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Actually, I DO have a solution to this . . . (immigration reform)

Several PJ posters have been touting – and lamenting – various aspects of “immigration reform”. They point out “the present system is broken” (as are public schools, pentagon procurement, and the entire congress). “The Mexican border is too long to patrol” (but it’s far shorter than our border with Canada, which has worse weather and more tree/vegetation cover). “We will be rewarding lawbreakers if simply make them all citizens” (Some native born citizens are far less praiseworthy than the typical illegal immigrant, though).

Some sort of amnesty is going to happen. Gecko probably has that part right. And it will be “light” on the reform side, and heavy on the naturalization side, for sure. The GOP dare not enter another election cycle with the albatross of again bitch slapping the entire Hispanic community.

I have a possible solution. I concede that 2,000 miles is too long for a fence, and that drones are unlikely to stop anyone. ( A well placed rifle or shotgun blast can probably down one.) What we need is an incentive to get immigrants to “play by the rules” – apply legally and take their turn. We do this at the grocery store, Best Buy, the airport. Nobody rushes the cashier or boarding gate en masse because they’re tired of waiting in line. If they did, they’d be banned .

That’s what I propose as part of immigration reform. The present “path to citizenship” is probably as good a compromise as possible, in today’s environment. But make this “the last time” we surrender to illegal aliens. If you enter the US illegally after “date” (December 31, 2013?), then you FOREVER have surrendered your rights to citizenship, or a work visa. You may never live or work legally in America. You will be deported immediately upon arrest for anything – even a traffic violation.

Sounds harsh to some, I bet. But fences and visa reform rules aren’t going to get the job done. We can’t simply come back to this, every decade or two, and re-naturalize all the cheaters who arrived since the last so-called immigration reform.

Foreigners – you have to play by the rules everyone else lives by. Apply for the visa – whether it’s for an employer, or with relatives, or even political refugee status. Don’t wade across the Rio Grande at midnight, or even try to sneak with a false passport or student visa assigned to someone else. We will photograph you, fingerprint you, and DNA sample you. And you are never allowed a regular visa or citizenship.

I now open the floor to debate – please tell me why this won’t work. Those who never intended “immigration reform” to prevent new illegal immigration, you have the floor first, of course (I don’t even need to say this). Please give us an earful about how the bill before congress – which changes virtually nothing – is going to fix everything. Why shouldn’t we draw a line in the sand, instead of a wall? It’s cheaper, and more effective.

Full disclosure – I imagine a bunch of other countries already do what I’m proposing. Is there an expert on immigration law in this forum?
 
My wife emigrated to America legally. It was a long and drawn-out process, several years in fact, but she went through the process and did everything that was required of her. She is now a proud US citizen.

I do not believe it unreasonable to ask others to do the same. There should be a path to citizenship, but it should be orderly and thorough. No line-jumping, no demanding everything be made easy. It doesn't work that way in any other country, why should it here?
 
My wife emigrated to America legally. It was a long and drawn-out process, several years in fact, but she went through the process and did everything that was required of her. She is now a proud US citizen.

I do not believe it unreasonable to ask others to do the same. There should be a path to citizenship, but it should be orderly and thorough. No line-jumping, no demanding everything be made easy. It doesn't work that way in any other country, why should it here?

Same hoops I jumped through....and my extended family. We earned our citizenship.
 
I understand the importance of all this. And I get it's a touchy subject, but I, as an american born citizen, feel uncomfortable in this debate. I didn't earn anything. I didn't jump through hoops nor did I prove myself worthy, in any way, to take part in this great country. I was born here, that's it. I'm not diminishing immigration laws, I just feel bad for those illegals that are made to feel less than me, even though they may end up being a much greater American than I.
 
What do you do about those that did not cross the border but came here on a visa but overstayed???

See many people see the illegal immigration to be a Mexico vs U.S. problem but what is lost those that overstayed and were not deported, so how do we deal with them???
 
My wife emigrated to America legally. It was a long and drawn-out process, several years in fact, but she went through the process and did everything that was required of her. She is now a proud US citizen.

