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Us finalizing plans to send Abrams tanks to Ukraine

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Are you suggesting we would have backed down if the Soviet Union hadn't withdrawn its plans for nuke missiles in Cuba?
You seem to think the only thing JFK could have done is invaded Cuba. Your comparison between Cuba 1962 and Ukraine is bizarre. When did Nato or the US start shipping nuclear weapons to Ukraine? Are there nuclear weapons in any of the NATO nations on Russias western border? France has nukes. UK has nukes. Where else?
 

EatTheRich

President
ok. fine..let's go with your version of reality, and ignore reality... done now?
I’m insisting that the reality not be ignored.

The reality: in 1917, the working class seized control of Russia, establishing the first workers’ state. As part of that workers’ state’s communist policy of self-determination for oppressed nations, the Russian-occupied part of Ukraine was allowed to become an independent country under a capitalist government. However, as that government cooperated with counterrevolutionary forces aiming to attack Soviet Russia, Russia, backed by urban workers’ uprisings, invaded. Though capitalist Ukraine went through a series of reactionary governments, intrigues with imperialist powers, truces, and offensives, eventually in 1919-1921 the working class aided by the Red Army seized control of Ukraine. However, the international advance of the workers allowing for the victories in Russia and Ukraine eventually faltered and began to be reversed. In particular, this led to an offensive by a “Right Communist” faction that, basing itself on the capitalist aspirations of the peasants and small entrepreneurs, opposed the working-class program of the “Left Communists” and essentially demanded an end to efforts to build socialism, and a bureaucratic “Center” faction of renegades from communism that played off the contending class forces against each other to increase its independent power as an unaccountable privileged caste. These factions were personified respectively by Bukharin, Lenin, and Stalin—but the fight among them was not a fight among individuals jealous of their power so much as a struggle for the victory of one of three irreconcilable political programs.

This political fight between communism and anti-communism played out with respect to every concrete issue facing the new workers’ states. With regard to agrarian policy: the original, communist policy of Lenin called for a worker-peasant alliance based on an absolute rejection of forced collectivization, mutual struggle against exploiting classes, and encouragement of voluntary collectivization through material incentives. As the center-right alliance gained the initiative (following the defeat of socialist Hungary and Bavaria, the Polish defeat of socialist Russia, Mussolini’s victory, etc.), they encouraged the growth of private peasant capital under the Bukharin slogan “through the kulaks to socialism.” To this end they retarded the industrialization of the countryside and repressed the poor peasants in order to serve the special interests of the middle peasants. After with merciless police measures the leftist rank and file was forced out of the ruling party, this social layer fueled an aggressive right that increasingly openly sought capitalist restoration. The belatedly alarmed center, seeking to defeat this political enemy without empowering a working class eager to restore the workers’ democracy upheld in Lenin’s time and drowned in blood to facilitate the victory of the anti-communist center-right, fell back on administrative ultraleft maneuvers such as forced collectivization and democidal “extermination of the kulaks as a class.”

