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You know what went away after two years?

I'd love to challenge such a person, to see if she REALLY believes what she says she does. Like we could each put up $10,000, and agree to three injections. I would be injected with vials of the flu vaccine, the COVID vaccine, and a tetanus shot -- each a dangerous poison, according to her. She would be injected with vials of live malaria parasites, Ebola virus, and anthrax bacteria (none of which, according to her, can create illness in a healthy person). In two weeks, we compete in a mile run and whoever wins gets the $20,000.

I'm not much of a runner, but something tells me she wouldn't have a good mile time zipped up in a body bag.
How utterly disgusting.

That is a truly terrifying fantasy - is that how you put yourself to sleep at night, Vaccinator?
 
Some diseases are caused by viruses. Some by bacteria. Some by parasites. Some by poisons. Some by nutritional deficiencies. Some by genetic problems. Some by lifestyles. And so on. No sane person denies that. But the lunatic Queen Titania was pushing does. She rejected the idea that any diseases were caused by bacteria, viruses, or parasites, which she saw as merely symptoms of the underlying ailments.
I leave the room for a few hours and come back to find you lying about me!!!!

Mmm if you feel that you have to make thing up against me --- I must have hit a nerve.
 

God of War

Lets go Brandon!
facturing is more precise than Salk-era processes

Of those 20 facts I presented, which are you disputing, specifically?
At least 5 maybe 6.

2. A subjective point.

5. You give credit solely to the vaccine when stuff like cleanliness and better health need be included. If you are vaccinated for polio but I give you a large enough dose of inoculum you can get polio.

6. Define common.

9. 10. 11. mRNA has no track record of being safe because no product using the tech has ever been delivered before. The mRNA induces the body to create a single epitope response to the S protein spike and not multiple epitopes to create a stronger immune response. A pure inoculum of S protein spike injected into lab animals created horrific vascular disease. The S protein is the infection. People being injected and having the worse adverse effects to the vaccine probably have asymptomatic Covid or the vaccination did not apply aspiration correctly to make sure the vaccine was being administered in an intramuscular fashion. The encapsulating lipids of the vaccine are being found in tissues all over the body to include higher presence in the ovaries. Lipids are not mRNA but... The efficacy of the mRNA vax is going down rapidly with time. Either the bug is evolving away or the immune response isn't as persistent as could be hoped for. Natural immunity to Coronavirus from the early 2000's is still found in those sickened at the time. Meaning...? I could go on with it takes 7-12 years to approve a vaccine in which time the long term effects as seen over years can be discovered. EUA to approved in under a year is a regulatory capture joke.

18. 36,000 people die on the road. The hypochondriacs say 45,000 have died from the shot. If true its getting closer to even chances.

20. The vaccinated are getting sick. Means they can harbor the disease and here is when it can mutate to become deadlier.

That'll do I guess.
 
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God of War

Lets go Brandon!
I'd wondered whether the decline in excess mortality in MA might just be because COVID killed a bunch of people early when it tore through in April 2020, and then they weren't around to die after that, pushing down the numbers. However, the math doesn't work out to support that case.

If you look at the percentage of excess mortality by state, through the end of July 2021, the worst states, as you might expect, are Arizona and Texas, where far-right governments took an objectively pro-virus stance, with catastrophic impact for their people. Specifically, their observed mortality in 2020 and in 2021 through July was about 22%. Massachusetts, meanwhile, is under 10%... 14th lowest in the country, and falling.

Basically, excess mortality spiked sky-High in the first few months of the pandemic in Massachusetts (peaking at 24% the week of 5/23/20), then fell for so long that it came down to less than half what it is in the worst-managed states. So, it's more than just those first few months clearing out the deadwood.

Anyway, generally speaking the hardest-hit states were higher density states -- like New Jersey, which is our densest state. Densely settled communities are a really inviting context for transmission. And low-density states generally did better (ME, AK, NH, NE). But that's what makes MA particularly impressive. It's very High density, but has done a good job keeping a lid on the pandemic. In effect, it was playing the pandemic game with the difficulty level cranked near maximum, yet still scored well.
I'll have to take your word for it. In Florida the excess deaths those first few months were much less than 24%. All I got from it was that Covid was real and about 5 times worse than the worse flu season. And I haven't looked at them since because the public health protocols have so affected human behavior such as amount of driving, keeping doctors visits, diets, changed exercise prerogatives, and what have you that excess deaths wouldn't tell you much about Covid itself. This is when you have to go back to the Covid specific numbers being reported and that's if you trust them implicitly. I don't.

