TBLee
Governor
Nice to know you consider yourself “nobody”
Why hasn't the GOP House investigated the stolen 2020 election ?
- Thread starter Spamature
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Odd to think he listened to you. What was your advice again?Nice to know you consider yourself “nobody”
What you have documented is that you don't know what fascism is. Hillary is not representative of anything but her own opinions. Trump said liberals are vermin. Does he speak for you? Just wondered, because that is the kind of rhetoric Hitler used to describe Jews.
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
I know exactly what it is - and it isn't "uber-conservatism." It is political authoritarianism - not a dictatorship but rather a "popular" (anti-democratic) political movement fueled by one segment of the population demonizing their political opponents as "sub-human" and blaming them for the nation's problems, and then using their state sponsored power to systematically eliminate them. That fits the Bidencrats to a T.
Wow...Who referred to anyone as subhuman? Well, other than Trump calling liberals "vermin" and Hitler using the same rhetoric to define Jews. Hilary called Trump lovers a basket of deplorables. As Trump's four indictments for over 90 felonies progress, his popularity increases. How is it not deplorable for people to like him more after learning of his criminal and corrupt actions?
Trump told aides 'I'm just not going to leave' days after losing the 2020 election, book says
Former Attorney General Bill Barr said in a recent podcast interview that "no one" except informal advisor Steve Bannon knew of Trump's plans to prematurely declare victory in the election and refuse to leave office, admitting that he "underestimated" how far Trump would go in his quest to overturn the 2020 election and stay in office.
"Suggesting there was major fraud as early as he did, in retrospect, looks to me like that was the plan on election night," Barr said.
Trump told aides 'I'm just not going to leave' days after losing the 2020 election, book says (yahoo.com)
Who has been eliminated? Hmmm, nobody. Who was anti-democratic? Was it the mob on January 6 or Trump filing about 60 lawsuits trying to overturn the election and then conspiring with state republican parties to appoint fraudulent electors in violation of the constitution of those states?
EatTheRich
President
Biden is quite conservative, not interested in radically remaking society, and reflexively rolls over for his political opponents, though.
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Because (obviously) we see right through the serial kangaroo court proceedings. We're actually very normal people. If he was really a dangerous or even corrupt maniac, we'd, well, feel the same way you do about him.
Again, there's a sh*t ton of Americans who don't trust the electoral process, Bill Barr's pontificating notwithstanding. There were all sorts of irregularities, albeit ostensibly "legal" under the guise of "covid safety." Then there was the interference by the FBI, the "intelligence" community, the press and social media. Trump had every right to try and play the same (underhanded) .
Now, on to the matter of what, exactly, constitutes "fascism." You seem fixated on the academicians' self serving "it's always and everywhere a 'right wing' movement." That is hogwash. Here is Mirriam Webster on the matter:
fascism
noun
fas·cism ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm
also ˈfa-ˌsi-
Synonyms of fascism
1
often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2
: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
early instances of army fascism and brutality—J. W. Aldridge
They continue:
Did you know?
The Italian Origin of Fascism
The words fascism and fascist have long been associated with the Fascisti of Benito Mussolini and the fasces, the bundle of rods with an ax among them, which the Fascisti used as a symbol of the Italian people united and obedient to the single authority of the state. However, Mussolini did not introduce the word fascista (plural fascisti) with the 1919 organization of the Fasci di combattimento (“combat groups”), nor did the fasces have any direct connection with the origin of fascista. In Italian, the word fascio (plural fasci) means literally “bundle,” and figuratively “group.” From at least 1872 fascio was used in the names of labor and agrarian unions, and in October 1914 a political coalition was formed called the Fascio rivoluzionario d’ azione internazionalista (“revolutionary group for international action”), which advocated Italian participation in World War I on the side of the Allies. Members of this group were first called fascisti in January 1915. Although Mussolini was closely associated with this interventionist movement, it had no direct link with the post-war Fasci di combattimento, and in 1919 the word fascista was already in political circulation. It is, however, to the Fascisti in their 1919 incarnation—who seized power in Italy three years later—that we owe the current customary meanings of our words fascism and fascist.
Fascism Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
Notice they don't mention ANYTHING about "right wing" at all. I think the origins are particularly instructive wrt what its most salient points are (again, not that it is "right wing"). A symbol of the (crowd enforced) authority of the state. Huh!
And, well whattayaknow, it was early on used in the names of, seriously, no sh*t, UNIONS!