I do not believe it unreasonable to ask others to do the same. There should be a path to citizenship, but it should be orderly and thorough. No line-jumping, no demanding everything be made easy. It doesn't work that way in any other country, why should it here?

zam - thanks for your reply. people who carry car insurance shouldn't be made to feel like fools because some [Unwelcome language removed] drive uninsured. people who play by the immigration rules shouldn't feel like they wasted their time either.
 
What do you do about those that did not cross the border but came here on a visa but overstayed???

See many people see the illegal immigration to be a Mexico vs U.S. problem but what is lost those that overstayed and were not deported, so how do we deal with them???

i think people who "overstayed" are much less of a problem than "never intended to come legally". that said, if you overstay and are convicted of a felony, that should result in immediate deportation. there is no excuse for releasing these people on their own recognizance, and assuming they're goign to show up for trial months later. misdemeanors - not such a problem. but if you're facing charges for armed robbery, carjacking, drug smuggling, conspiracy, etc - out you go. or no bail if you're hear illegally - you can't be released pending trial.
 
My wife emigrated to America legally. It was a long and drawn-out process, several years in fact, but she went through the process and did everything that was required of her. She is now a proud US citizen.

I do not believe it unreasonable to ask others to do the same. There should be a path to citizenship, but it should be orderly and thorough. No line-jumping, no demanding everything be made easy. It doesn't work that way in any other country, why should it here?

ohhh zam! you knocked one out of the park!
 
we could hang a banner from the arm of the statue of liberty {blocking all the "give me your" etc.} saying "Closed until further notice"..

then blow out the flame....
 
I understand the importance of all this. And I get it's a touchy subject, but I, as an american born citizen, feel uncomfortable in this debate. I didn't earn anything. I didn't jump through hoops nor did I prove myself worthy, in any way, to take part in this great country. I was born here, that's it. I'm not diminishing immigration laws, I just feel bad for those illegals that are made to feel less than me, even though they may end up being a much greater American than I.

and in the words of a great man, "I feel your pain"...

just realize you are not to blame.
its a good thing to empathise with the less fortunate...and if it leads you to a position in life that allows you to help them,,then you win and in turn the ones you help win, and in turn,,,,

its just a win-win situation!
 
we could hang a banner from the arm of the statue of liberty {blocking all the "give me your" etc.} saying "Closed until further notice"..

then blow out the flame....

good point - but can you name ANY country which accept undocumented immigrants, no questions asked, in unlimited volumes?

the nations we feel "closest" to - liberal western democracies such as Britain, France, etc - all have MUCH more restrictive immigration laws than the USA.
 
Several PJ posters have been touting – and lamenting – various aspects of “immigration reform”. They point out “the present system is broken” (as are public schools, pentagon procurement, and the entire congress). “The Mexican border is too long to patrol” (but it’s far shorter than our border with Canada, which has worse weather and more tree/vegetation cover). “We will be rewarding lawbreakers if simply make them all citizens” (Some native born citizens are far less praiseworthy than the typical illegal immigrant, though).

Some sort of amnesty is going to happen. Gecko probably has that part right. And it will be “light” on the reform side, and heavy on the naturalization side, for sure. The GOP dare not enter another election cycle with the albatross of again bitch slapping the entire Hispanic community.

I have a possible solution. I concede that 2,000 miles is too long for a fence, and that drones are unlikely to stop anyone. ( A well placed rifle or shotgun blast can probably down one.) What we need is an incentive to get immigrants to “play by the rules” – apply legally and take their turn. We do this at the grocery store, Best Buy, the airport. Nobody rushes the cashier or boarding gate en masse because they’re tired of waiting in line. If they did, they’d be banned .

That’s what I propose as part of immigration reform. The present “path to citizenship” is probably as good a compromise as possible, in today’s environment. But make this “the last time” we surrender to illegal aliens. If you enter the US illegally after “date” (December 31, 2013?), then you FOREVER have surrendered your rights to citizenship, or a work visa. You may never live or work legally in America. You will be deported immediately upon arrest for anything – even a traffic violation.

Sounds harsh to some, I bet. But fences and visa reform rules aren’t going to get the job done. We can’t simply come back to this, every decade or two, and re-naturalize all the cheaters who arrived since the last so-called immigration reform.

