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Trump fooled twice

middleview

President
Supporting Member
They were card carrying communists in places of power or significant influence. Alger Hiss is a clear example among others that indeed we were infiltrated by a foreign ideological movement every bit as vile as Nazism.

And before, during, and after they were all free to leave and start over in political climates more suited to their preferences.
Even then belonging to the communist party was not illegal.
Persecuting someone on a rumor is more like Salem than actual justice. Did we go after a pro-nazi like Lindberg or Bush?
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Much of what he said was true. He may have gone too far at some point but the good was lasting. Again, the communists were free to leave. The world is wide.
He made a speech in which he claimed to have a list of 205 communists in the State Department. He lied. There was no list. The paper he held up was blank.

McCarthy claimed to have a list of 130 communists working in defense plants. He never produced that list.

McCarthy was finally censured by a vote of 67 to 22. Tail Gunner Joe died a drunk of hepatitis in his 40's and Cohn died of aids.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
What McCarthy did was protect America. Nobody was imprisoned nor taken out and shot. They were shunned. Society has to have a way to correct anti-social behavior and that has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment rights. Those people could have packed up and gone anywhere to live their lives as they saw fit. They could have gone to the USSR.



No, they are different men who have accomplished different things despite different foibles.
In 1947, when anti-communist fear took root in America, Trumbo was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee. He refused to give the names of colleagues with supposedly communist sympathies and was imprisoned for 11 months.

The paranoia whipped up by the Republican Senator Joseph McCarthy throughout the 1950s had a devastating impact on many Americans unfairly accused of leftwing subversion. In Hollywood, more than 300 artists were boycotted by the studios. Some, such as Charlie Chaplin, Orson Welles and Paul Robeson, emigrated or went underground.

 
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They were card carrying communists in places of power or significant influence. Alger Hiss is a clear example among others that indeed we were infiltrated by a foreign ideological movement every bit as vile as Nazism.

And before, during, and after they were all free to leave and start over in political climates more suited to their preferences.
No, actually they weren't.

Most of it was wild accusations with no evidence.

innocent proven guilty.

He couldn't prove they were guilty of anything.

He was an un American POS.
 
No, actually they weren't.

Most of it was wild accusations with no evidence.

innocent proven guilty.

He couldn't prove they were guilty of anything. D

He was an un American POS.
There were communists and communist sympathizers throughout government. China becoming communist was facilitated by their presence in the State Dept. of the time.

I'm not going to re-litigate the Red Scare but it did what it was intended to do which was stop the red advance in this country and it did so for a number of decades. Nobody was arrested, beaten, tortured, forcibly deported, taken out and shot so McCarthyism was well worth it.

I look at how Hillary got away with all her crap (and many in the Obama admin) and can see exactly the kind of evil deep-state forces McCarthy dealt with.
 
In 1947, when anti-communist fear took root in America, Trumbo was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee. He refused to give the names of colleagues with supposedly communist sympathies and was imprisoned for 11 months.

The paranoia whipped up by the Republican Senator Joseph McCarthy throughout the 1950s had a devastating impact on many Americans unfairly accused of leftwing subversion. In Hollywood, more than 300 artists were boycotted by the studios. Some, such as Charlie Chaplin, Orson Welles and Paul Robeson, emigrated or went underground.

No problem with any of that.
 
He made a speech in which he claimed to have a list of 205 communists in the State Department. He lied. There was no list. The paper he held up was blank.

McCarthy claimed to have a list of 130 communists working in defense plants. He never produced that list.

McCarthy was finally censured by a vote of 67 to 22. Tail Gunner Joe died a drunk of hepatitis in his 40's and Cohn died of aids.
And they got the communists that did exist to leave on their own. Tough stuff but it worked to put the fear of the state in the likes of would be Rosenbergs.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
And they got the communists that did exist to leave on their own. Tough stuff but it worked to put the fear of the state in the likes of would be Rosenbergs.
Do you have any evidence to back you up on that? If you were accused of being a communist, would that be ok for your employer to fire you on the spot?