Again, not right wing. Just because a bunch of lefty academicians have put a full court press on the term to make sure it became synonymous with "right wing."
Speaking of synonyms (follow their link above):
What's that first one, there, comrade view?
If he was corrupt? If he was dangerous? Wow.
EatTheRich
President
His open corruption already resulted in the preventable deaths of hundreds of thousands, remember?
MOST of his 2016 voters justified their votes by saying that they KNEW Trump would be dangerous to the public and to democracy, but they wanted 1) to shake things up in Washington; 2) to be entertained by Trump's clown show; 3) to keep Hillary who "was even worse" out.
The biggest Covid irregularities were Trump's efforts to weaponize the pandemic to win advantage at the expense of the will of the voters, notoriously with his efforts to shut down mail voting in order to force people to choose between an exposure that could be a death sentence for them or their relatives or abstaining from voting. That and his other election-related gamesmanship such as calling forth people to riot against Covid measures in an attempt to influence political opinion helped spread generation after generation of infection and, if not for the lawful intervention of government officials to protect the right to safely vote, would have been far worse.
To Trump's stated chagrin, and despite his notorious efforts to prevent it, freedom of the press is constitutionally protected (including for social media), which in no way authorizes the president to take revenge because objective coverage makes him look like the worst president in over a century by making war against the peaceful transfer of power to the election winner.
Trump undeniably lost. He was widely expected to lose. He knew he lost as nearly everyone in his inner circle has attested. And he committed blatant, unforgivable crimes in an effort to hold the office he had not won at the polls.
Was there "interference by the FBI"? Maybe. The FBI should be disbanded so it can no longer interfere. The crucial interference by the FBI in the quite-close election of 2016 almost CERTAINLY tipped the election result to Trump. Any interference by the FBI in the not very close 2020 election almost certainly did not affect the outcome ... it wasn't the FBI that caused Trump's Covid record, economic record, blatant self-dealing spree, and general 4-year record of failure and corruption on which most voters based their votes.
"Exalts nation and often race above the individual" is a right-wing position.
The "severe economic and social regimentation" that comes with statism is a right-wing position.
The left supports internationalism, anti-racism, liberation of the individual from alienation through the complete destruction of all authoritarian power structures including the state, diversity, and empowering the masses rather than hierarchical structures.
You omit that Mussolini's Fascists set out to systematically hunt and destroy non-company unions and workers' parties, chose to seat themselves on the extreme right from their first elections to parliament (as did Hitler's Nazis), and (in Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism) self-identified as right-wing and as incompatible with socialism, social liberalism, or democracy.
There's a lot of propaganda here....
Trump broke the law. He was indicted by four different grand juries. Now you've decided these are kangaroo courts. But then discrediting the judicial system is a vital strategy if you want to elect corrupt shits like Trump. Feel free to detail what you think is wrong in those indictments.
1. Fraud case. Did Trump agree to adding 20,000 sq ft to his appartment and 10 floors to a building he owned to bump the value of the appraisal?
2. Documents at Mar-A-Lardo. He was told he had them in February 2021 and refused to return them until January 2022. That shows intent to keep them. He admitted he had them, but claimed he had declassified them before taking them out of the White House...showing intent to take the documents. He had his lawyer lie to NARA about having returned all documents in March 2022.
3. He called Raffensperger and other Georgia elections officials to tell them they must "find" 11,780 votes for him or they could face election fraud charges. Gee...nothing wrong there, eh?
4. He called a mob to DC on January 6, 2021. Why that day? Because based on Eastman's memo, he wanted to delay the count of electors to give him time to talk republican legislatures in the battleground states time to appoint electors who'd vote for him. That defies the constitutions of those states as well as the US constitution.
Why did the mob attack the police and breach the capitol? Because Donald told them to...."Go and fight like hell or you won't have a country". Then, in complete violation of his oath of office, he sat and watched the riot for three hours on Fox news.
Then there is your claim of "irregularities". Be specific. None of Trump's lawsuits worked to overturn the election and even judges appointed by Trump told him his lawsuits were without merit. Did some states extend past election day when they'd accept absentee ballots? Yes, if they were post marked by election day...meaning the post office failed to deliver them in a timely manner. Did some states allow election workers to contact absentee voters to come in to "cure" errors on the envelopes? Yup. So what? The voter had to show ID and verify that it was their ballot. Why do you think that is a problem?
