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Mistrial in the Freddy Gray Case

connieb

Senator
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hung-jury-trial-baltimore-cop-freddie-gray-case-n481296

Of course this will just mean another trial. But, maybe another shot at a change of venue.

Here is my take. First of all - regardless of when he got injured, either in the take down, or in the van, in order to get to some sort of criminal charge you would have to prove that they either did something unusual or wrong. So, that would mean - they used unnecessary force or they didn't belt him in and were required to.

To the first part, that is why the bad arrest was so important to this case. IF it had been a bad arrest, then they could have said anything that happened afterwards was bad as well. The problem is they dropped this charge and accusation early on... why - because the knife was illegal under Balt. City law, and the SCOTUS had previously decided that running from law enforcement officers constituted probable cause for a stop, and during the stop, they had the right, to pat down a suspect for weapons. Once she had to toss this, she should have tossed the case, but she didn't.

Moving on, with regards to excessive force. The video does not show any excessive force. They were using proper holds and techniques. YES they are uncomfortable. They are designed to be so. Yes they immobilize the suspect, they are designed to do so. The issue of the buckling in is important. BUT - if they can prove that it was reasonable to not, that it was the current practice to not, that there was some other reason from deviating from that procedure that was reasonable, then not belting him in does not get him to a malicious intent to cause him harm. In this case, assuming he was not belted in and that caused the injury, the policy to belt him in, was issued very recently. The Prosecution could not prove that Porter had been made aware of this change in policy. They couldn't prove therefore it was outside the standard of care. Furthermore, it was the van driver's responsibility to secure the passenger, not Porter's. So, they can't get to either complete recklessness which is a wanton disregard for his safty or any malicious intent, because they did not intentionally on any of the video's rough him up, intentionally be mean to him or mistreat him, and they can't prove they knew of the policythey supposedly violated, and it wasn't even Porter's job - therefore no legal duty - to be the caretaker and belt him in. So, now they can't prove any sort of intent.

In so far as not calling for medical. They can't get there as a cause of his injuries. There was testimony that no matter when the abulance had been called when Porter was involved, it would not have made a difference with regards to his survival. Furthermore, they can not point to a procedure which indicates call medical for all cases all the time. Why? Becuase every criminal would be taking an abulance ride on every arrest. So, its left up to the judgement and when you leave something up to the judgement of someone else, then quite honestly you have to accept they have the chance to make amistake.

In this case I think it was the perfect storm of circumstances that lead to his death. But, it does not rise to criminal culpability unless someone INTENTIONALLY did something to harm him or drove recklessly, etc. Thankfully, at least one Juror, was more worried about following the letter of the law, than appeasing the unwashed masses.
 

Dawg

President
Supporting Member
not going to stop the city from riots........hey, it's Christmas and they need stuff under the tree.............remember Katrina and the big girl with a stuffed bear as big as she was wading in knee deep water__________stuff, any stuff will do.
 
the video of officers dragging a limp and shackled freddy gray to the van would contradict the prosecutions theory that he was injured by not having a seatbelt.

the testimony of other arrestees in the van that Freddy was "jumping around" would contradict the prosecutions theory that a 'rough ride' injured him.

I guess we should stand by for media interviews with the jury?

"I voted to convict, but that white bastard wouldn't go for it."

there goes the well meaning attempts to avoid more arson and looting
 

Jen

Senator
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hung-jury-trial-baltimore-cop-freddie-gray-case-n481296

Of course this will just mean another trial. But, maybe another shot at a change of venue.

Here is my take. First of all - regardless of when he got injured, either in the take down, or in the van, in order to get to some sort of criminal charge you would have to prove that they either did something unusual or wrong. So, that would mean - they used unnecessary force or they didn't belt him in and were required to.

To the first part, that is why the bad arrest was so important to this case. IF it had been a bad arrest, then they could have said anything that happened afterwards was bad as well. The problem is they dropped this charge and accusation early on... why - because the knife was illegal under Balt. City law, and the SCOTUS had previously decided that running from law enforcement officers constituted probable cause for a stop, and during the stop, they had the right, to pat down a suspect for weapons. Once she had to toss this, she should have tossed the case, but she didn't.