Your logic is bizarre and certainly goes against everything I believe this country stands for. It also goes against things you've posted in the past. You were against the investigation into the Trump campaign, even though the investigation found insufficient evidence to prosecute. McCarthy destroyed people and never found any evidence of espionage or any proof of wrong doing.
 
There were communists and communist sympathizers throughout government. China becoming communist was facilitated by their presence in the State Dept. of the time.

I'm not going to re-litigate the Red Scare but it did what it was intended to do which was stop the red advance in this country and it did so for a number of decades. Nobody was arrested, beaten, tortured, forcibly deported, taken out and shot so McCarthyism was well worth it.

I look at how Hillary got away with all her crap (and many in the Obama admin) and can see exactly the kind of evil deep-state forces McCarthy dealt with.
No one was imprisoned because there was no evidence that anyone actually did anything wrong, broke any laws. Get that through your head.

in this country evidence is required.

McCarthy had none.

It was just wild accusations, lies and innuendos.

Contrary to everything America stands for.

That is why McCarthy is remembered in history as a total POS.
 
@FakeName @middleview

Here ya go.
===================================
That McCarthy, he wasn't such a bad guy after all

It may be thin consolation for history's acknowledged villains, but sooner or later someone will buck the trend and write something half-decent about you. Joseph McCarthy is surely the most reviled politician in US history, and understandably so. No matter that conspiracy theories and witch-hunts are as old as America itself. The Senate hearings he conducted into supposed communists in the US government violated everything the country most admired in itself. Fairness, tolerance and the presumption of innocence are supposed to be the American way. McCarthy abused them all. Yet, as Arthur Herman demonstrates, it was not quite so simple.

In some ways, McCarthy is a truly modern figure. He was addicted to headlines and shamelessly exploited the media to secure them. But in the end, he became the first American politician to be brought down by the newest of the media, television. And the style of congressional committee he pioneered - thuggish, self-aggrandising and nakedly political - lives to this day, as anyone will testify who witnessed the battle to confirm Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court or the absurdly partisan hearings into the Whitewater affair.

In the late Forties and early Fifties, when Russia stole the bomb, China was "lost" and Korea invaded, anti-communism gripped the public imagination. In the hands of a more capable politician it might have carried McCarthy far. But for the recklessly impulsive junior senator from Wisconsin, the cause led to disaster on an epic scale. Herman's description of McCarthy's fall is moving, the story of a man abandoned by erstwhile friends, ravaged by drink, and uncomprehending of how every effort to defend himself only dug the pit deeper.

History has partially vindicated McCarthy. The Venona decrypts of top-secret Soviet cable traffic, and other material available since the end of the Cold War, have proved beyond doubt the guilt of Alger Hiss, the Rosenbergs and others. Communists and their sympathisers had infiltrated many areas of American government, just as McCarthy insisted. He was correct, too, that government vetting and security procedures were far too lax.

But America has always had its establishment - in McCarthy's day, that East Coast coterie of "Wise Men", such as Dean Acheson and Averell Harriman, and the high-minded Washington newspaper columnists with whom they socialised. They knew best how to deal with communists; for McCarthy, the vulgar demagogue, their revulsion was almost physical. "He was working class, they were varsity class," Herman writes. "He was hairy, loud and sweaty; they were cool, clean and antiseptic." Even for his own party, he was too much to stomach. McCarthy's error was to turn his probe against the Pentagon when a Republican general was in the White House. From that point, Dwight Eisenhower was out to destroy him.

With McCarthy's disgrace in the Senate censure vote of December 1954, the Red Scare was to all intents and purposes over. The indirect consequences of McCarthyism, however, were arguably far more costly to America. His antics had discredited Congress in its constitutional role of overseer of the executive - allowing the heirs of the Wise Men in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations to lead America into Vietnam, virtually unquestioned. McCarthy's excesses permitted Eisenhower to withhold evidence from his committee, inventing the doctrine of "executive privilege" that reached its pernicious climax in the Watergate scandal.

