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You know what went away after two years?

Iceland tells me that one of the most isolated and insular communities on the planet, with very low population density, has a lot of options the rest of the world doesn't.

Sweden tells me that even if a country is in Scandinavia, where most nations did extremely well in weathering the virus, dumb policy can still make for disaster.

As for Israel, it tells me nothing, since they have a tendency to ignore the parts of the territory they control that are subject to criminal occupation, so it's really hard to know what's going on there.

Anyway, the most telling of those three is Sweden. When they avoided lockdowns, experts warned they'd suffer for it, and they arrogantly insisted they wouldn't. Now we know the experts were right. They've lost 1,441 people per million to the pandemic. Norway, Finland, and Demark lost 151, 187, and 449 per million, respectively.

Imagine if Sweden had merely managed to do as well as the median of their three close neighbors. There'd be about 13,000 more Swedes alive today. Think of it this way: if their leader had quit the government, joined Al Qaeda, masterminded the hijacking of airliners, which he had his jihadists then fly into buildings, with four times the death toll Osama Bin Laden managed, that STILL would have caused fewer deaths than his decision to forego lockdown. His leadership was an unimaginably massive tragedy for the nation.

The only saving grace for the Swedes is that although they were imbeciles about lockdowns, they haven't been about vaccines/ They've gotten vaccinated at about the same rate as their neighbors. So, they're doing OK this year, with the catastrophe having mostly been last year.
The Green Godzilla

Taking Greta Thunberg as a clue, isn't Sweden far more paranoiac about auto "pollution" than we are? In that sense, they've been locked down for decades. So I still say that our Lockdown caused all these deaths. In fact, the previous reductions in auto emissions here made the Lockdown even more lethal.
 
No such claim was made.

However, as in anything, some things are similar and some are different. I believe it would be foolish to dismiss the notion of learning from past pandemics out of hand, and I am confident that the folks at the CDC are not inclined to do that.
There is a reason history majors can only find jobs as baristas. Learning history doesn't actually solve problems. It is just irrelevant trivia.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
Stomped Out by a Carbon Footprint

Well, that didn't happen with the bubonic plague. It came back again and again, as lethal as before. So would have the Spanish Influenza.

Contemporary scientists are programmed to believe that no level of "pollution" can actually be beneficial. Your expert takes the easiest explanation for the disappearance of the killer influenza because she doesn't know any better.

If you read the entire article (link provided in post #170), you'd read the the Spanish Influenza never really went away:

What Welch didn’t predict was that the virus never truly went away. In 2009, David Morens and Jeffery Taubenberger — two influenza experts at the National Institutes of Health — co-authored an article with Anthony S. Fauci explaining how the descendants of the 1918 influenza virus have contributed to a “pandemic era” that has lasted the past hundred years. At the time the article was published, the H1N1 influenza virus in public circulation was a fourth-generation descendant of the novel virus from 1918.


“All those pandemics that have happened since — 1957, 1968, 2009 — all those pandemics are derivatives of the 1918 flu,” Taubenberger told The Post. “The flu viruses that people get this year, or last year, are all still directly related to the 1918 ancestor.”
 

Mina Park

Council Member
The Green Godzilla

Taking Greta Thunberg as a clue, isn't Sweden far more paranoiac about auto "pollution" than we are? In that sense, they've been locked down for decades. So I still say that our Lockdown caused all these deaths. In fact, the previous reductions in auto emissions here made the Lockdown even more lethal.
I've seen some arguments (which may have been trolling, rather than things people really believe) that claimed lockdowns were responsible for the High levels of excess mortality, as opposed to COVID. However, here in the US, we have an easy enough check on that theory, simply by way of listing percentage excess mortality by state and seeing if, in fact, it was worse where lockdowns were firmer.

It turns out it wasn't. The two states with the worst excess mortality were Texas and Arizona, where there was a great deal of political opposition to lockdowns. And, these days, excess mortality is running highest in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Missouri, and Texas, all of which are foot-draggers when it comes to any counter-measures of a lockdown variety. If lockdowns were driving excess mortality, those states would be doing great, while more liberal and cautious places like Connecticut, New York, and Massachusetts would be suffering serious problems (when in fact they have negative excess mortality right now).
 
Are you suggesting there was no evidence of polio before DDT was invented?



DDT (dichloro-diphenyl-trichloroethane) was developed as the first of the modern synthetic insecticides in the 1940s.

You would have made a good doctor too. Just like @EatTheRich .
 