Foreigners – you have to play by the rules everyone else lives by. Apply for the visa – whether it’s for an employer, or with relatives, or even political refugee status. Don’t wade across the Rio Grande at midnight, or even try to sneak with a false passport or student visa assigned to someone else. We will photograph you, fingerprint you, and DNA sample you. And you are never allowed a regular visa or citizenship.

I now open the floor to debate – please tell me why this won’t work. Those who never intended “immigration reform” to prevent new illegal immigration, you have the floor first, of course (I don’t even need to say this). Please give us an earful about how the bill before congress – which changes virtually nothing – is going to fix everything. Why shouldn’t we draw a line in the sand, instead of a wall? It’s cheaper, and more effective.

Full disclosure – I imagine a bunch of other countries already do what I’m proposing. Is there an expert on immigration law in this forum?

Your Best Buy analogy is interesting, since looking at it more closely shows why things don't work that way in the immigration debate. For starters, consider the lengths of time involved. The difference between cutting in line at Best Buy or politely waiting your turn is, generally, just a minute or two, and, at worst (say, Black Friday), the better part of an hour. The difference between going through the formal immigration process and just hiking over the border (or overstaying a visa) is potentially YEARS.

Also consider the different driving motives. Your incentive for shortening your time in the Best Buy line is to shorten a mildly unpleasant delay and get on with other errands. Your incentive for shortening your wait for immigration, by comparison, might well seem like life or death -- if your loved ones are suffering with third-world unemployment, and the malnutrition and poor medical care that involves, getting yourself to the land of opportunity as fast as possible could seem less like cutting in line to buy a gadget faster at Best Buy, and more like cutting in line to get a life boat from a sinking ship.

I think that if we could make the legitimate path to immigration broad enough and fast enough, we could greatly cut down on illegal immigration. But that would involve tolerating a much, much higher level of legal immigration, and I don't think many people are going to be on board with that. If the goal is to greatly reduce illegal immigration while keeping total immigration low, we don't have a whole lot of options. As long as lots of jobs remain available in the US at pay rates that seem like a dream to the billions of people living in poorer nations, immigration levels will remain very high, whether we allow it to be legal or we set up a situation where they come here illegally, instead.

Your idea of having people who come here illegally, in the future, become ineligible for legal immigration in the future, will not, I think, serve as much of a disincentive. I don't think people who come here illegally have a mindset of thinking that it's necessarily a long-term thing, and they're unlikely to be willing to wait years to come here legally, just because if they jump in line they can't come back once they're caught. I think they're generally just focused on their immediate situation and trying to improve that.

That's why my own focus would be on drying up illegal job opportunities. If you crack down on illegal employers (who generally have much more to lose, and thus are much easier to deter), then the jobs that lure people here illegally will dwindle, and people will have a lot less incentive to come here. If your choice is between relatively sure employment in Mexico at awful wages, or good pay in the US if you can find work, but almost no chance of finding a job, you're a lot more likely to stay home.
 
Your Best Buy analogy is interesting, since looking at it more closely shows why things don't work that way in the immigration debate. .

too funny - people line up at best buy - with tents, lawn chairs, etc - DAYS in advance to get some coveted item. you evidently don't have a television?



here's an interesting experiment - try to cut to the head of the line when people are lined up for the hottest new phone or videogame, and see what happens. try cutting to the head of the line at the checkout. or leaving without showing your receipt.

i don't know about YOUR best buy location, but the one closest to my apartment has a "banned for life" listing if you interact with the security department.
 
My answer:

Request Mexico to join the Union along with Canada, and then build the fence along Mexico border...

Think about it before the knee-jerk reaction...
 
good point - but can you name ANY country which accept undocumented immigrants, no questions asked, in unlimited volumes?

the nations we feel "closest" to - liberal western democracies such as Britain, France, etc - all have MUCH more restrictive immigration laws than the USA.

you thought i was kidding?

wanna be famous?

