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Us finalizing plans to send Abrams tanks to Ukraine

EatTheRich

President
Where boldness is required, our leaders consistently provide timidity.
American conduct in this war is reminiscent of British conduct in the Crimean War. There the British showed up with force sufficient to prevent Russia from occupying Istanbul or the Dardanelles Strait, but the British always managed to desert their Ottoman “allies” just in time to see them once again beaten down by the Russians, to the hearty adulation of the conservative press, cheered by the successes of Russia which was then as now the citadel of world reaction. Then it was largely to coerce concessions by Turkey to Austrian ambitions in the Balkans, which gave British imperialism a counterweight to its big rival France and hastened a dreamed-of partition of the Ottoman Empire on more favorable terms a la the later Sykes-Picot. Now the dithering provision of aid intended to prevent a decisive Ukrainian victory comes partly to coerce Ukraine into neoliberal economic reforms and anticommunist repression, but mostly to preserve an ongoing war whereby not just Russia but also the U.S.’s rival Germany is bled dry.

Another war this might be instructively compared to is the Iran-Iraq War. Russia is in the position of Iraq, acting (albeit on a bigger stage) as a regional bully and using its superior military to wage cruel war on the civilian population and crush a nascent democratic revolution. Ukraine is like Iran, a post-revolution regime with the military support of all friends of freedom and a politically heterogenous mix of reformist radicals and reactionaries in the government, whose worst elements are seeking to turn the war of revolutionary defense into a war on the element of democracy; and, just as American aid to Iran (although thankfully the bulk of the aid now isn’t going to Russia as the bulk went to Iraq back then) was channeled to advance the reactionary clerical, military, and accommodationist elements at the expense of the burgeoning democratic forces, today aid to Ukraine is channeled toward encouraging capitulationism, reliance on the reactionary NATO alliance, and the reactionary (neoliberal, national chauvinist, and anticommunist) elements seeking to undermine the democratic uprising to which Russia responded with such fury.

Just as the Ottomans and the Iranians would have been foolish to refuse the offered aid (putting aside the political impermissibility of the specific plan for Iran to buy arms from Israel when the money would go to fund counterrevolutionary terror in Nicaragua), Ukraine cannot now reasonably refuse American aid. But it will put itself in the best position to utilize that aid in the revolutionary manner that will make its fight most effective (as the Ottomans drew their greatest strength from the support of Western Europe’s workers and peasants and Iran from the alliance with oppressed nations such as the Kurds and from the mass, militia-based defense of the 1979 popular revolution) by openly criticizing the meager aid provided, the tailoring of that aid to U.S./NATO military goals for the Ukrainians (keeping the war going while keeping the Black Sea free for oil/gas interests and Turkish military maneuvers), and the reactionary war aims of the imperialist powers, and going over the heads of Biden et al. to appeal to the masses to mobilize through their unions to create workers’ councils coordinating to supply massive, effective aid, if need be by taking action against the imperialist state to impose a policy reform on it.
 
Pretty much the same argument used against JFK when he was in a stand-off with Khrushchev over Soviet missiles in Cuba.

But Kennedy was not intimidated.

I wish we had some of that now, but it seems to have run out.
Kennedy wasn't threatening the borders of Russia unlike today's conflict, and he withdrew US missiles in Turkey when the Soviets withdrew their Cuban weapons. Additionally, Joe Biden is to JFK as Trump is to Dwight Eisenhower.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/cuban-missile-crisis
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
F$&k Russia.


Seems unimpressed with Putin's bluff at this point in the game
So now Canada has committed sending tanks and Canadian military personnel to help train Ukrainians. France is also talking about sending tanks and Poland is sending a version of the T72 that will instantly be ready to fight.

Putin needs to start figuring out a way to declare victory and withdraw.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
So now Canada has committed sending tanks and Canadian military personnel to help train Ukrainians. France is also talking about sending tanks and Poland is sending a version of the T72 that will instantly be ready to fight.

Putin needs to start figuring out a way to declare victory and withdraw.
unfortunately, the opposite is occurring.