McCarthy was a self-promoter, a bully and a liar. He was the bane of liberals and intellectuals. But he never sent a single person to jail, and ruined a few dozen careers at most. Ten days before the Senate's censure in Washington, Andrei Vishinsky, the state prosecutor in Stalin's trumped-up show trials - which prefigured the deaths of millions in the Gulag - died in Moscow. Yet Vishinsky's name is forgotten, while McCarthyism is shorthand the world over for political purge. Is it rehabilitation to suggest that this is just a little unfair?

 
@FakeName @middleview

Here ya go.
===================================
That McCarthy, he wasn't such a bad guy after all

It may be thin consolation for history's acknowledged villains, but sooner or later someone will buck the trend and write something half-decent about you. Joseph McCarthy is surely the most reviled politician in US history, and understandably so. No matter that conspiracy theories and witch-hunts are as old as America itself. The Senate hearings he conducted into supposed communists in the US government violated everything the country most admired in itself. Fairness, tolerance and the presumption of innocence are supposed to be the American way. McCarthy abused them all. Yet, as Arthur Herman demonstrates, it was not quite so simple.

In some ways, McCarthy is a truly modern figure. He was addicted to headlines and shamelessly exploited the media to secure them. But in the end, he became the first American politician to be brought down by the newest of the media, television. And the style of congressional committee he pioneered - thuggish, self-aggrandising and nakedly political - lives to this day, as anyone will testify who witnessed the battle to confirm Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court or the absurdly partisan hearings into the Whitewater affair.

In the late Forties and early Fifties, when Russia stole the bomb, China was "lost" and Korea invaded, anti-communism gripped the public imagination. In the hands of a more capable politician it might have carried McCarthy far. But for the recklessly impulsive junior senator from Wisconsin, the cause led to disaster on an epic scale. Herman's description of McCarthy's fall is moving, the story of a man abandoned by erstwhile friends, ravaged by drink, and uncomprehending of how every effort to defend himself only dug the pit deeper.

History has partially vindicated McCarthy. The Venona decrypts of top-secret Soviet cable traffic, and other material available since the end of the Cold War, have proved beyond doubt the guilt of Alger Hiss, the Rosenbergs and others. Communists and their sympathisers had infiltrated many areas of American government, just as McCarthy insisted. He was correct, too, that government vetting and security procedures were far too lax.

But America has always had its establishment - in McCarthy's day, that East Coast coterie of "Wise Men", such as Dean Acheson and Averell Harriman, and the high-minded Washington newspaper columnists with whom they socialised. They knew best how to deal with communists; for McCarthy, the vulgar demagogue, their revulsion was almost physical. "He was working class, they were varsity class," Herman writes. "He was hairy, loud and sweaty; they were cool, clean and antiseptic." Even for his own party, he was too much to stomach. McCarthy's error was to turn his probe against the Pentagon when a Republican general was in the White House. From that point, Dwight Eisenhower was out to destroy him.

With McCarthy's disgrace in the Senate censure vote of December 1954, the Red Scare was to all intents and purposes over. The indirect consequences of McCarthyism, however, were arguably far more costly to America. His antics had discredited Congress in its constitutional role of overseer of the executive - allowing the heirs of the Wise Men in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations to lead America into Vietnam, virtually unquestioned. McCarthy's excesses permitted Eisenhower to withhold evidence from his committee, inventing the doctrine of "executive privilege" that reached its pernicious climax in the Watergate scandal.

McCarthy was a self-promoter, a bully and a liar. He was the bane of liberals and intellectuals. But he never sent a single person to jail, and ruined a few dozen careers at most. Ten days before the Senate's censure in Washington, Andrei Vishinsky, the state prosecutor in Stalin's trumped-up show trials - which prefigured the deaths of millions in the Gulag - died in Moscow. Yet Vishinsky's name is forgotten, while McCarthyism is shorthand the world over for political purge. Is it rehabilitation to suggest that this is just a little unfair?

You found an opinion piece. Good for you.

Can you tell the difference between opinion and fact.
 
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