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Us finalizing plans to send Abrams tanks to Ukraine

EatTheRich

President
Again, sounds great in theory as Lenin slaughtered his way to power, followed by Stalin ascending to power on the backs of millions of dead
Lenin and the international working class fought their way to take control of Russia out of the hands of the capitalists and landlords. This was followed by the Stalinist bureaucracy’s brutal fight to take administrative control out of the hands of the working class.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
wow..Stakhanovism ... look at you. the result of the terror at witnessing forced collectivization.

produce or die.

jeebus. read further before cutting and pasting...
 

EatTheRich

President
wow..Stakhanovism ... look at you. the result of the terror at witnessing forced collectivization.

produce or die.

jeebus. read further before cutting and pasting...
Feel free to point to something you claim I cut & pasted. I can assure you I have read more books about the Soviet degeneration than almost anyone who is not a specialist in Soviet history. Again, forced collectivization and the forced-march industrialization were a frantic overcorrection to the laconic approach of “through the kulaks to socialism,” promoting the growth of private property, and avoiding the economic planning necessary for industrialization.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Feel free to point to something you claim I cut & pasted. I can assure you I have read more books about the Soviet degeneration than almost anyone who is not a specialist in Soviet history. Again, forced collectivization and the forced-march industrialization were a frantic overcorrection to the laconic approach of “through the kulaks to socialism,” promoting the growth of private property, and avoiding the economic planning necessary for industrialization.
I withdraw my unfounded claim.

Anyway, I could care less what you read. Whatever you're reading really has you traveling the wrong path. There's nothing here that requires aggrandising in any way.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
It was never Soviet policy to launch a first-strike nuclear attack. Those weapons were there to deter an attack on Cuba and should have been removed only after consultation with the Cuban leadership.
So based on that logic, the US should install nuclear weapons in Ukraine?
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
You seem to think the only thing JFK could have done is invaded Cuba. Your comparison between Cuba 1962 and Ukraine is bizarre. When did Nato or the US start shipping nuclear weapons to Ukraine? Are there nuclear weapons in any of the NATO nations on Russias western border? France has nukes. UK has nukes. Where else?
Nuclear sharing is a concept in NATO's policy of nuclear deterrence, which allows member countries without nuclear weapons of their own to participate in the planning for the use of nuclear weapons by NATO. In particular, it provides for the armed forces of those countries to be involved in delivering nuclear weapons in the event of their use.

As part of nuclear sharing, the participating countries carry out consultations and make common decisions on nuclear weapons policy, maintain technical equipment (notably nuclear-capable airplanes) required for the use of nuclear weapons and store nuclear weapons on their territory. In case of war, the United States has told NATO allies the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) would no longer be in effect.
[1]

 

EatTheRich

President
Nuclear sharing is a concept in NATO's policy of nuclear deterrence, which allows member countries without nuclear weapons of their own to participate in the planning for the use of nuclear weapons by NATO. In particular, it provides for the armed forces of those countries to be involved in delivering nuclear weapons in the event of their use.

As part of nuclear sharing, the participating countries carry out consultations and make common decisions on nuclear weapons policy, maintain technical equipment (notably nuclear-capable airplanes) required for the use of nuclear weapons and store nuclear weapons on their territory. In case of war, the United States has told NATO allies the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) would no longer be in effect.
[1]

Relevance?
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member

EatTheRich

President
What does that have to do with defense against attack?
From a proletarian perspective it makes the defense of Cuba more urgent and therefore the use of drastic measures more understandable. Now Cuba turned out to find a way to defend itself without nuclear weapons (which the USSR was never gonna use to defend Cuba in the first place) and became stronger for it. But if the Soviets had used nuclear weapons as Castro wanted them to when Cuba was attacked in 1962, that may have been a moral failure based on the consequences (indeed, Castro later apologized for it); but it would not have been an infamous crime comparable to the U.S. using nuclear weapons to gain advantage over Japan in the struggle to dominate China. The working class has a stake in the military defense of Ukraine, but it is less. The introduction of nuclear weapons has the potential, in fact, to accelerate the fastening of an incipient secret-police dictatorship on Ukraine.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
From a proletarian perspective it makes the defense of Cuba more urgent and therefore the use of drastic measures more understandable. Now Cuba turned out to find a way to defend itself without nuclear weapons (which the USSR was never gonna use to defend Cuba in the first place) and became stronger for it. But if the Soviets had used nuclear weapons as Castro wanted them to when Cuba was attacked in 1962, that may have been a moral failure based on the consequences (indeed, Castro later apologized for it); but it would not have been an infamous crime comparable to the U.S. using nuclear weapons to gain advantage over Japan in the struggle to dominate China. The working class has a stake in the military defense of Ukraine, but it is less. The introduction of nuclear weapons has the potential, in fact, to accelerate the fastening of an incipient secret-police dictatorship on Ukraine.
In 1961 the Bay of Pigs invasion was by Cubans. It was supported by the US, but did not involve the US military in combat. If the war against Kyiv was just Ukrainians with support from Russia it would be entirely different, but even the fighting from 2014 to 2022 involved Russian troops.