The same dynamic was seen with respect to nationalities policy. The leftist (communist) policy was of self-determination for all oppressed nationalities, where not inconsistent with the defense of the workers’ state. Thus Ukraine and other subject nations such as Finland were freely allowed to secede; minority nations were given privileged access to autonomous political control and encouraged to use their own languages for official business and preserve their own cultural traditions; and nations seeking to unite with Russia on the basis of socialism (as Ukraine, in its vast majority, expressed a wish to do in 1917-1921) were allowed to do so. Lenin’s conception for a multinational alliance of workers’ states was for independent nations to come together on the basis of a common political program including a coordinated foreign policy. The right on the other hand pursued two contradictory programs: exalting the Russians at the expense of the subject nations in order to provide consumer goods to urban Russia without the kind of industrialization that would strengthen the left, and promoting the narrow nationalist aims of relatively wealthy and economically developed minority nations (Ukrainians, Poles, Belarussians, and Lithuanians most of all) at the expense of socialism, and as a smokescreen for supporting the landlords and other reactionary classes of those nations against the workers and poor peasants of those same nations and those they oppressed (for example in Ukraine where many of the landlords were Polish but Ukrainian nationalism also was mobilized by reactionary forces against the Jewish, Ukrainian, and Polish worker-peasant masses). Thus Bukharin’s future allies (Bukharin himself being on the left at the time) Tomsky and Rykov supported the Ukrainian People’s Republic based on its class-collaborationist character in 1917-1919, but then with Bukharin became arch-Russian chauvinists when it was a matter of defeating the Left Oppositionists such as Trotsky and Rakovsky (the outstanding Ukrainian communist leader) trying to carry on Trotsky’s legacy, then made an exception for Polish interests precisely because doing so would advance Russia’s efforts to reduce Ukraine to subjection in the following years, before cynically positioning themselves as the champions of Ukraine in the person of the kulak during Stalin’s ultraleft detour. The center’s approach was equally cynical if more coherent. Stalin counterposed to Lenin’s effort to build an alliance of free socialist nations a centralist federation that would be dominated by Russia, and when his efforts to unite those nations in a single “Soviet Union” over Lenin’s objections that it would be a violation of self-determination proved too powerful to stop, Lenin fought hard to make the Soviet Union a loose confederation of autonomous republics. It was not until the 1936 constitution that Stalin got the kind of regime, tightly controlled from Moscow, that he angled for. But at every point the bureaucracy sought to simplify its administrative tasks as much as possible by making the Soviet Union a Russian nation with undifferentiated oppressed minority groups as much as possible. Thus its efforts to “exterminate the kulaks as a class”—themselves born of the success of the center-right in displacing the agrarian policy of the Leninist left and the obligatory revival of the forced-collectivization measures pursued by capitalist leaders such as Ivan the Terrible—took the form of the genocidal Holodomor against the Ukrainian people.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
The link I provided before was much the same. Russian military corruption has led them to this state where they are incapable of achieving what Putin wants...which is an imperial expansion into other countries. They were supposed to have had tens of thousands of uniforms in storage. They didn't. So now, draftees activated to fight are being told to buy their own uniforms. A demonstration of the body armor they're handing out, looking like medieval breast plates, didn't appear to stop anything above a .22 or pellet gun.
 

EatTheRich

President
Are you suggesting we would have backed down if the Soviet Union hadn't withdrawn its plans for nuke missiles in Cuba?
Of course. The U.S. had already backed down before Khrushchev’s shameful capitulation, in fact. Kennedy called off the invasion when the Pentagon estimated that (if nuclear weapons were NOT used) the U.S. would suffer 18,000 casualties in the first 10 days of fighting.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
I’m insisting that the reality not be ignored.

The reality: in 1917, the working class seized control of Russia, establishing the first workers’ state. As part of that workers’ state’s communist policy of self-determination for oppressed nations, the Russian-occupied part of Ukraine was allowed to become an independent country under a capitalist government. However, as that government cooperated with counterrevolutionary forces aiming to attack Soviet Russia, Russia, backed by urban workers’ uprisings, invaded. Though capitalist Ukraine went through a series of reactionary governments, intrigues with imperialist powers, truces, and offensives, eventually in 1919-1921 the working class aided by the Red Army seized control of Ukraine. However, the international advance of the workers allowing for the victories in Russia and Ukraine eventually faltered and began to be reversed. In particular, this led to an offensive by a “Right Communist” faction that, basing itself on the capitalist aspirations of the peasants and small entrepreneurs, opposed the working-class program of the “Left Communists” and essentially demanded an end to efforts to build socialism, and a bureaucratic “Center” faction of renegades from communism that played off the contending class forces against each other to increase its independent power as an unaccountable privileged caste. These factions were personified respectively by Bukharin, Lenin, and Stalin—but the fight among them was not a fight among individuals jealous of their power so much as a struggle for the victory of one of three irreconcilable political programs.

