How did they identify the proxy systems? You seem to ignore revealing sources and methods would be stupid.
Thanks Fareed Zakaria
- Thread starter middleview
- Start date
georgephillip
Senator
What percentage of Ukrainians decided Yanukovych's actions were unacceptable?
Unacceptable to whom, BlackRock or Raytheon?
The violent coup that drove a duly-elected president from office was not an exercise in democracy, and it would not have happened without US support.
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/01/war-us-weaponized-ukraine-russia/
"NATO’s own records state that in 1992, 'Just four months after Ukraine’s declaration of independence' from the USSR, 'NATO invited its representative to an extraordinary meeting of the North Atlantic Cooperation Council, the body set up to shape cooperation between NATO and the states of the former Warsaw Pact.'"
"Russia did not propose a similar pact with America’s neighbors."
Zam-Zam
Senator
No.
We would likely have saved money if Obama, or Trump, or Biden had moved to bring Ukraine into NATO, which, sadly for all, they did not.
Zam-Zam
Senator
Of course Putin made a colossal blunder...It seems so obvious I'm surprised you had to ask.
I'm also willing to admit that, in hindsight, Obama Trump and Biden did nothing to prevent this war from happening after Putin and his thugs moved on the Crimea in March of 2014. That was a shot across the bow, and the US reaction was little more than a disapproving finger wave. That also appears to have been a colossal blunder - I can admit that also. Can you?
So you now think we should have gone to war in 2014?
Oh no! They had a meeting in 1992! And that led to war in 2022?What percentage of Ukrainians decided Yanukovych's actions were unacceptable?
Unacceptable to whom, BlackRock or Raytheon?
The violent coup that drove a duly-elected president from office was not an exercise in democracy, and it would not have happened without US support.
https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/01/war-us-weaponized-ukraine-russia/
"NATO’s own records state that in 1992, 'Just four months after Ukraine’s declaration of independence' from the USSR, 'NATO invited its representative to an extraordinary meeting of the North Atlantic Cooperation Council, the body set up to shape cooperation between NATO and the states of the former Warsaw Pact.'"
"Russia did not propose a similar pact with America’s neighbors."
You need to look up the rules on membership.
Got any links to back up that crap. Ukraine was a nation longer than the USSR was.
Last edited:
Edited for clarity;
I'd like know the number of the so called Ukrainian Nazi's there, would you?
Is it around the same number of Nazi's here that right wingers claim as 'not many' because they know that they vote Republican?
Last edited:
Where did the pro-Moscow separatists get weapons? Tanks? Artillery?
Russian troops had occupied Crimea in March 2014. Rioters in Donetsk and Luhansk occupied government building. They were armed by Moscow and aided by the "green men". Russia called them military veterans who had volunteered.
War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I did a little research and found this....
"A statement signed by more than 300 historians who study genocide, Nazism and World War II said Putin’s rhetoric about de-Nazifying fascists among Ukraine’s elected leadership is “propaganda.”
Good article on the subject here;
www.factcheck.org
"A statement signed by more than 300 historians who study genocide, Nazism and World War II said Putin’s rhetoric about de-Nazifying fascists among Ukraine’s elected leadership is “propaganda.”
Good article on the subject here;
The Facts on 'De-Nazifying' Ukraine - FactCheck.org
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky says Russia’s talk of “de-Nazifying” Ukraine is a non-starter in peace negotiations. We’ll explain what these claims are all about and why experts say they are misleading.
www.factcheck.org
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
I didn't think you would answer the first question. It's not like Ukraine is Poland or Austria - it hasn't existed as an independent nation for very long.Where did the pro-Moscow separatists get weapons? Tanks? Artillery?
Russian troops had occupied Crimea in March 2014. Rioters in Donetsk and Luhansk occupied government building. They were armed by Moscow and aided by the "green men". Russia called them military veterans who had volunteered.
War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia
Where have the anti-Moscow "separatists" gotten weapons? You really didn't think that one through.
Russia's claim on Crimea goes back two centuries.
It's pretty simple to see why they wouldn't want it in the hands of NATO.
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Soon after the Bolsheviks seized control in immense, troubled Russia in November 1917 and moved towards negotiating peace with the Central Powers, the former Russian state of Ukraine declares its total independence.
One of pre-war Russia’s most prosperous areas, the vast, flat Ukraine (the name can be translated as at the border or borderland) was one of the major wheat-producing regions of Europe as well as rich with mineral resources, including vast deposits of iron and coal. The majority of Ukraine was incorporated into the Russian empire after the second partition of Poland in 1793, while the remaining section—the principality of Galicia—remained part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and was a key battleground on World War I’s Eastern Front.
Immediately following the overthrow of the czar in February 1917, Ukraine set up a provisional government and proclaimed itself a republic within the structure of a federated Russia. After Vladimir Lenin and his radical Bolsheviks rose to power in November, Ukraine—like its fellow former Russian property, Finland—took one step further, declaring its complete independence in January 1918.
But Ukraine’s Rada government, formed after the secession, had serious difficulty imposing its rule on the people in the face of Bolshevik opposition and counter-revolutionary activity within the country. Seeing Ukraine as an ideal and much-needed source of food for their hunger-plagued people, Germany and Austria brought in troops to preserve order, forcing the Russian troops occupying the country to leave under the terms of the treaty at Brest-Litovsk, signed in March 1918, and virtually annexing the region, while supposedly recognizing Ukrainian independence. In the words of Wilhelm Groener, a German army commander in Kiev, "The [Ukrainian] administrative structure is in total disorder, completely incompetent and in no way ready for quick results. It would be in our interests to treat the Ukrainian government as a cover and for us to do the rest ourselves."