Also, it became evident that when that 600,000 covid deaths was reported the likelier number was more like 400,000.

That's all.
 

Mina Park

Council Member
Researched information susses out anecdotal information and vice versa.

P.s. Anecdotal information is another word for observation. :0)
The issue is that anecdotal observations tend to be worthless when we're talking about narrow observations that get used to divine broader realities. Like "my brother drank a bunch of vodka when he had COVID and he recovered quickly, therefore alcohol is a good medicine for it." We get a lot of that kind of thinking in online discussions.
 

Mina Park

Council Member
That is a truly terrifying fantasy
Yes it is. Yet the question is which part of it is terrifying. If you're a sane person, it's the idea of injecting Malaria, Ebola, and anthrax. If, on the other hand, you're a lunatic like Ellie McBean, those are all seen as harmless for a healthy person, and the scary part is the idea of injecting three vaccines that have been proven remarkably safe in clinical trials.
 

Mina Park

Council Member
I leave the room for a few hours and come back to find you lying about me!!!!

Mmm if you feel that you have to make thing up against me --- I must have hit a nerve.
As you know, I haven't lied about you even a little. You were the one who pushed Eleanor McBean. I merely pointed out what that freakshow quack believes.
 

Mina Park

Council Member
At least 5 maybe 6.

2. A subjective point.

5. You give credit solely to the vaccine when stuff like cleanliness and better health need be included. If you are vaccinated for polio but I give you a large enough dose of inoculum you can get polio.

6. Define common.

9. 10. 11. mRNA has no track record of being safe because no product using the tech has ever been delivered before. The mRNA induces the body to create a single epitope response to the S protein spike and not multiple epitopes to create a stronger immune response. A pure inoculum of S protein spike injected into lab animals created horrific vascular disease. The S protein is the infection. People being injected and having the worse adverse effects to the vaccine probably have asymptomatic Covid or the vaccination did not apply aspiration correctly to make sure the vaccine was being administered in an intramuscular fashion. The encapsulating lipids of the vaccine are being found in tissues all over the body to include higher presence in the ovaries. Lipids are not mRNA but... The efficacy of the mRNA vax is going down rapidly with time. Either the bug is evolving away or the immune response isn't as persistent as could be hoped for. Natural immunity to Coronavirus from the early 2000's is still found in those sickened at the time. Meaning...? I could go on with it takes 7-12 years to approve a vaccine in which time the long term effects as seen over years can be discovered. EUA to approved in under a year is a regulatory capture joke.

18. 36,000 people die on the road. The hypochondriacs say 45,000 have died from the shot. If true its getting closer to even chances.

20. The vaccinated are getting sick. Means they can harbor the disease and here is when it can mutate to become deadlier.

That'll do I guess.
2. That danger was typically significantly lower than the danger they were averting.

A subjective point? No. An objective one. Studies showed it decreased mortality.

5. Statistically people were far better off with the polio vaccine than without it

Do I give credit solely to the vaccine when stuff like cleanliness and better health need be included? No. As you can see, I never said a word about it being solely responsible. That's a straw man.

6. The polio virus used to be a common childhood ailment.

How do I define common? It was hitting thousands of people per year. In fact, in 1952, it hit 57,879 people in the US alone, 3,145 of whom died. But, within a few years of polio vaccination starting, deaths from polio in the US were down to the double digits and never returned to their former High levels. These days we go many years at a time without a polio death in the US, and it's not because we're that much cleanlier or healthier overall than in the mid-20th century. It's because a campaign of vaccination created herd immunity, making it impossible for the virus to circulate in the US the way it used to.

9The mRNA vaccines don't have any virus in them,
10The mRNA vaccines can't infect anyone with COVID.
11The mRNA vaccines effectively give your body a recipe for manufacturing some proteins

The mRNA vaccines now have a strong track record of being safe, since there has been a massive roll-out of billions of vaccines, with almost no serious adverse effects.

" it takes 7-12 years to approve a vaccine"

Incorrect. Most leading nations have approved multiple COVID vaccines, all in much less time than that. If what you mean to say is "in my personal, unprofessional opinion, it SHOULD take longer to approve a vaccine than it did," that's a different point.