This political fight between communism and anti-communism played out with respect to every concrete issue facing the new workers’ states. With regard to agrarian policy: the original, communist policy of Lenin called for a worker-peasant alliance based on an absolute rejection of forced collectivization, mutual struggle against exploiting classes, and encouragement of voluntary collectivization through material incentives. As the center-right alliance gained the initiative (following the defeat of socialist Hungary and Bavaria, the Polish defeat of socialist Russia, Mussolini’s victory, etc.), they encouraged the growth of private peasant capital under the Bukharin slogan “through the kulaks to socialism.” To this end they retarded the industrialization of the countryside and repressed the poor peasants in order to serve the special interests of the middle peasants. After with merciless police measures the leftist rank and file was forced out of the ruling party, this social layer fueled an aggressive right that increasingly openly sought capitalist restoration. The belatedly alarmed center, seeking to defeat this political enemy without empowering a working class eager to restore the workers’ democracy upheld in Lenin’s time and drowned in blood to facilitate the victory of the anti-communist center-right, fell back on administrative ultraleft maneuvers such as forced collectivization and democidal “extermination of the kulaks as a class.”

The same dynamic was seen with respect to nationalities policy. The leftist (communist) policy was of self-determination for all oppressed nationalities, where not inconsistent with the defense of the workers’ state. Thus Ukraine and other subject nations such as Finland were freely allowed to secede; minority nations were given privileged access to autonomous political control and encouraged to use their own languages for official business and preserve their own cultural traditions; and nations seeking to unite with Russia on the basis of socialism (as Ukraine, in its vast majority, expressed a wish to do in 1917-1921) were allowed to do so. Lenin’s conception for a multinational alliance of workers’ states was for independent nations to come together on the basis of a common political program including a coordinated foreign policy. The right on the other hand pursued two contradictory programs: exalting the Russians at the expense of the subject nations in order to provide consumer goods to urban Russia without the kind of industrialization that would strengthen the left, and promoting the narrow nationalist aims of relatively wealthy and economically developed minority nations (Ukrainians, Poles, Belarussians, and Lithuanians most of all) at the expense of socialism, and as a smokescreen for supporting the landlords and other reactionary classes of those nations against the workers and poor peasants of those same nations and those they oppressed (for example in Ukraine where many of the landlords were Polish but Ukrainian nationalism also was mobilized by reactionary forces against the Jewish, Ukrainian, and Polish worker-peasant masses). Thus Bukharin’s future allies (Bukharin himself being on the left at the time) Tomsky and Rykov supported the Ukrainian People’s Republic based on its class-collaborationist character in 1917-1919, but then with Bukharin became arch-Russian chauvinists when it was a matter of defeating the Left Oppositionists such as Trotsky and Rakovsky (the outstanding Ukrainian communist leader) trying to carry on Trotsky’s legacy, then made an exception for Polish interests precisely because doing so would advance Russia’s efforts to reduce Ukraine to subjection in the following years, before cynically positioning themselves as the champions of Ukraine in the person of the kulak during Stalin’s ultraleft detour. The center’s approach was equally cynical if more coherent. Stalin counterposed to Lenin’s effort to build an alliance of free socialist nations a centralist federation that would be dominated by Russia, and when his efforts to unite those nations in a single “Soviet Union” over Lenin’s objections that it would be a violation of self-determination proved too powerful to stop, Lenin fought hard to make the Soviet Union a loose confederation of autonomous republics. It was not until the 1936 constitution that Stalin got the kind of regime, tightly controlled from Moscow, that he angled for. But at every point the bureaucracy sought to simplify its administrative tasks as much as possible by making the Soviet Union a Russian nation with undifferentiated oppressed minority groups as much as possible. Thus its efforts to “exterminate the kulaks as a class”—themselves born of the success of the center-right in displacing the agrarian policy of the Leninist left and the obligatory revival of the forced-collectivization measures pursued by capitalist leaders such as Ivan the Terrible—took the form of the genocidal Holodomor against the Ukrainian people.
it was a genocidal campain to quash ukrainian independence aspirations and to force collectiviation thereby accelerating soviet industrialization.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
I’m insisting that the reality not be ignored.