The defeat of the Central Powers and the signing of the armistice in November 1918 forced Germany and Austria to withdraw from Ukraine. At the same time, with the fall of the Austro-Hungarian empire, an independent West Ukrainian republic was proclaimed in the Galician city of Lviv. The two Ukrainian states proclaimed their union in early 1919, but independence was short-lived, as they immediately found themselves in a three-way struggle against troops from both Poland and Russia. The Ukrainian government briefly allied themselves with Poland, but could not withstand the Soviet assault. In 1922, Ukraine became one of the original constituent republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R.); it would not regain its independence until the U.S.S.R.’s collapse in 1991.
In 2022, Ukraine was invaded by Russia in an attempt to reclaim the country as a Russian territory.
Ukraine declares its independence (history.com)
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Who knows, did they?
On July 29, 2016 – just one week after WikiLeaks released a trove of embarrassing Democratic Party emails – the FBI drafted a press release on what it called “a possible cyber intrusion involving the DCCC.” Trainor contacted Sussmann for input.
“A draft response is provided below,” Trainor wrote. “Wanted to get your thoughts on this prior to sending out.”
In response, Sussmann took exception with the FBI’s mention of a “possible” hack. This qualifier, he noted, contradicted the Clinton campaign’s messaging on a Russian intrusion.
“The draft you sent says only that the FBI is aware of media reports; it does not say that the FBI is aware of the intrusion that the DCCC reported,” Sussmann wrote. “Indeed, it refers only to a ‘possible’ cyber intrusion and in that way undermines what the DCCC said in its statement (or at least calls into question what the DCCC said).”
Accordingly, Sussmann suggested new language that removed the FBI’s caveat of a “possible” hack. Trainor accepted the Clinton lawyer’s edit. “I am fine with the below suggestions,” he wrote.
The FBI’s failure to obtain both direct access to the DNC servers and unredacted copies of the CrowdStrike reports further calls into question U.S. intelligence officials’ claim that Russia hacked the DNC.
On October 7, 2016, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) issued a joint statement claiming, for the first time, that the “U.S. Intelligence Community is confident that the Russian Government directed the recent compromises of e-mails” from the Democratic Party. Jeh Johnson, who then served as DHS secretary, later testified that President Obama “approved the statement” and “wanted us to make [it].”
Yet as Durham’s Sussmann-FBI emails confirm, this Obama-approved claim was released one week before CrowdStrike denied the FBI’s request for an “onsite” inspection. This timing means that when the intelligence community made its first public attribution of Russian hacking, it had not only failed to inspect the servers, but had not even received CrowdStrike’s copies of them.
When the FBI and DHS released a more detailed report two months later, the document described the alleged Russian hacking effort as "likely leading to the exfiltration of information" from Democratic Party networks. (Emphasis added.)
The Mueller probe, having also relied on CrowdStrike’s forensics, failed to add any more certainty. Mueller’s final report of April 2019 likewise stated that Russian intelligence "appear to have stolen thousands of emails and attachments" from Democratic Party servers. (Emphasis added.)
Read in retrospect, these qualifiers – "likely" and "appear" ‒ signaled that U.S. intelligence lacked concrete evidence for their Russian hacking claims, given that CrowdStrike and the Clinton campaign had denied the FBI full access to the digital crime scene. The material emerging from Durham’s probe newly confirms this significant evidentiary hole.
Russiagate Prober Durham Neglected DNC Hack Claim, Despite Evidence It Too Was a Democrat Sham
By Aaron Maté, RealClearInvestigationsJune 6, 2023 Special Counsel John Durham’s final report faults the FBI for opening the Trump-Russia collusion investigation on baseless grounds and r
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Where did I say he wouldn't win? That has nothing to do with how good of a job he is doing. If he can't get the votes legitimately, the DNC ground troops will manufacture them (again).
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
I did - it was supposition.
Zam-Zam
Senator
I have. So what?
Zam-Zam
Senator
I never said anything anywhere close to that.
You said this:
Putin invaded because Ukraine did not have a military alliance. If they'd been a member of NATO he wouldn't have dared.
I agreed.
And if any one of the three Presidents mentioned had used their influence as leader of the free world for NATO to accept Ukraine as a member, the entire war could have been avoided.
Doing nothing lead us exactly to where we are now.
Opportunity missed.
Ukraine was an independent nation in 1917 until invaded and conquered by the Bolsheviks. They were a republic within the Soviet Union until 1991.
Ukrainian nationalism - Wikipedia
Nato membership is available to any nation not involved in a war at the time of the application. All members must vote and it must be unanimous.
I am not aware of what communications had taken place before 2014...but Russian invasion of Crimea and Donbas would have prevented a vote.
I do think Obama should have ramped up military aid at the time. The only weapons sent to Ukraine from 2014 to 2021 were a handful of Javelins that Trump sent, but required they be kept far away from Russian lines.
If Ukraine had been armed with the kind of equipment we've sent since 2022, Putin would have been hard pressed to invade....or he might have used that as an excuse to invade earlier...