18. You're more likely to die driving to get vaccinated than die of the vaccine.

Yes, 36,000 people die on the road each year, in the US alone. The hypochondriacs essentially assume all deaths that occur after someone gets the vaccine were caused by the vaccine, in order to claim that the shot kills lots of people. Most of them rely on a hilariously false understanding of how the vaccine database works, where they imagine every health issue that's reported there is caused by the vaccine, which is of course silly.

In reality, as of July 19, with 339 million doses administered, three deaths had been linked to vaccination. Let's say the average person drives 10 miles to get to the vaccine. That would be 3.39 billion miles driven. In the US, we get about 13.7 fatalities per billion vehicle miles traveled. So, we'd expect around 46 people to have died driving to get their vaccination, versus 3 dying from the vaccination itself. Even if the vaccine fatality figure were off by an order of magnitude, my statement would still be factual: you're more likely to die driving to get vaccinated than to die of the vaccine.

20. The vaccines also lower your risk of transmitting the virus to others

Yes, some vaccinated still get sick. However, they get sick less frequently than the unvaccinated and get better faster on average, which suggests less transmission. And population evidence supports that, with highly vaccinated areas having lower rates of new cases than low-vaccination areas, generally.
 

Mina Park

Council Member
I'll have to take your word for it. In Florida the excess deaths those first few months were much less than 24%. All I got from it was that Covid was real and about 5 times worse than the worse flu season. And I haven't looked at them since because the public health protocols have so affected human behavior such as amount of driving, keeping doctors visits, diets, changed exercise prerogatives, and what have you that excess deaths wouldn't tell you much about Covid itself. This is when you have to go back to the Covid specific numbers being reported and that's if you trust them implicitly. I don't.

Also, it became evident that when that 600,000 covid deaths was reported the likelier number was more like 400,000.

That's all.
When 600,000 COVID deaths were reported, the likelier number was more like 750,000.

There was intense political pressure in conservative states to understate the impact of the virus, because they were eager to justify early reopenings of businesses. There are a lot of gray-area cases where it's uncertain whether a given person would have died if he weren't infected by COVID -- like someone suffering from COVID dies of a cardiac arrest that may or may not have happened if he weren't infected. That allows politicians to pressure officials to resolve gray-area cases in favor of labeling a lot of COVID-involved deaths as something else.

We can see that in comparing admitted COVID deaths to excess mortality. In some states, they played things pretty straight, and COVID deaths were just slightly more than excess mortality, as we'd expect (with anti-COVID measures saving lives in other ways, like cutting down on transmission of other infectious diseases, and creating fewer workplace accidents, etc.) But in other states, excess mortality ran wildly above admitted COVID mortality.... and not the states where there were strong anti-COVID measures. Instead, it was in states like Texas where there was strong political pressure to undercount COVID.

When you look at the nation as a whole, that was the trend: most places were admitting far fewer COVID deaths than excess mortality would suggest. So, it's almost certain they were undercounting.
 

God of War

Lets go Brandon!
@Mina Park

Infallibility is the disease.

mRNA has no track record of being safe because no product using the tech has ever been delivered before. The mRNA induces the body to create a single epitope response to the S protein spike and not multiple epitopes to create a stronger immune response. A pure inoculum of S protein spike injected into lab animals created horrific vascular disease. The S protein is the infection. People being injected and having the worse adverse effects to the vaccine probably have asymptomatic Covid or the vaccination did not apply aspiration correctly to make sure the vaccine was being administered in an intramuscular fashion. The encapsulating lipids of the vaccine are being found in tissues all over the body to include higher presence in the ovaries. Lipids are not mRNA but... The efficacy of the mRNA vax is going down rapidly with time. Either the bug is evolving away or the immune response isn't as persistent as could be hoped for. Natural immunity to Coronavirus from the early 2000's is still found in those sickened at the time. Meaning...? I could go on with it takes 7-12 years to approve a vaccine in which time the long term effects as seen over years can be discovered. EUA to approved in under a year is a regulatory capture joke.