Moving on, with regards to excessive force. The video does not show any excessive force. They were using proper holds and techniques. YES they are uncomfortable. They are designed to be so. Yes they immobilize the suspect, they are designed to do so. The issue of the buckling in is important. BUT - if they can prove that it was reasonable to not, that it was the current practice to not, that there was some other reason from deviating from that procedure that was reasonable, then not belting him in does not get him to a malicious intent to cause him harm. In this case, assuming he was not belted in and that caused the injury, the policy to belt him in, was issued very recently. The Prosecution could not prove that Porter had been made aware of this change in policy. They couldn't prove therefore it was outside the standard of care. Furthermore, it was the van driver's responsibility to secure the passenger, not Porter's. So, they can't get to either complete recklessness which is a wanton disregard for his safty or any malicious intent, because they did not intentionally on any of the video's rough him up, intentionally be mean to him or mistreat him, and they can't prove they knew of the policythey supposedly violated, and it wasn't even Porter's job - therefore no legal duty - to be the caretaker and belt him in. So, now they can't prove any sort of intent.

In so far as not calling for medical. They can't get there as a cause of his injuries. There was testimony that no matter when the abulance had been called when Porter was involved, it would not have made a difference with regards to his survival. Furthermore, they can not point to a procedure which indicates call medical for all cases all the time. Why? Becuase every criminal would be taking an abulance ride on every arrest. So, its left up to the judgement and when you leave something up to the judgement of someone else, then quite honestly you have to accept they have the chance to make amistake.

In this case I think it was the perfect storm of circumstances that lead to his death. But, it does not rise to criminal culpability unless someone INTENTIONALLY did something to harm him or drove recklessly, etc. Thankfully, at least one Juror, was more worried about following the letter of the law, than appeasing the unwashed masses.
The letter of the law needs to be followed every step of the way. Thus far it looks like it has been. I hope it continues. A hung jury is part of the process. We always hope there won't be a hung jury; everyone needs an actual answer. But that's still part of the process of things that could happen. This trial was NOT any sort of racist thing. The defendant is black and half (I don't have an exact number here) of the jury was also black. No racial element.
 

Spamature

President
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hung-jury-trial-baltimore-cop-freddie-gray-case-n481296

Of course this will just mean another trial. But, maybe another shot at a change of venue.

Here is my take. First of all - regardless of when he got injured, either in the take down, or in the van, in order to get to some sort of criminal charge you would have to prove that they either did something unusual or wrong. So, that would mean - they used unnecessary force or they didn't belt him in and were required to.

To the first part, that is why the bad arrest was so important to this case. IF it had been a bad arrest, then they could have said anything that happened afterwards was bad as well. The problem is they dropped this charge and accusation early on... why - because the knife was illegal under Balt. City law, and the SCOTUS had previously decided that running from law enforcement officers constituted probable cause for a stop, and during the stop, they had the right, to pat down a suspect for weapons. Once she had to toss this, she should have tossed the case, but she didn't.

Moving on, with regards to excessive force. The video does not show any excessive force. They were using proper holds and techniques. YES they are uncomfortable. They are designed to be so. Yes they immobilize the suspect, they are designed to do so. The issue of the buckling in is important. BUT - if they can prove that it was reasonable to not, that it was the current practice to not, that there was some other reason from deviating from that procedure that was reasonable, then not belting him in does not get him to a malicious intent to cause him harm. In this case, assuming he was not belted in and that caused the injury, the policy to belt him in, was issued very recently. The Prosecution could not prove that Porter had been made aware of this change in policy. They couldn't prove therefore it was outside the standard of care. Furthermore, it was the van driver's responsibility to secure the passenger, not Porter's. So, they can't get to either complete recklessness which is a wanton disregard for his safty or any malicious intent, because they did not intentionally on any of the video's rough him up, intentionally be mean to him or mistreat him, and they can't prove they knew of the policythey supposedly violated, and it wasn't even Porter's job - therefore no legal duty - to be the caretaker and belt him in. So, now they can't prove any sort of intent.

In so far as not calling for medical. They can't get there as a cause of his injuries. There was testimony that no matter when the abulance had been called when Porter was involved, it would not have made a difference with regards to his survival. Furthermore, they can not point to a procedure which indicates call medical for all cases all the time. Why? Becuase every criminal would be taking an abulance ride on every arrest. So, its left up to the judgement and when you leave something up to the judgement of someone else, then quite honestly you have to accept they have the chance to make amistake.

