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Why defend Taiwan... But not Ukraine.

EatTheRich

President
Strategically China is by far the bigger threat to the world.
China has been building a massive military and bases all over the world and clearly has imperial designs as it grabs more and more natural resources. I fully expect us to be at war with them inside the next decade...12 years max.


Then we have:

The idea the Russians are going to roll into the rest of Europe with an army that can barely win a border skirmish is ridiculous. Our military defending the Ukraine is strategically a gigantic waste of resources. The fight between Russians and Ukrainians is not as old as say the Jews and the rest of the Middle East, but it did not start yesterday either.
All this is right. It is still insane to want an imperialist war between the U.S. and China or to countenance measures that help prepare such a war.
 

EatTheRich

President
As you have no doubt noticed by now, there exists exactly zero lefties who can delineate the nuances that make it necessary for the US to stand by and watch the atrocities against civilians - war crimes - day after day after day in Ukraine, and then turn right around and tell Taiwan, "don't worry, we got your back." They have nothing because there is nothing. You know it, I know it and they know it. They just don't have the common, basic decency to admit it.
It’s not a matter of principle, it’s a matter of imperialist interest. The bulk of the capitalist class ruling the U.S. finds it in its interest to prevent a big Russian strategic victory without committing to war, while preparing for a war with China. The questions of naval and space supremacy, dominance of Asian markets including the Chinese market, national division of addressing the climate crisis, and competition to exploit the semicolonial world divide the powers and are seen as more important to American imperialist success than the scuffles over intelligence supremacy, a fraction of the world’s oil and gas, and dominance of the strategically important lands surrounding Russia. This is the position therefore of virtually all of the Democratic and Republican Parties, including most of those now criticizing Biden. Ruling-class dissidents who are Russia hawks are largely associated with the intelligence community which thrives on the competition, anti-Trump circles including in particular conservative elites in both parties beholden to manufacturers of tanks and similar weapons that would be particularly consumed in war with Russia, auto companies and others squeezed by Russian economic power, and bourgeois nationalist enemies of Russia (Ukrainians, Latvians, etc.) allied with these interests. Doves on China in the ruling class are many of the same, plus defeatists and those who disagree with this or that strategic timetable before defecting to the other side, and particular companies (in electronics and computing, chemicals, machining, construction, etc.) invested heavily in China. But the general consensus is as stated above and was largely the policy of the last 3 administrations.
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
It’s not a matter of principle, it’s a matter of imperialist interest. The bulk of the capitalist class ruling the U.S. finds it in its interest to prevent a big Russian strategic victory without committing to war, while preparing for a war with China. The questions of naval and space supremacy, dominance of Asian markets including the Chinese market, national division of addressing the climate crisis, and competition to exploit the semicolonial world divide the powers and are seen as more important to American imperialist success than the scuffles over intelligence supremacy, a fraction of the world’s oil and gas, and dominance of the strategically important lands surrounding Russia. This is the position therefore of virtually all of the Democratic and Republican Parties, including most of those now criticizing Biden. Ruling-class dissidents who are Russia hawks are largely associated with the intelligence community which thrives on the competition, anti-Trump circles including in particular conservative elites in both parties beholden to manufacturers of tanks and similar weapons that would be particularly consumed in war with Russia, auto companies and others squeezed by Russian economic power, and bourgeois nationalist enemies of Russia (Ukrainians, Latvians, etc.) allied with these interests. Doves on China in the ruling class are many of the same, plus defeatists and those who disagree with this or that strategic timetable before defecting to the other side, and particular companies (in electronics and computing, chemicals, machining, construction, etc.) invested heavily in China. But the general consensus is as stated above and was largely the policy of the last 3 administrations.
I think you are right (you could have put that better) but the bottom line is Ukraine gets treated like a red headed step child while Taiwan has more powerful backers in the tech and defense industries (that rely on its chip manufacturing capacity) so it gets special treatment. If you are saying that all of these decisions are being made with less than zero regard for the people of Ukraine (or Taiwan for that matter) then you are spot on.
 

Raoul_Luke

I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
The destruction is Russia's fault, not Biden's.
Funny, you would blame Biden for not sending troops.
Yet, I don't see Ukraine begging NK for military aid like Russia is doing.
I'm blaming Brandon for treating two extremely similar cases differently because he is senile. The idea that he would send troops to defend Taiwan is a geriatric brain fart.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
It is obvious that the US has made a distinction between the two nations with regard to our policy should they be attacked. One we will defend, the other will receive assistance only....Let there be no further debate over the semantics of it.

The relevant question then (and the one some seek to avoid) is why. It has been suggested computer chip manufacture may be at least part of it, and that is a theory not without merit IMHO. The strategic importance of said chips cannot be overlooked.

Another may be political rhetoric...While the land invasion of one is very real, requiring a very real response, the other remains, at least at this time, theoretical. We have said we would defend Taiwan, even at the threat of nuclear war, but whether or not this is a bluff has not yet been put to the test. This nation has drawn red lines before (Syria and chemical weapons leap to mind) only to watch it having been crossed and responding with little more than outrage and condemnation. So, when push comes to shove, how will the United States actually respond?

Hopefully, we'll never find out.

My two cents.
 
