What a shock - Biden's CIA director, in 2008 wrote a prophetic memo regarding Ukraine/NATO...

[georgephillip]

The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path, the result is that Ukraine going to get wrecked - YouTube

2015 - just after the US "meddled" in the Ukraine election to install an anti-Putin regime in Kiev. It seems a lot of people could see what Bush and the neocons had put into motion, and the end game is coming into view...nuclear war:

Putin ally warns NATO of nuclear war if Russia is defeated in Ukraine (msn.com)

Is that really what they wanted all along? It certainly appears to be following some sort of plan.

Today's western leaders seem to have a much different understanding of the consequences of nuclear explosions than leaders during the Cold War.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/03/28/ask-ethan-how-can-a-nuclear-bomb-be-hotter-than-the-center-of-our-sun/?sh=670c17b5460b

I get the impression many US elites believe Russia will back down from a direct confrontation with Americans IN UKRAINE.

Your link:

"'The defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war may trigger a nuclear war,' former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who serves as deputy chairman of Putin's powerful security council, said in a post on Telegram.

"'Nuclear powers have never lost major conflicts on which their fate depends,' said Medvedev, who served as president from 2008 to 2012."

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

Ah, the patented Bugsy dodge...

Lying does not help your cause. Far from dodging what you said, I directly addressed it, pointing out that it had nothing to do with what I said. You don’t even try to argue to the contrary.

 

[PhilFish]

You mean the link that takes me to this?

View attachment 73722

Odd.

Wilson Center publication Russia and NATO - Google Search

www.google.com

Here's several

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Odd.

Wilson Center publication Russia and NATO - Google Search

www.google.com

Here's several

Interestingly, this was one of the "related searches" listed at the bottom of your link:

Did Russia try to join NATO in 2000 - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[middleview]

Putin-Linked Mercenary Leader Says Many Ukrainian Soldiers Defected To Russia Since December: 'Were Forced To Fight' (msn.com)

Funny that you find that guy credible....but then you thought Trump was.

 

[middleview]

Yes but you are glossing over the part of the history where early on Putin was not anti-NATO and even considered the possibility of applying for membership. Until GWB and the neocons f*cked all that up and set this:

ukraine destruction - Bing images

Into motion.

Yeah, it is all their fault...not the guy who ordered the invasion.

 

[middleview]

Today's western leaders seem to have a much different understanding of the consequences of nuclear explosions than leaders during the Cold War.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/03/28/ask-ethan-how-can-a-nuclear-bomb-be-hotter-than-the-center-of-our-sun/?sh=670c17b5460b

I get the impression many US elites believe Russia will back down from a direct confrontation with Americans IN UKRAINE.

Your link:

"'The defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war may trigger a nuclear war,' former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who serves as deputy chairman of Putin's powerful security council, said in a post on Telegram.

"'Nuclear powers have never lost major conflicts on which their fate depends,' said Medvedev, who served as president from 2008 to 2012."

And Russia's fate depends on conquering Ukraine? Really? Putin's fate, maybe. Russia, no.

 

[PhilFish]

Interestingly, this was one of the "related searches" listed at the bottom of your link:

Did Russia try to join NATO in 2000 - Google Search

www.google.com

Yup. And?

 

[georgephillip]

And Russia's fate depends on conquering Ukraine? Really? Putin's fate, maybe. Russia, no.

Russia's survival depends on defeating the US which launched a civil war in Ukraine in 2014:

https://by-julietbonnay.com/2019/07/techcamp-used-to-ignite-civil-war-in-ukraine/

"In the year leading up to the Ukrainian coup in 2014, the U.S. used ‘TechCamp’ as a powerful tool to magnify divisions and unrest within Ukrainian society until it exploded into the flames of civil war.

"What began with with Molotov cocktails and burning people alive, now continues with endless bombing of civilians, their homes, and infrastructure in the east.

"The coup and civil war was a U.S. State Department $5 billion investment plan coordinated within the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, with the help of ‘TechCamp,’ a strategy to reach people using social media."