In this case I think it was the perfect storm of circumstances that lead to his death. But, it does not rise to criminal culpability unless someone INTENTIONALLY did something to harm him or drove recklessly, etc. Thankfully, at least one Juror, was more worried about following the letter of the law, than appeasing the unwashed masses.
Would the fact that he's dead indicate something unusual or wrong took place ?
 

Spamature

President
the video of officers dragging a limp and shackled freddy gray to the van would contradict the prosecutions theory that he was injured by not having a seatbelt.

the testimony of other arrestees in the van that Freddy was "jumping around" would contradict the prosecutions theory that a 'rough ride' injured him.

I guess we should stand by for media interviews with the jury?

"I voted to convict, but that white bastard wouldn't go for it."

there goes the well meaning attempts to avoid more arson and looting
Doesn't testimony of other arrestees saying he was "jumping around" contradict him being seat belted ?
 

Dawg

President
Supporting Member
Doesn't testimony of other arrestees saying he was "jumping around" contradict him being seat belted ?

How does one jump around with a broke back? $Millions will be spent on the other trials and same verdicts forthcoming.

Oh well, I don't pay taxes there, go for it dem/libs.
 

connieb

Senator
Would the fact that he's dead indicate something unusual or wrong took place ?
Yes. An accident. Accidents shouldn't be crimina
Would the fact that he's dead indicate something unusual or wrong took place ?
Yes, an accident. An unforseen circumstance. Do you know how many people are probably forcibly taken down without serious injury? Do you know how many criminals they have transported in vans without serious injury? Why would they have assumed in this case, that something would go wrong? The answer is they had no reason to. To them it was like any other arrest, an combative detainee, bullcrapping about needing medical help. Same crap different day.

You need to prove they either did something maliciously to him, or so far outside the standard of care that it rose to criminal. I don't see that in the evidence I have seen and obviously at least one person in the jury didn't either.

connie
 

connieb

Senator
the video of officers dragging a limp and shackled freddy gray to the van would contradict the prosecutions theory that he was injured by not having a seatbelt.

the testimony of other arrestees in the van that Freddy was "jumping around" would contradict the prosecutions theory that a 'rough ride' injured him.

I guess we should stand by for media interviews with the jury?

"I voted to convict, but that white bastard wouldn't go for it."

there goes the well meaning attempts to avoid more arson and looting

I don't think it matters either way. You don't get to reckless disregard by a legal but forceful takedown, or by not buckling in a person when your SOP had always been to not buckle in. Was it civilily negligent, perhaps. Criminally, so? No way. and, honestly I don't want to set the precident that basically one error of judgement is a criminal situation. EVEN if he knew he was supposed to buckle him in and did not, it would not be criminal unless he knew he was likely to be seriously injured. I don't like criminalizing mistakes. Even when those mistakes cost lives, unless they were made with an extreme disregard for another person's safety.

connie
 

Spamature

President
Yes. An accident. Accidents shouldn't be crimina


Yes, an accident. An unforseen circumstance. Do you know how many people are probably forcibly taken down without serious injury? Do you know how many criminals they have transported in vans without serious injury? Why would they have assumed in this case, that something would go wrong? The answer is they had no reason to. To them it was like any other arrest, an combative detainee, bullcrapping about needing medical help. Same crap different day.

You need to prove they either did something maliciously to him, or so far outside the standard of care that it rose to criminal. I don't see that in the evidence I have seen and obviously at least one person in the jury didn't either.

connie
Accident ? More like negligence. Maybe criminal negligence. Why they didn't act appropriately is besides the point. The fact remains they didn't and a person for whom they had care and custody was killed in the act in the process. Why is no more relevant here than it is when a toddler dies after being left in a car on a hot day.
 
D

Deleted member 21794

Guest
the video of officers dragging a limp and shackled freddy gray to the van would contradict the prosecutions theory that he was injured by not having a seatbelt.

the testimony of other arrestees in the van that Freddy was "jumping around" would contradict the prosecutions theory that a 'rough ride' injured him.

I guess we should stand by for media interviews with the jury?

"I voted to convict, but that white bastard wouldn't go for it."

there goes the well meaning attempts to avoid more arson and looting
I think the savages will find reason enough to riot in Baltimore. Sad.
 