The reality: in 1917, the working class seized control of Russia, establishing the first workers’ state. As part of that workers’ state’s communist policy of self-determination for oppressed nations, the Russian-occupied part of Ukraine was allowed to become an independent country under a capitalist government. However, as that government cooperated with counterrevolutionary forces aiming to attack Soviet Russia, Russia, backed by urban workers’ uprisings, invaded. Though capitalist Ukraine went through a series of reactionary governments, intrigues with imperialist powers, truces, and offensives, eventually in 1919-1921 the working class aided by the Red Army seized control of Ukraine. However, the international advance of the workers allowing for the victories in Russia and Ukraine eventually faltered and began to be reversed. In particular, this led to an offensive by a “Right Communist” faction that, basing itself on the capitalist aspirations of the peasants and small entrepreneurs, opposed the working-class program of the “Left Communists” and essentially demanded an end to efforts to build socialism, and a bureaucratic “Center” faction of renegades from communism that played off the contending class forces against each other to increase its independent power as an unaccountable privileged caste. These factions were personified respectively by Bukharin, Lenin, and Stalin—but the fight among them was not a fight among individuals jealous of their power so much as a struggle for the victory of one of three irreconcilable political programs.

This political fight between communism and anti-communism played out with respect to every concrete issue facing the new workers’ states. With regard to agrarian policy: the original, communist policy of Lenin called for a worker-peasant alliance based on an absolute rejection of forced collectivization, mutual struggle against exploiting classes, and encouragement of voluntary collectivization through material incentives. As the center-right alliance gained the initiative (following the defeat of socialist Hungary and Bavaria, the Polish defeat of socialist Russia, Mussolini’s victory, etc.), they encouraged the growth of private peasant capital under the Bukharin slogan “through the kulaks to socialism.” To this end they retarded the industrialization of the countryside and repressed the poor peasants in order to serve the special interests of the middle peasants. After with merciless police measures the leftist rank and file was forced out of the ruling party, this social layer fueled an aggressive right that increasingly openly sought capitalist restoration. The belatedly alarmed center, seeking to defeat this political enemy without empowering a working class eager to restore the workers’ democracy upheld in Lenin’s time and drowned in blood to facilitate the victory of the anti-communist center-right, fell back on administrative ultraleft maneuvers such as forced collectivization and democidal “extermination of the kulaks as a class.”