 

[middleview]

Russia's survival depends on defeating the US which launched a civil war in Ukraine in 2014:

https://by-julietbonnay.com/2019/07/techcamp-used-to-ignite-civil-war-in-ukraine/

"In the year leading up to the Ukrainian coup in 2014, the U.S. used ‘TechCamp’ as a powerful tool to magnify divisions and unrest within Ukrainian society until it exploded into the flames of civil war.

"What began with with Molotov cocktails and burning people alive, now continues with endless bombing of civilians, their homes, and infrastructure in the east.

"The coup and civil war was a U.S. State Department $5 billion investment plan coordinated within the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, with the help of ‘TechCamp,’ a strategy to reach people using social media."

Your link does not prove your opinion. Tens of thousands of people protested when Yankovich won a controversial election in 2004. The election was overturned and he lost the re-run of the election. He won in 2010. He rejected an agreement with the EU and chose to go with a loan program with Russia in 2013. The people of Ukraine protested in the tens of thousands all across the country. How did the US get those people to come out against Yanukovich? Clearly they did not want to be closer to Russia. He ran away to Russia Feb 14, 2014. He was prosecuted and found guilty of treason in abesentia in 2019, after having been removed from office by parliament.

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Lying does not help your cause. Far from dodging what you said, I directly addressed it, pointing out that it had nothing to do with what I said. You don’t even try to argue to the contrary.

So you are suggesting all of these wikileaks cables were fabricated, as well as the public statements? That is absurd!

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Your link does not prove your opinion. Tens of thousands of people protested when Yankovich won a controversial election in 2004. The election was overturned and he lost the re-run of the election. He won in 2010. He rejected an agreement with the EU and chose to go with a loan program with Russia in 2013. The people of Ukraine protested in the tens of thousands all across the country. How did the US get those people to come out against Yanukovich? Clearly they did not want to be closer to Russia. He ran away to Russia Feb 14, 2014. He was prosecuted and found guilty of treason in abesentia in 2019, after having been removed from office by parliament.

How many people lived in Ukraine in 2013/14?

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Yeah, it is all their fault...not the guy who ordered the invasion.

Are you suggesting that all of the people who so accurately forecasted the current situation don't exist? Or that they were just extremely fortunate that Putin decided to become an evil manic in the precise fashion that they predicted based on completely baseless reasoning that both they, and Putin, repeatedly articulated?

 

[middleview]

Are you suggesting that all of the people who so accurately forecasted the current situation don't exist? Or that they were just extremely fortunate that Putin decided to become an evil manic in the precise fashion that they predicted based on completely baseless reasoning that both they, and Putin, repeatedly articulated?

Did you forget what Putin said? He claimed Ukraine belonged to Russia. He said he wanted to "de-nazify" Ukraine....not that there was a threat if they joined Nato...because that wasn't imminent.

Your defense of Putin is simply sad.

 

[georgephillip]

Your link does not prove your opinion. Tens of thousands of people protested when Yankovich won a controversial election in 2004. The election was overturned and he lost the re-run of the election. He won in 2010. He rejected an agreement with the EU and chose to go with a loan program with Russia in 2013. The people of Ukraine protested in the tens of thousands all across the country. How did the US get those people to come out against Yanukovich? Clearly they did not want to be closer to Russia. He ran away to Russia Feb 14, 2014. He was prosecuted and found guilty of treason in abesentia in 2019, after having been removed from office by parliament.

Yanukovych rejected an EU/IMF "loan" that would have imposed harsh austerity measures on 99% of Ukrainians in favor of a Russian offer that did not require him to slash subsidies and sell off Ukrainian assets to foreign buyers.

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/OurBiz_Brief_Ukraine.pdf

"The IMF deal that Yanukovych spurned at the end of 2013 was not the first time he had rejected loans tethered to reform programs from international financial institutions (IFIs).

"In 2010, the president vetoed tax reform that was part of austerity measures demanded by the IMF as a conditionality for an aid package.

