a handful of congressmen from both parties all were pressuring Ukraine to fire Viktor Shokin. Were they all trying to help Burisma or Hunter?

There were thousands of people in the streets protesting how corrupt Shokin was. Did they even know who Hunter happened to be? Do you know about the Diamond scandal?

‘Cache of diamonds’: Trump-Biden impeachment fight originates with corrupt chauffeur | Washington Examiner

In May 2019, Vitaly Kasko, who had been Shokin's deputy overseeing international cooperation before resigning in February 2016, provided documents to Bloomberg News claiming that under Shokin, the investigation into Burisma had been dormant.
Viktor Shokin - Wikipedia

But none of them gave them two hours or they were leaving with the foreign aid money. Which, of course, puts the lie to the idiotic notion that Ukraine gets to make their own decisions.

 

[EatTheRich]

But none of them gave them two hours or they were leaving with the foreign aid money. Which, of course, puts the lie to the idiotic notion that Ukraine gets to make their own decisions.

So your position is that the U.S. should apply financial pressure to induce Ukraine to surrender territory to Putin?

 

[RickWA]

The idea that we aren't pulling Zalensky's strings is preposterous. Anyone who suggests that is unserious.

Again, when "regime change" is the only option on the table, how do you think Putin is going to respond?

Only someone who wants the killing to continue takes the position you have here.

I remember studying in college a VERY KEY component of JFK’s eventually successful navigation of the Cuban Missile Crisis vs. Kruschev. Know what it was? It was/is in nearly all of the textbooks. In a word, “magnanimity”. That precise term is leveraged time and again. The exit plan afforded some measure of dignity preservation enabling a bit of modest face-saving for the USSR - and specifically its leadership. Corner an egomaniacal hardliner and you can’t necessarily expect measured, rational response.

I’m not suggesting concessions necessarily and ceding territory - or anything like that. I am stating clearly here that matching Putin’s rhetorical bluster and chest-puffery (the way all of the folks here keep writing “unconditional blah, blah”, “immediate withdrawal and blah, blah…”) doesn’t help. In fact, these same internet know-it-alls went NUTS when GWB was “cowboying” things with all that “for or against us” “axis of evil” talk… and WE - the USA - were actually attacked in that one.

Now…every PJ lefty is a hybridized John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and Rambo. Now that ISN’T “redneck swaggering” and “jingoistic xenophobic machismo”.

Just one more way JFK wouldn’t recognize Democrats.

 

[middleview]

But none of them gave them two hours or they were leaving with the foreign aid money. Which, of course, puts the lie to the idiotic notion that Ukraine gets to make their own decisions.

1. When did Biden deliver that threat?
2. When did they vote him out?
3. Who was the guy making decisions then? Who is it now?

 

[Raoul_Luke]

1. When did Biden deliver that threat?
2. When did they vote him out?
3. Who was the guy making decisions then? Who is it now?

"Riddleview" strikes again - when your posts are disproved you go into "twenty question" mode, which is simply an attempt to obfuscate. None of your questions disprove that Ukraine has been operating as a US puppet state for a decade. Which, of course, is why it is currently being "wrecked."

 

[middleview]

"Riddleview" strikes again - when your posts are disproved you go into "twenty question" mode, which is simply an attempt to obfuscate. None of your questions disprove that Ukraine has been operating as a US puppet state for a decade. Which, of course, is why it is currently being "wrecked."

If you bothered to look up the answers you'd see you were wrong.

 

[middleview]

"Riddleview" strikes again - when your posts are disproved you go into "twenty question" mode, which is simply an attempt to obfuscate. None of your questions disprove that Ukraine has been operating as a US puppet state for a decade. Which, of course, is why it is currently being "wrecked."

"Civil society organizations in Ukraine were pressing for his resignation," Kaleniuk said, "but no one would have cared if there had not been voices from outside this country calling on him to go."

In July 2015, shortly after his appointment, reformist minority member Yehor Soboliev advanced a motion to dismiss Shokin for corruption, gaining 127 of the required 150 signatures including several members of the ruling parties.[57] Representatives of the EU and the United States pressed Poroshenko for his removal,[3] as did the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.[4]

While visiting Kyiv in December 2015, then-U.S. Vice President Joe Biden warned Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko that, if he did not fire Shokin, the Obama administration was prepared to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees.
In March 2016 the Ukrainian Parliament voted overwhelmingly to remove Shokin, a decision which was welcomed by the EU.

What evidence have you shown to prove the US controlled Ukraine? If Ukraine was a puppet state, why didn't they announce an investigation into Joe Biden as Trump told them to do?