If you read the entire article (link provided in post #170), you'd read the the Spanish Influenza never really went away:

What Welch didn’t predict was that the virus never truly went away. In 2009, David Morens and Jeffery Taubenberger — two influenza experts at the National Institutes of Health — co-authored an article with Anthony S. Fauci explaining how the descendants of the 1918 influenza virus have contributed to a “pandemic era” that has lasted the past hundred years. At the time the article was published, the H1N1 influenza virus in public circulation was a fourth-generation descendant of the novel virus from 1918.


“All those pandemics that have happened since — 1957, 1968, 2009 — all those pandemics are derivatives of the 1918 flu,” Taubenberger told The Post. “The flu viruses that people get this year, or last year, are all still directly related to the 1918 ancestor.”
It went away in the sense of being a pandemic of concern. I have a post somewhere speaking to waiting for catching Covid when it is at its most transmissible and least deadly virulence wise.

It was interesting to see your info how the 1918 survives to this day in a mutated form. It confirms what I've supposed to others on the matter.
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
It went away in the sense of being a pandemic of concern. I have a post somewhere speaking to waiting for catching Covid when it is at its most transmissible and least deadly virulence wise.

It was interesting to see your info how the 1918 survives to this day in a mutated form. It confirms what I've supposed to others on the matter.
The pandemic "went away", but the virus did not. It mutated, and for the better.

This makes perfect sense to me...Every living organism has a survival instinct. If a virus is so deadly it kills every host, it would eradicate itself....It must mutate in order to survive.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
The pandemic "went away", but the virus did not. It mutated, and for the better.

This makes perfect sense to me...Every living organism has a survival instinct. If a virus is so deadly it kills every host, it would eradicate itself....It must mutate in order to survive.
some interesting reading.
 

Mina Park

Council Member
What facts, Mina? So far, you have presented none.

Well, in that particular post, the following facts:

  1. In the very early history of vaccines, they posed a fairly serious danger
  2. That danger was typically significantly lower than the danger they were averting.
  3. The Salk polio vaccine had some batches with improperly inactivated viruses
  4. That resulted in a number of recipients getting the virus as a result of the vaccine.
  5. Statistically people were far better off with the polio vaccine than without it
  6. The polio virus used to be a common childhood ailment
  7. The polio virus is now virtually unknown in the developed world
  8. The polio vaccines were decisive in making that change
  9. The mRNA vaccines don't have any virus in them,
  10. The mRNA vaccines can't infect anyone with COVID.
  11. The mRNA vaccines effectively give your body a recipe for manufacturing some proteins
  12. Those proteins are markers for the virus
  13. That teaches your body to kill the virus
  14. Modern vaccine manufacturing is more precise than Salk-era processes
  15. Modern vaccine manufacturing includes terrific safety protocols
  16. There have been literally billions of doses of the COVID vaccines made
  17. There have been only a handful of bad batches
  18. You're more likely to die driving to get vaccinated than die of the vaccine.
  19. The vaccines have been remarkably effective at lowering your risk of getting a serious case of COVID
  20. The vaccines also lower your risk of transmitting the virus to others
Of those 20 facts I presented, which are you disputing, specifically?
 

Zam-Zam

Senator
some interesting reading.

An enjoyable and fascinating read - I particularly enjoyed the section on "Learning from the Past"....This paragraph was eerily prophetic:

If a severe pandemic, such as occurred in 1918 happened today, it would still likely overwhelm health care infrastructure, both in the United States and across the world. Hospitals and doctors’ offices would struggle to meet demand from the number of patients requiring care. Such an event would require significant increases in the manufacture, distribution and supply of medications, products and life-saving medical equipment, such as mechanical ventilators. Businesses and schools would struggle to function, and even basic services like trash pickup and waste removal could be impacted.


Also perhaps of interest to some was this scholarly work which was referenced by your article:

Initial Genetic Characterization of the 1918 “Spanish” Influenza Virus

Initial Genetic Characterization of the 1918 “Spanish” Influenza Virus (science.org)

 
I've seen some arguments (which may have been trolling, rather than things people really believe) that claimed lockdowns were responsible for the High levels of excess mortality, as opposed to COVID. However, here in the US, we have an easy enough check on that theory, simply by way of listing percentage excess mortality by state and seeing if, in fact, it was worse where lockdowns were firmer.