"In 2011, the IMF put the deal on hold because the government failed to pass a very unpopular pension reform bill, which aimed at cutting public spending through raising the age of retirement for women and increasing the time of workers’ salary contribution to their retirement funds by ten years.8

"The IMF was also displeased that the government watered down gas price increases."

The IMF and World Bank are the roots of global economic inequality.
They were conceived to maintain the disparities that existed at the end of WWII when American with 4% of global population controlled 50% of world-wide wealth.
The US exploits foreign economies through IMF and World Bank debt.
Loans were made in foreign currencies only and promoted dependency on US as food supplier.
The purpose of military conquest is to take control of a foreign economy, take it land, and impose tribute on the defeated country.
The IMF and World Bank accomplish this without the expense of military conquest and occupation.

 

[Raoul_Luke]

Did you forget what Putin said? He claimed Ukraine belonged to Russia. He said he wanted to "de-nazify" Ukraine....not that there was a threat if they joined Nato...because that wasn't imminent.

Your defense of Putin is simply sad.

Link to his quote and we'll see. I think all he said was that they share a common heritage. I also think @georgephillip has done a masterful job of laying out the case that at least the eastern and southern areas of Ukraine were part of Russia way longer than they have been a part of Ukraine, as well as having documented that there were (and still are), in fact, a bunch of Nazis in Ukraine.

Your suggestion that he should have waited until Ukraine actually joined NATO to attack is what is "sad."

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

So you are suggesting all of these wikileaks cables were fabricated, as well as the public statements? That is absurd!

No. I suggested that you are lying about what I said, dodging what I said, and serving as Putin’s useful idiot.

 

[Bugsy McGurk]

Did you forget what Putin said? He claimed Ukraine belonged to Russia. He said he wanted to "de-nazify" Ukraine....not that there was a threat if they joined Nato...because that wasn't imminent.

Your defense of Putin is simply sad.

I told him that above and he “refuted” it by noting that Putin’s war has gone on a long time and been very costly. A classic winger evasive non sequitur.

 

[middleview]

Link to his quote and we'll see. I think all he said was that they share a common heritage. I also think @georgephillip has done a masterful job of laying out the case that at least the eastern and southern areas of Ukraine were part of Russia way longer than they have been a part of Ukraine, as well as having documented that there were (and still are), in fact, a bunch of Nazis in Ukraine.

Your suggestion that he should have waited until Ukraine actually joined NATO to attack is what is "sad."

Your justification for Putin's war is pretty hard to stomach.

 

[middleview]

Yanukovych rejected an EU/IMF "loan" that would have imposed harsh austerity measures on 99% of Ukrainians in favor of a Russian offer that did not require him to slash subsidies and sell off Ukrainian assets to foreign buyers.

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/OurBiz_Brief_Ukraine.pdf

"The IMF deal that Yanukovych spurned at the end of 2013 was not the first time he had rejected loans tethered to reform programs from international financial institutions (IFIs).

"In 2010, the president vetoed tax reform that was part of austerity measures demanded by the IMF as a conditionality for an aid package.

"In 2011, the IMF put the deal on hold because the government failed to pass a very unpopular pension reform bill, which aimed at cutting public spending through raising the age of retirement for women and increasing the time of workers’ salary contribution to their retirement funds by ten years.8

"The IMF was also displeased that the government watered down gas price increases."
View attachment 73726
The IMF and World Bank are the roots of global economic inequality.
They were conceived to maintain the disparities that existed at the end of WWII when American with 4% of global population controlled 50% of world-wide wealth.
The US exploits foreign economies through IMF and World Bank debt.
Loans were made in foreign currencies only and promoted dependency on US as food supplier.
The purpose of military conquest is to take control of a foreign economy, take it land, and impose tribute on the defeated country.
The IMF and World Bank accomplish this without the expense of military conquest and occupation.

100,000 people demonstrated in Kyiv when Yanukovich canceled the EU deal.