In 1945 the Japanese still had over a million troops in China and the Japanese islands. We did an air strike on Tokyo in 1945 that killed over 100,000 people and burned down half of the city. They still would not surrender.

After the rape of Nanking and the brutal occupation of the Philippines, there was no reason to be merciful as long as they continued the war.
 
In 1961 the Bay of Pigs invasion was by Cubans. It was supported by the US, but did not involve the US military in combat. If the war against Kyiv was just Ukrainians with support from Russia it would be entirely different, but even the fighting from 2014 to 2022 involved Russian troops.

In 1945 the Japanese still had over a million troops in China and the Japanese islands. We did an air strike on Tokyo in 1945 that killed over 100,000 people and burned down half of the city. They still would not surrender.

After the rape of Nanking and the brutal occupation of the Philippines, there was no reason to be merciful as long as they continued the war.
Japan knew surrender was their only option after Stalin honored his pledge made at Yalta in February 1945:
DECEMBER 31, 2002A Pop Quiz on Korea
BY GARY LEUPP

"5. In accordance with a wartime agreement that the USSR would enter the war with Japan following the German surrender, Soviet forces invaded Korea in August, advancing to the 38th parallel by August 10. They could easily have occupied the whole peninsula. What did they do?

"a. They accepted the Japanese surrender, provided arms to local communist forces led by Kim Il-sung, and withdrew within the year.
"b. They consulted with their American allies, who requested that they stop their advance at the 38th parallel, so that U.S. forces could in the next month occupy the rest of Korea. The Soviets agreed to the U.S. proposal.

"c. They proclaimed the Korean Soviet Republic and made plans for permanent incorporation into the USSR."
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Japan knew surrender was their only option after Stalin honored his pledge made at Yalta in February 1945:
DECEMBER 31, 2002A Pop Quiz on Korea
BY GARY LEUPP

"5. In accordance with a wartime agreement that the USSR would enter the war with Japan following the German surrender, Soviet forces invaded Korea in August, advancing to the 38th parallel by August 10. They could easily have occupied the whole peninsula. What did they do?


"b. They consulted with their American allies, who requested that they stop their advance at the 38th parallel, so that U.S. forces could in the next month occupy the rest of Korea. The Soviets agreed to the U.S. proposal.

"c. They proclaimed the Korean Soviet Republic and made plans for permanent incorporation into the USSR."
The US bombed Hiroshima on August 6th and Nagasaki on August 9th.
Russia attacked Japan on August 9th.

You seem to think it was just the Russian attack in China was why they surrendered. The fact is that Russia had no navy to speak of and could not have invaded Japan.

The Russian forces stopped at the 38th parallel because that was the agreement at Yalta in 1943. From 1945 to 1950 the Russians armed and trained the North Korean army to the teeth. The newest tanks, artillery and aircraft. The US gave the South side arms and rifles. North Korea invaded the South with Stalin's permission.

Do you have a point?

PS: Russian forces withdrew in 1948...the same year that US troops did.
 
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The Russian forces stopped at the 38th parallel because that was the agreement at Yalta in 1943.
Do you have a link?

https://www.britannica.com/place/Korea/Division-of-Korea

"The General Order No. 1, drafted on August 11 (1945) by the United States for Japanese surrender terms in Korea, provided for Japanese forces north of latitude 38° N (the 38th parallel) to surrender to the Soviets and those south of that line to the Americans.

"Stalin did not object to the contents of the order, and on September 8 American troops landed in southern Korea, almost a month after the first Soviet entry.

"On the following day the United States received the Japanese surrender in Seoul. There were now two zones—northern and southern—for the Soviets had already begun to seal off the 38th parallel."
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Do you have a link?

https://www.britannica.com/place/Korea/Division-of-Korea

"The General Order No. 1, drafted on August 11 (1945) by the United States for Japanese surrender terms in Korea, provided for Japanese forces north of latitude 38° N (the 38th parallel) to surrender to the Soviets and those south of that line to the Americans.

"Stalin did not object to the contents of the order, and on September 8 American troops landed in southern Korea, almost a month after the first Soviet entry.

"On the following day the United States received the Japanese surrender in Seoul. There were now two zones—northern and southern—for the Soviets had already begun to seal off the 38th parallel."
I am not interested in relitigating the Korean war.
 
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