I think this aid needs to expedite.
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
I want the Ukrainians to be trained up to the hilt. I just want it overlapped with the tanks being in combat. Train them to do quick repairs, to get the tank back in action. Other repairs, do them in the countries on the border, to make sure it is done right and in an expedited way.

I really hope we don't make the same mistakes as Putin has by rushing equipment in without making sure that it is decisive and devastating. Wouldn't you love to have a MOAB dropped on the Wagner guys?
Good grief. We’re very thirsty aren’t we?
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
F$&k Russia.


Seems unimpressed with Putin's bluff at this point in the game
This is a profound mistake. At a minimum, if we are going to send this sort of cutting edge, very technically-difficult-and-demanding-to-maintain/sustain hardware to foreign theaters, control and operation should be owned/manned BY AMERICAN MILITARY PERSONNEL.

Dumping assets like these into foreign hands is like…well…storing secret documents in one’s garage. If the Abrams are sent, we should have OUR soldiers in their seats.
 

Jack4freedom

Governor
How was that “support”? Come on, Jack. Why are you sounding like a “Bushie”? Is it just because a Democrat happens to be president?
Bush was duping us into attacking and occupying several foreign nations. I was against that. HoweverI am in favor of coming to the aid of Ukraine. The poster I responded to is making excuses for the Russian invaders.
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
Bush was duping us into attacking and occupying several foreign nations. I was against that. HoweverI am in favor of coming to the aid of Ukraine. The poster I responded to is making excuses for the Russian invaders.
The post you responded to demonstrates no “support” for Russia. From what I’ve read elsewhere, I think most folks agree Russia is an evil player on the stage right now. I think we can still disagree on prudent responses and general geopolitical posture in the world.

Support indicates a rooting interest rather than acknowledgment of historic events and policies - not all of which were prudent or correct.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
The post you responded to demonstrates no “support” for Russia. From what I’ve read elsewhere, I think most folks agree Russia is an evil player on the stage right now. I think we can still disagree on prudent responses and general geopolitical posture in the world.

Support indicates a rooting interest rather than acknowledgment of historic events and policies - not all of which were prudent or correct.
sorry. the other poster is a russian propagandist. it absolutely supports the russian endeavor and casts the ukrainian effort in a poor light. deliberately
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
sorry. the other poster is a russian propagandist. it absolutely supports the russian endeavor and casts the ukrainian effort in a poor light. deliberately
Geeze. He’s been here for years. Granted, the apparent fact that he’s a USC Trojan fan is a strike against him… ;-)… but over the years he’s generally proved to be an anti-Bush, anti-Trump, anti-colonialist type of guy who has consistently hammered away at the MIC. People who observe American and/or NATO missteps are not properly relegated to Russia fandom, right? Do you really think he (or Raoul) admire Putin or consider Russia, in its present incarnation, to be a good player on the world stage?
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
Geeze. He’s been here for years. Granted, the apparent fact that he’s a USC Trojan fan is a strike against him… ;-)… but over the years he’s generally proved to be an anti-Bush, anti-Trump, anti-colonialist type of guy who has consistently hammered away at the MIC. People who observe American and/or NATO missteps are not properly relegated to Russia fandom, right? Do you really think he (or Raoul) admire Putin or consider Russia, in its present incarnation, to be a good player on the world stage?
i dont care how they regard Putin or Russia. I only see theyre constantly favoring the wrong side of the equation. Ukraine has the absolute right to pursue its self determined goals. period. this is not without challenge and hiccups, such as purging itse;f of corruption . (a modality of survival generationally embedded and not fixed in a snap)
further..NATO responds to russian aggressian. nothing more.
 

RickWA

Snagglesooth
i dont care how they regard Putin or Russia. I only see theyre constantly favoring the wrong side of the equation. Ukraine has the absolute right to pursue its self determined goals. period. this is not without challenge and hiccups, such as purging itse;f of corruption . (a modality of survival generationally embedded and not fixed in a snap)
further..NATO responds to russian aggressian. nothing more.
Nothing more? Really? You know that’s demonstrably incorrect, right? The fact that one of PJ’s two serially-dishonest sycophants “liked” that particular assertion should give pause as well.

Oh well. Back to “Yer either ‘fer us or agin’!!”.
 
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