There were no substantial numbers of ballots found to be fraudulent.
Interference by the FBI? Bullshit. Matt Taibbi reviewed the Twitter files and found nothing to indicate the FBI told Twitter to censor the Laptop story. Add to that it was only censored for two days. I Posted two different media stories about the laptop from October, 2020....If you didn't know about the Laptop it was because you weren't following the election stories. It was covered on CBS, NPR, Fox, NYPost...etc...Now, four years later, there is still nothing from the laptop indicating corrupt or criminal acts by Joe Biden.
Calling US citizens Vermin is a way to get the mob to think, as the Nazis did the Jews, of them as subhuman. You discredit Barr because he is telling you the DOJ investigated the claims and found nothing to support the stolen election bullshit. You also discount the fact that Trump hired two firms to investigate the election and they found nothing. What did the Cyber Ninjas find in Arizona? Oh....nothing.
fas·cism
[ˈfaSHˌizəm]
NOUN
- an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Thanks for the (fore)warning - there certainly was a lot of propaganda in that post of yours.
You say "Trump broke the law" but, as you well know, that isn't up to you - it's up to the court system. I don't see any of these cases, if not thrown out prior to a conviction, making it through the appeals process.
Do you know how appraisals work? I just had one done, and the guy measured the house to verify the square footage. The appraisal came in 20% over the (generous) estimate I had given them.
If Trump made a mistake and they didn't bother to check the dimensions, they (obviously) weren't worried about the actual size of the apartment. And, in fact, unless I am mistaken, the loan was repaid (unlike all those "loans" to Jim Biden).
So what? Biden had TS documents at his home (and office) for decades! Pence ended up with some as well. Unless you can prove those documents actually held any intelligence value to our enimies (and that he intended to sell them), it's really a simple process violation that every high level politician finds themselves on the wrong side of (think Hillary's "home brew" server, and instructing her aids to white out the classification markings and send them to her on an unsecured network).
I don't think he said any such thing - he asked them to look at the votes and see if they could "find" 11,000 that hadn't been counted. What is wrong with that?
He called his supporters to DC - it is your "opinion" that they constituted a "mob." Yes, he wanted them to make a big enough fuss that it would buy him time to mount an argument that the democrats engaged in election fraud by changing voting rules on the fly - he had a point. He aso told them to demonstrate "peacefully" - you ignore that in order to gaslight the matter into an "insurrection" that simply wasn't there.
Biden calls all of Trump's supporters a "danger to our democracy." Worse yet, he has his justice department and intelligence agents treat them like that is what they are. If you think there's nothing wrong with that, well, it shows what a hack you are. Barr was certainly looking to move away from the dangerous ground of a potentially stolen election. What he said was, in effect, "nothing to see here, move along." A third of the voting age public thinks that is bullsh*t. The investigations "found nothing" because there is no way to verify if the votes counted were actually cast by sentient people who intended to vote at all, let alone for Joe effing Brandon. Lets see how many votes he gets in 2024...
I see you didn't bother to link to the source of that definition of "fascism." The lefty historians have made a cottage industry out of converting it into a "right wing" ideology, but as my LINK to Mirriam Webster demonstrated, there is nothing inherently "right wing" about it at all. You glaringly ignore its origin in the trade and agrarian union movement in the 19th century. It literally means "strength derived from a (like minded) group." Unless you can demonstrate that unions are "right wing" you have nothing.
If you are ever forced to stop using that lefty generated fig leaf of it being a "right wing" ideology, you are going to be forced to admit that democrats demonstrate far more fascistic behavior tha the right.
So instead of simply saying "well, Biden and Pence did it too"....could you address the facts?
1. Trump admitted to knowing he was taking government documents from the White House. He also tried to prevent their return...having ignored the demands from NARA from February 2021 to January 2022 before returning something less than half of the documents he had. If you read the law, intent to take and keep government documents is what makes it a crime. The inadvertent removal when mixed in with a ton of other material does not make it a crime and the immediate return makes the accusation of intent to keep somewhat moot.
2. How can you excuse the fact that the apartment went from 10,000 sq ft to 30,000 sq ft or the building that had a mysterious 10 floors added? That isn't a matter of a simple difference of opinion. My boss at one company actually paid an appraiser to bump up the value of his home and found a company to pay him cash at a 125% mortgage. He got caught.