It turns out it wasn't. The two states with the worst excess mortality were Texas and Arizona, where there was a great deal of political opposition to lockdowns. And, these days, excess mortality is running highest in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Missouri, and Texas, all of which are foot-draggers when it comes to any counter-measures of a lockdown variety. If lockdowns were driving excess mortality, those states would be doing great, while more liberal and cautious places like Connecticut, New York, and Massachusetts would be suffering serious problems (when in fact they have negative excess mortality right now).
Well, in that particular post, the following facts:

  1. In the very early history of vaccines, they posed a fairly serious danger
  2. That danger was typically significantly lower than the danger they were averting.
  3. The Salk polio vaccine had some batches with improperly inactivated viruses
  4. That resulted in a number of recipients getting the virus as a result of the vaccine.
  5. Statistically people were far better off with the polio vaccine than without it
  6. The polio virus used to be a common childhood ailment
  7. The polio virus is now virtually unknown in the developed world
  8. The polio vaccines were decisive in making that change
  9. The mRNA vaccines don't have any virus in them,
  10. The mRNA vaccines can't infect anyone with COVID.
  11. The mRNA vaccines effectively give your body a recipe for manufacturing some proteins
  12. Those proteins are markers for the virus
  13. That teaches your body to kill the virus
  14. Modern vaccine manufacturing is more precise than Salk-era processes
  15. Modern vaccine manufacturing includes terrific safety protocols
  16. There have been literally billions of doses of the COVID vaccines made
  17. There have been only a handful of bad batches
  18. You're more likely to die driving to get vaccinated than die of the vaccine.
  19. The vaccines have been remarkably effective at lowering your risk of getting a serious case of COVID
  20. The vaccines also lower your risk of transmitting the virus to others
Of those 20 facts I presented, which are you disputing, specifically?
I know what you said ---- and I'll answer you properly tomorrow.
 
Well, in that particular post, the following facts:

  1. In the very early history of vaccines, they posed a fairly serious danger
  2. That danger was typically significantly lower than the danger they were averting.
  3. The Salk polio vaccine had some batches with improperly inactivated viruses
  4. That resulted in a number of recipients getting the virus as a result of the vaccine.
  5. Statistically people were far better off with the polio vaccine than without it
  6. The polio virus used to be a common childhood ailment
  7. The polio virus is now virtually unknown in the developed world
  8. The polio vaccines were decisive in making that change
  9. The mRNA vaccines don't have any virus in them,
  10. The mRNA vaccines can't infect anyone with COVID.
  11. The mRNA vaccines effectively give your body a recipe for manufacturing some proteins
  12. Those proteins are markers for the virus
  13. That teaches your body to kill the virus
  14. Modern vaccine manufacturing is more precise than Salk-era processes
  15. Modern vaccine manufacturing includes terrific safety protocols
  16. There have been literally billions of doses of the COVID vaccines made
  17. There have been only a handful of bad batches
  18. You're more likely to die driving to get vaccinated than die of the vaccine.
  19. The vaccines have been remarkably effective at lowering your risk of getting a serious case of COVID
  20. The vaccines also lower your risk of transmitting the virus to others
Of those 20 facts I presented, which are you disputing, specifically?
All of those opinions do I despute.

Are we not discussing the so called Spanish Flu, in this thread?
IF you went back to the 'opinion's' of the day you would find that many many many authorities, military, medical and other said that without doubt said 'flu' was vaccine caused. Mass vaccination of the military and civillian populations were being carried out - particulary against typhiod. Vaccines cause epedemics, worsen sickness, they do not protect anyone against anything.
 

Mina Park

Council Member
All of those opinions do I despute.
But we're not really talking about opinions here. We're talking about assertions of fact. An opinion would be something like "Trump's hair is ridiculous." One can agree or disagree, since that's ultimately a matter of taste, and there's no way to establish whether, as a matter of fact, it's ridiculous. By comparison, if I said "70% of poll respondents called Trump's hair ridiculous," that's an assertion of fact. Either there was a poll backing that up, or there wasn't.

Similarly, the Salk polio vaccine did, as a simple matter of verifiable fact, have some bad batches with improperly inactivated viruses (one of my assertions of fact).


So, it strikes me as a cop-out to simply say "I dispute (or 'despute,' for the spelling-impaired) that opinion," when it's not actually an opinion. It's an assertion that something happened, which either did or did not happen.

IF you went back to the 'opinion's' of the day you would find that many many many authorities, military, medical and other said that without doubt said 'flu' was vaccine caused.
Which specific authorities say that the 1918 pandemic was caused by vaccination? Please provide particular names.

Anyway, the reality is that premature mortality due to transmissible disease has gone down DRASTICALLY in the era of vaccinations, and in some cases we've completely eliminated some viruses that were once major killers of humans. Smallpox, for example, had been preying on humans since the earliest historical eras, at least. In 18th century Europe, it was killing almost half a million people per year, year after year, generation after generation. Then inoculation came along, with increasingly advanced vaccines, and it was completely eliminated. It's been almost half a century since the last person died of small pox.
 
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