The same dynamic was seen with respect to nationalities policy. The leftist (communist) policy was of self-determination for all oppressed nationalities, where not inconsistent with the defense of the workers’ state. Thus Ukraine and other subject nations such as Finland were freely allowed to secede; minority nations were given privileged access to autonomous political control and encouraged to use their own languages for official business and preserve their own cultural traditions; and nations seeking to unite with Russia on the basis of socialism (as Ukraine, in its vast majority, expressed a wish to do in 1917-1921) were allowed to do so. Lenin’s conception for a multinational alliance of workers’ states was for independent nations to come together on the basis of a common political program including a coordinated foreign policy. The right on the other hand pursued two contradictory programs: exalting the Russians at the expense of the subject nations in order to provide consumer goods to urban Russia without the kind of industrialization that would strengthen the left, and promoting the narrow nationalist aims of relatively wealthy and economically developed minority nations (Ukrainians, Poles, Belarussians, and Lithuanians most of all) at the expense of socialism, and as a smokescreen for supporting the landlords and other reactionary classes of those nations against the workers and poor peasants of those same nations and those they oppressed (for example in Ukraine where many of the landlords were Polish but Ukrainian nationalism also was mobilized by reactionary forces against the Jewish, Ukrainian, and Polish worker-peasant masses). Thus Bukharin’s future allies (Bukharin himself being on the left at the time) Tomsky and Rykov supported the Ukrainian People’s Republic based on its class-collaborationist character in 1917-1919, but then with Bukharin became arch-Russian chauvinists when it was a matter of defeating the Left Oppositionists such as Trotsky and Rakovsky (the outstanding Ukrainian communist leader) trying to carry on Trotsky’s legacy, then made an exception for Polish interests precisely because doing so would advance Russia’s efforts to reduce Ukraine to subjection in the following years, before cynically positioning themselves as the champions of Ukraine in the person of the kulak during Stalin’s ultraleft detour. The center’s approach was equally cynical if more coherent. Stalin counterposed to Lenin’s effort to build an alliance of free socialist nations a centralist federation that would be dominated by Russia, and when his efforts to unite those nations in a single “Soviet Union” over Lenin’s objections that it would be a violation of self-determination proved too powerful to stop, Lenin fought hard to make the Soviet Union a loose confederation of autonomous republics. It was not until the 1936 constitution that Stalin got the kind of regime, tightly controlled from Moscow, that he angled for. But at every point the bureaucracy sought to simplify its administrative tasks as much as possible by making the Soviet Union a Russian nation with undifferentiated oppressed minority groups as much as possible. Thus its efforts to “exterminate the kulaks as a class”—themselves born of the success of the center-right in displacing the agrarian policy of the Leninist left and the obligatory revival of the forced-collectivization measures pursued by capitalist leaders such as Ivan the Terrible—took the form of the genocidal Holodomor against the Ukrainian people.
Stop, would ya? The history lesson going back to Stalin or Lenin is simply meaningless in terms of Putin's current effort to expand the Russian empire.

The real point, at this time, is that the Ukrainian people remember the brutality of the communist control of the nation and are willing to fight to the death to remain a sovereign nation.
 

EatTheRich

President
it was a genocidal campain to quash ukrainian independence aspirations and to force collectiviation thereby accelerating soviet industrialization.
… without empowering the working masses that could restore workers’ democracy and a worker-peasant alliance based on voluntary collectivization. In fact the lurch toward forced collectivization was projected by Trotsky as a consequence of the defeat of the communist left under the slogan of “through the kulaks to socialism.”
 

EatTheRich

President
Stop, would ya? The history lesson going back to Stalin or Lenin is simply meaningless in terms of Putin's current effort to expand the Russian empire.

The real point, at this time, is that the Ukrainian people remember the brutality of the communist control of the nation and are willing to fight to the death to remain a sovereign nation.
It isn’t, though. Putin’s regime represents the belated victory of Bukharin’s political line and his foreign policy is at the same time the fruition of the inevitable crisis a nation following such a line faces when the masses recognize that their standard of living had plummeted due to the abandonment of socialism, and the imperialism any nation ruled by concentrated finance capital will inevitably pursue until the alternative of socialism is posed. It is imperative to show that Stalin’s rapacious foreign policy represented the abandonment of, not the fight for, socialism, in order to make it clear that there still remains another option.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Of course. The U.S. had already backed down before Khrushchev’s shameful capitulation, in fact. Kennedy called off the invasion when the Pentagon estimated that (if nuclear weapons were NOT used) the U.S. would suffer 18,000 casualties in the first 10 days of fighting.
"Shameful capitulation"? Nuclear weapons withing minutes of the US mainland would have been a first strike weapon. How you, or the Russians, would have thought that a good idea is simply bizarre.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
… without empowering the working masses that could restore workers’ democracy and a worker-peasant alliance based on voluntary collectivization. In fact the lurch toward forced collectivization was projected by Trotsky as a consequence of the defeat of the communist left under the slogan of “through the kulaks to socialism.”
ok. other than reality. you nailed it.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
It isn’t, though. Putin’s regime represents the belated victory of Bukharin’s political line and his foreign policy is at the same time the fruition of the inevitable crisis a nation following such a line faces when the masses recognize that their standard of living had plummeted due to the abandonment of socialism, and the imperialism any nation ruled by concentrated finance capital will inevitably pursue until the alternative of socialism is posed. It is imperative to show that Stalin’s rapacious foreign policy represented the abandonment of, not the fight for, socialism, in order to make it clear that there still remains another option.
The war in Ukraine isn't about the masses and their standard of living. It is about one man wanting his legacy being the restoration of the Russian empire through force.
 