D

Deleted member 21794

Guest
Accident ? More like negligence. Maybe criminal negligence. Why they didn't act appropriately is besides the point. The fact remains they didn't and a person for whom they had care and custody was killed in the act in the process. Why is no more relevant here than it is when a toddler dies after being left in a car on a hot day.
Holy crap you got one right! Wow!
 

connieb

Senator
Accident ? More like negligence. Maybe criminal negligence. Why they didn't act appropriately is besides the point. The fact remains they didn't and a person for whom they had care and custody was killed in the act in the process. Why is no more relevant here than it is when a toddler dies after being left in a car on a hot day.
Why they didn't "act appropriately" and more importantly what defined appropriate in this situation is EXACTLY the point. Who had the responsibiliyt to act, what they were expected to do, and why they did not do it, is the crux of the problem. Just because a tragic death results does not make a person's mistake criminal. You have to prove that person in particular was responsible for his care, custody and safety and then you have to prove that that person acted either maliciously or with such disregard for his safety that it rose to criminal.

If you transport a person every day and they are never buckled and to your knowledge they never break their neck, then you would have no reason to forsee that transporting them in that way would break their neck, ergo you did not act with any reckless disregard to his safety. That is completely different than a parent who leaves a kid in a car. Because that particular parent did have a duty of care ( as opposed to an officer not the van driver) and that you should know that leaving a child in a hot car could cause death or serious injury. And, so doing so is done either maliciously or with extreme disregard for their safety.

The legal standard is COMPLETELY different than the layman standard. As it should be.

connie
 

Spamature

President
Why they didn't "act appropriately" and more importantly what defined appropriate in this situation is EXACTLY the point. Who had the responsibiliyt to act, what they were expected to do, and why they did not do it, is the crux of the problem. Just because a tragic death results does not make a person's mistake criminal. You have to prove that person in particular was responsible for his care, custody and safety and then you have to prove that that person acted either maliciously or with such disregard for his safety that it rose to criminal.
When someone is arrested the police are responsible for their care. Which person in particular is up to the protocols the department uses. Pretending that they don't know which person is responsible goes to show negligence.

If you transport a person every day and they are never buckled and to your knowledge they never break their neck, then you would have no reason to forsee that transporting them in that way would break their neck, ergo you did not act with any reckless disregard to his safety. That is completely different than a parent who leaves a kid in a car. Because that particular parent did have a duty of care ( as opposed to an officer not the van driver) and that you should know that leaving a child in a hot car could cause death or serious injury. And, so doing so is done either maliciously or with extreme disregard for their safety.
The fact that the vehicle has seat belts tells you, you are supposed to use them. The fact that police will cite a person for his passengers not being seat belted tells you that the law requires they be used on passengers. Feigning ignorance or actual ignorance is no more an excuse for the police than it is for members of the public.

The legal standard is COMPLETELY different than the layman standard. As it should be.

connie
No it isn't and no it shouldn't .
 
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Accident ? More like negligence. Maybe criminal negligence. Why they didn't act appropriately is beside the point. The fact remains they didn't and a person for whom they had care and custody was killed in the act in the process. Why is no more relevant here than it is when a toddler dies after being left in a car on a hot day.
Black Lawyers Matter

In order to fake a lawsuit for police brutality, Freddy Kruegray purposely injured himself but went too far.
 
When someone is arrested the police are responsible for their care. .
actually, that is NOT true.

in a nearby state a municipal police officer stopped a car full of latinos (yes,, they were illegal aliens, but they were stopped for having expired tags or something)

the aliens actually parked their car ON A RAILROAD CROSSING.

a train hit the vehicle, and all occupants were killed, while the officer was doing paperwork in his own vehicle.

he was sued for "wrongful death". he was acquitted - the driver parked his car in an unsafe manner, and was responsible for his own actions.
 

Spamature

President
actually, that is NOT true.

in a nearby state a municipal police officer stopped a car full of latinos (yes,, they were illegal aliens, but they were stopped for having expired tags or something)

the aliens actually parked their car ON A RAILROAD CROSSING.

a train hit the vehicle, and all occupants were killed, while the officer was doing paperwork in his own vehicle.

he was sued for "wrongful death". he was acquitted - the driver parked his car in an unsafe manner, and was responsible for his own actions.
They weren't in custody at that time. Detained yes, but they were not in the custody of that officer. Had he put them in the back seat of his car and it was on the train tracks then that would have been another story I am sure.
 
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