:0)
 
Evolution by natural selection. When genetic material replicates, random errors occasionally slip in. Some times those errors prove advantageous, from the perspective of being able to replicate further. The influenza virus is subject to the same force. It reproduces in numbers too great for the human mind to grasp, and sometimes that replication includes flaws. Once in a while, one of those will give rise to a new variant that proves more infectious, deadlier, or both. The Spanish flu was related to earlier seasonal flu varieties, but had mutated in a way that made it far deadlier, and which also made it infectious enough to become the dominant strain in the world for a couple years. Thus, the pandemic.

As for why it went away -- it stuck around for a couple years, by which time a pretty large share of the remaining human population had already had it and developed immunity to it, or had already been immune to it (due to natural immune system variations or a combination of earlier viruses that had taught the body to handle it). Once that portion of the population was large enough, you had "herd immunity," where the R0 for the virus (the average number of people someone would infect) dropped low enough that the disease quickly dwindled, much like a wildfire that has already burned up everything flammable around it. At that point, new variants that got around that resistance became the dominant strains -- but they proved less deadly, more in line with prior seasonal flus.

None of this is actually terribly difficult to understand. However, some people are drawn, for emotional reasons, to weird conspiracy theories instead.
The Ruling Scientific Clique Comprises Second-Raters Jealous of Superior Creative Scientists. So They Hate Modern Products, Such As the Automobile.

Every life form has a natural enemy. Auto emissions, which would have stopped the corona virus from ever spreading, also killed off its natural enemy.

What I don't like about the mutation theory is that it assumes that mutation into a deadly form is the answer to why there is a sudden outbreak. Second, it makes a virus immortal, assuming that there will be surviving mutations. If conditions on the surface changed so that humans had to grow wings to survive, mankind would go extinct. So there is a limit to what an orgasm can mutate into.
 
Some diseases are caused by viruses. Some by bacteria. Some by parasites. Some by poisons. Some by nutritional deficiencies. Some by genetic problems. Some by lifestyles. And so on. No sane person denies that. But the lunatic Queen Titania was pushing does. She rejected the idea that any diseases were caused by bacteria, viruses, or parasites, which she saw as merely symptoms of the underlying ailments.
Dumb Conformists Don't Notice This Obvious Trend

Another clue that it is a hoax is that nobody known by most Americans died from it, whereas Alzheimer's must be real because of Reagan, Heston, Campbell, et al. That is not from having a special cure unavailable to the public, as your imaginary conspiracists would claim. It is because the rich have a more varied diet, sparing no expense for herbs and supplements.

Why are so many rich people living to be 100? That's why. And that's why their enriched diet and expensive supplements have given them immunity to this Lockdown plague.
 

Mina Park

Council Member
@Mina Park

Infallibility is the disease.

mRNA has no track record of being safe because no product using the tech has ever been delivered before. The mRNA induces the body to create a single epitope response to the S protein spike and not multiple epitopes to create a stronger immune response. A pure inoculum of S protein spike injected into lab animals created horrific vascular disease. The S protein is the infection. People being injected and having the worse adverse effects to the vaccine probably have asymptomatic Covid or the vaccination did not apply aspiration correctly to make sure the vaccine was being administered in an intramuscular fashion. The encapsulating lipids of the vaccine are being found in tissues all over the body to include higher presence in the ovaries. Lipids are not mRNA but... The efficacy of the mRNA vax is going down rapidly with time. Either the bug is evolving away or the immune response isn't as persistent as could be hoped for. Natural immunity to Coronavirus from the early 2000's is still found in those sickened at the time. Meaning...? I could go on with it takes 7-12 years to approve a vaccine in which time the long term effects as seen over years can be discovered. EUA to approved in under a year is a regulatory capture joke.

:0)
COVID is the disease, and the mRNA vaccines have proven to be a remarkably safe and effective way to help control that disease. They first proved their safety in clinical trials. That data was convincing enough to shape the decisions of pretty much every scientifically advanced nation, leading to prompt approval.

They have since confirmed that initial finding of safety in the most massive vaccine roll-out in history, in which tracking of recipients confirms no statistically significant increase in serious health problems from the vaccines.

Of course, there are those who, for strictly partisan political reason, continue to want to push irrational fear about the vaccines. And maybe if it had just been one regulator under one administration in one country that had approved, they wouldn't sound like crazy people when they mumble incoherently about regulatory capture. But we're talking about initial authorization by the Trump FDA, further approval by the Biden FDA, and the same findings in literally scores of regulatory bodies all around the world, each with experts independently looking at the data and coming to the same conclusion.
 
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