It is obvious that the US has made a distinction between the two nations with regard to our policy should they be attacked. One we will defend, the other will receive assistance only....Let there be no further debate over the semantics of it.

The relevant question then (and the one some seek to avoid) is why. It has been suggested computer chip manufacture may be at least part of it, and that is a theory not without merit IMHO. The strategic importance of said chips cannot be overlooked.

Another may be political rhetoric...While the land invasion of one is very real, requiring a very real response, the other remains, at least at this time, theoretical. We have said we would defend Taiwan, even at the threat of nuclear war, but whether or not this is a bluff has not yet been put to the test. This nation has drawn red lines before (Syria and chemical weapons leap to mind) only to watch it having been crossed and responding with little more than outrage and condemnation. So, when push comes to shove, how will the United States actually respond?

Hopefully, we'll never find out.

My two cents.
I offer in this NOT in defense of Joe Biden or anything the Whispering [Unwelcome language removed] has stated.

However, I think the chip manufacturing, defense contract thing is bullshit. As i said earlier when you look at the globe, it's not Russia building military bases all over the world, its not Russia practically colonizing Africa and South America for natural resources, it's not Russia building man made islands in the South China Sea to increase its terrotorial claims.......

Is China sailing across the strait and going to war worth drawing the red line there? First of all I have ZERO confidence this "President" would actually enforce any red line he put in place. All I know is that when you compare the two sitiuations from a strategic global defense posture, there is no comparison.

China is the problem and war is inevitable.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
I offer in this NOT in defense of Joe Biden or anything the Whispering [Unwelcome language removed] has stated.

However, I think the chip manufacturing, defense contract thing is bullshit. As i said earlier when you look at the globe, it's not Russia building military bases all over the world, its not Russia practically colonizing Africa and South America for natural resources, it's not Russia building man made islands in the South China Sea to increase its terrotorial claims.......

Is China sailing across the strait and going to war worth drawing the red line there? First of all I have ZERO confidence this "President" would actually enforce any red line he put in place. All I know is that when you compare the two sitiuations from a strategic global defense posture, there is no comparison.

China is the problem and war is inevitable.
That likely is all part of the equation as well...That said, Russia's foray into Ukraine is a more immediate threat to Western Europe than an attack on Taiwan would be, if for no other reason than geography.

Yet still no talk of direst intervention there, and plenty of tough talk for the other.
 
That likely is all part of the equation as well...That said, Russia's foray into Ukraine is a more immediate threat to Western Europe than an attack on Taiwan would be, if for no other reason than geography.

Yet still no talk of direst intervention there, and plenty of tough talk for the other.
The only threat to Western Europe from Russia is energy which they allowed themselves to become dependant on. The Idea that the Russian Army can invade Europe is ridiculous, the only card they have (along with 6k nukes) is energy supply. Bombing the crap out of them in the Ukraine not going to change that.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
The only threat to Western Europe from Russia is energy which they allowed themselves to become dependant on. The Idea that the Russian Army can invade Europe is ridiculous, the only card they have (along with 6k nukes) is energy supply. Bombing the crap out of them in the Ukraine not going to change that.
no, but bombing the crap out if them in ukraine will certainly kill the shit out of some russkies...
 
no, but bombing the crap out if them in ukraine will certainly kill the shit out of some russkies...
They don't care sadly, they lost roughly 30 million people in WWII, some historians have that estimate closer to 60, and still managed to roll through half of Europe. Given that history it is safe to assume a body count will not deter them, especially if they feel they are being backed into a corner by the West.
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
They don't care sadly, they lost roughly 30 million people in WWII, some historians have that estimate closer to 60, and still managed to roll through half of Europe. Given that history it is safe to assume a body count will not deter them, especially if they feel they are being backed into a corner by the West.
they propped poles and ukes in front of them...then..
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
True. Stalin in even bombed his own towns etc. so the Germans could not use them for supplies as they retreated.....

Which again brings us back to..... they (as in the people who run the place) don't care about body counts.
Apparently the people whose bodies May wind up being counted do care. Flights out of Russia are spiking. Protests are rising. Consequently so are the beatdowns and jailings in Russia
 
Apparently the people whose bodies May wind up being counted do care. Flights out of Russia are spiking. Protests are rising. Consequently so are the beatdowns and jailings in Russia
I hope for the best but we have seen this movie before from Yeltsin (who despite being a drunk gave people some hope for change) .... to Putin..... if the current Gov't in Russia were to collapse I hope for two things:

1) Someone sane secures the Nukes
2) The new Gov't is actually something different then one guy rule.

Othewise is just wash and repeat.....
 

PhilFish

Administrator
Staff member
I hope for the best but we have seen this movie before from Yeltsin (who despite being a drunk gave people some hope for change) .... to Putin..... if the current Gov't in Russia were to collapse I hope for two things:

1) Someone sane secures the Nukes
2) The new Gov't is actually something different then one guy rule.

Othewise is just wash and repeat.....
Correct
 

Spamature

President
I'm blaming Brandon for treating two extremely similar cases differently because he is senile. The idea that he would send troops to defend Taiwan is a geriatric brain fart.
Do you blame him for Russia's defeats ?
Was Trump's joy at and praise for Putin's invasion of Ukraine a senile brain fart, or did he truly root for them ?
 
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