3. He told the mob to "fight like hell or you won't have a country" and minutes later the mob attacked the police and broke into the Capitol. So what did the mob hear him say...march peacefully or fight like hell? After Trump tweeted out that Pence had not refused to certify electors the mob began to chant "hang Mike Pence".
Did you know there was a time limit to count the electors and declare a winner? Did you read Eastman's memo? If Trump had managed to get his slate of fraudulent electors into the process he'd have remained president in spite of losing the election by 7 million votes. The would have been a coup. As it is a lot of his fraudulent electors are also now being prosecuted.
Add to that the fact that Trump watched the riot for 3 hours and refused to send help.
4. Yes, about 30% of the voters agree with Trump....70% do not. Those voters who agree with you are ignoring the lack of evidence. They are ignoring the fact that for two months Trump filed lawsuits to overturn the election and every judge hearing his cases ruled he had not proven his case.
Which party attempted to remain in power by using a mob? Seems like a pretty fascistic plan....is anti-democracy a left or right wing strategy? Now Trump is preparing to replace about 50,000 federal employees with his own followers. Mussolini would be proud.
The quote on fascism was on Oxford dictionary.
That is quite an admission...you aren't here to contribute to the conversation. You're here to troll other posters.
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Yeah, I never said there were no "definitions" that categorized fascism as "right wing." Only that in fact there a number that do not. So obviously there are two schools of thought - those who think it can only be "right wing" and those who understand that "right wing" is not an inherent trait of "fascism."
In fact, as I pointed out, its origin stems from the (unionist) syndicalism movement of the 19th century.
Fascist syndicalism - Wikipedia
And, of course, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, the pre-WWII "fascists" were all prior members of various socialist movements.
Can a right winger be a "fascist?" Sure - every bit as well as a left winger can be. Like I said - if we take your "definition" and remove the reference to it being "right wing" and look at the remaining traits, with very minor adjustments, it fits the current democrats to a "T."
Fascism is a political ideology and mass movement that dominated many parts of central, southern, and eastern Europe between 1919 and 1945. Although fascist parties and movements differed significantly from one another, they had many characteristics in common, including:
- Extreme militaristic nationalism
- Contempt for electoral democracy and political and cultural liberalism
- A belief in natural social hierarchy and the rule of elites
- The desire to create a Volksgemeinschaft (German: “people’s community”), in which individual interests would be subordinated to the good of the nation 12.
Fascist regimes were characterized by extreme militant nationalism, hatred of communism and socialism, contempt for democracy, and belief in natural social hierarchy and the rule of elites
In addition it was characteristic of fascist regimes to outlaw independent labor unions and an attempt to claim religion as their own. Many on the right claim Trump was sent by God...
Republicans in Michigan and Ohio are trying to overturn the election that mandated reproduction rights. One republican said "just ignore the vote". Trump supporters tried to overturn the 2020 election by mob violence.
See post #93 for a full list of republican traits and tactics.
Meanwhile, where is your post that you say proved the democratic party has traits related to fascism. It sure as hell is not in this thread.
I did a search for your NIC and the word cisgenderism ....and the post in this thread was the only place you've used that term. So where is your proof that the left is based in fascism?
EatTheRich
President
There are definitions that explicitly categorize fascism as right-wing, and definitions that do so only implicitly. But ALL point out the right-wing traits (statist contempt for democracy, nationalism, racism (usually), social conservatism) shared by all fascist movements.
Raoul_Luke
I feel a bit lightheaded. Maybe you should drive.
Who are the ones out rallying against the Jews and Israel right now, the right or the left?
So you think that is evidence of fascism? You claimed to be anti-war...over 11,000 dead in Gaza...
I think there should be a ceasefire...doesn't mean I hate the Jews.
So where is your proof that the dems are fascists?
The Fascist Syndicalists differed from other forms of fascism in that they generally favored class struggle, worker-controlled factories and hostility to industrialists, which lead historians to portray them as "leftist fascist idealists" who "differed radically from right fascists."[3] Generally considered one of the more radical Fascist syndicalists in Italy, Rossoni was the "leading exponent of fascist syndicalism".,[4] and sought to infuse nationalism with "class struggle"
I don't see anything about the wikipedia article that actually addresses the widely recognized features of fascism. Is a union capable of military action? Nope. Do the unions of the day oppose a free press or democratic elections? No. A fascist government is anti-labor union. It is pro-business. The definition in Wiki is anti-business...closer to communism, in my opinion.