EatTheRich

President
"Shameful capitulation"? Nuclear weapons withing minutes of the US mainland would have been a first strike weapon. How you, or the Russians, would have thought that a good idea is simply bizarre.
It was never Soviet policy to launch a first-strike nuclear attack. Those weapons were there to deter an attack on Cuba and should have been removed only after consultation with the Cuban leadership.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
I’d say the fact that the consequence of the deviation from communism was projected in advance on the basis of communist theory is strong evidence of the power of that theory.
I'd say the fact that millions upon millions of ukrainiy and others were forcibly starved to death in the name of the Soviet collectivization and industrial effort are all the fact that I need, and dismiss your theory. You know because reality. The Communist juggernaut under Lennon and then Stalin a responsible for those deaths, no benevolence in any way shape or form.
 

EatTheRich

President
The war in Ukraine isn't about the masses and their standard of living. It is about one man wanting his legacy being the restoration of the Russian empire through force.
All politics is about class struggle. Imperial adventurism is in this case a means of generating superprofits to fuel a welfare state that acts as a safety valve for capitalism by alleviating some of the misery of the workers, and a mechanism for the military regimentation needed to force capitalist exploitation down the masses’ throats.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
All politics is about class struggle. Imperial adventurism is in this case a means of generating superprofits to fuel a welfare state that acts as a safety valve for capitalism by alleviating some of the misery of the workers, and a mechanism for the military regimentation needed to force capitalist exploitation down the masses’ throats.
As opposed to what the Communist socialist exploitation forced down the masses throats exacerbating the misery of the workers in order to fuel and expand the industrial apparatus of the soviets?
 

EatTheRich

President
I'd say the fact that millions upon millions of ukrainiy and others were forcibly starved to death in the name of the Soviet collectivization and industrial effort are all the fact that I need, and dismiss your theory. You know because reality. The Communist juggernaut under Lennon and then Stalin a responsible for those deaths, no benevolence in any way shape or form.
Again, it was projected in advance based on Marxist theory that brutal forced collectivization of the sort commonly experienced under capitalist regimes such as that of Ivan the Terrible, but never under Lenin’s communist government, would be the result of the abandonment of Lenin’s political program and its displacement by the Stalin-Bukharin capitalist-road line.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Again, it was projected in advance based on Marxist theory that brutal forced collectivization of the sort commonly experienced under capitalist regimes such as that of Ivan the Terrible, but never under Lenin’s communist government, would be the result of the abandonment of Lenin’s political program and its displacement by the Stalin-Bukharin capitalist-road line.
Again, sounds great in theory as Lenin slaughtered his way to power, followed by Stalin ascending to power on the backs of millions of dead
 

EatTheRich

President
As opposed to what the Communist socialist exploitation forced down the masses throats exacerbating the misery of the workers in order to fuel and expand the industrial apparatus of the soviets?
The industrialization alleviated the misery of the workers and came mostly through exploitation of the peasants. Workers can only really be said to have been exploited due to the forced-march pace of Stakhanovism adopted to compensate for earlier capitulations to the right. The Russian revolution did more to alleviate misery worldwide than any other event since the American Civil War.
 
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