seriously,,,we, the people, allowed this to happen..for 50 plus years we, the people turned a blind eye to illegal immigration because the immigrants served our purpose, cheap labor.....right after ww2, when all the soldiers returned home, there were very few jobs for them...and , i think it was Eisenhower, launched "Operation Wetback" {no intent to offend anyone, but that was the name} and within a very short span of time, rounded up and deported tens of thousands of illegals ......we are faced with a low est. of 10 to 15 million illegals...it is insane to think we can deport that many,,,NOR SHOULD WE TRY...its such a massively complicated problem that no one answer will suffice, breaking up otherwise law abiding, established family's, etc. is not the right thing to do...concessions have to be made,,,figure out a way where BOTH sides think its THEIR answer....i have seen the ww2 internment camps where our govt held the japanese/american citizens until it was over...i never want to feel that shame again....
 
too funny - people line up at best buy - with tents, lawn chairs, etc - DAYS in advance to get some coveted item. you evidently don't have a television?



here's an interesting experiment - try to cut to the head of the line when people are lined up for the hottest new phone or videogame, and see what happens. try cutting to the head of the line at the checkout. or leaving without showing your receipt.

i don't know about YOUR best buy location, but the one closest to my apartment has a "banned for life" listing if you interact with the security department.

"banned for life"
:)
 
you thought i was kidding?

wanna be famous?

seriously,,,we, the people, allowed this to happen..for 50 plus years we, the people turned a blind eye to illegal immigration because the immigrants served our purpose, cheap labor.....right after ww2, when all the soldiers returned home, there were very few jobs for them...and , i think it was Eisenhower, launched "Operation Wetback" {no intent to offend anyone, but that was the name} and within a very short span of time, rounded up and deported tens of thousands of illegals ......we are faced with a low est. of 10 to 15 million illegals...it is insane to think we can deport that many,,,NOR SHOULD WE TRY...its such a massively complicated problem that no one answer will suffice, breaking up otherwise law abiding, established family's, etc. is not the right thing to do...concessions have to be made,,,figure out a way where BOTH sides think its THEIR answer....i have seen the internment camps where our govt held the japanese/american citizens until it was over...i never want to feel that shame again....

america's record of immigration, minority treatment, slavery etc is a barometer for worldwide moral development at the time. our treatment of japanese residents in world war 2 was a low point, but still preferable to the japanese using nanking babies for bayonette practice, or american POWs for germ warfare experiments.

i don't feel "shame" for what my ancestors did generations ago - i feel a sense of responsiblity to "get it right" when it's my turn, and be informed by past mistakes.
 
My answer:

Request Mexico to join the Union along with Canada, and then build the fence along Mexico border...

Think about it before the knee-jerk reaction...

mexico already has us, and canada dont want us...

so the only answer is to post 100s of 8x10 southern facing signs along our southern border saying in spanish "Welcome to Canada, now go home"..worth a try?
 
america's record of immigration, minority treatment, slavery etc is a barometer for worldwide moral development at the time. our treatment of japanese residents in world war 2 was a low point, but still preferable to the japanese using nanking babies for bayonette practice, or american POWs for germ warfare experiments.

i don't feel "shame" for what my ancestors did generations ago - i feel a sense of responsiblity to "get it right" when it's my turn, and be informed by past mistakes.

i felt none either,,,until i stood on the base of the central guard tower and looked down where the hundreds of barracks had been, once filled with american families, who had committed no crime,,,and that reminded me of slavery, the suffering,,,, and, well long story short, i was glad i was alone....
 
Your Best Buy analogy is interesting, since looking at it more closely shows why things don't work that way in the immigration debate. For starters, consider the lengths of time involved. The difference between cutting in line at Best Buy or politely waiting your turn is, generally, just a minute or two, and, at worst (say, Black Friday), the better part of an hour. The difference between going through the formal immigration process and just hiking over the border (or overstaying a visa) is potentially YEARS.

Also consider the different driving motives. Your incentive for shortening your time in the Best Buy line is to shorten a mildly unpleasant delay and get on with other errands. Your incentive for shortening your wait for immigration, by comparison, might well seem like life or death -- if your loved ones are suffering with third-world unemployment, and the malnutrition and poor medical care that involves, getting yourself to the land of opportunity as fast as possible could seem less like cutting in line to buy a gadget faster at Best Buy, and more like cutting in line to get a life boat from a sinking ship.

I think that if we could make the legitimate path to immigration broad enough and fast enough, we could greatly cut down on illegal immigration. But that would involve tolerating a much, much higher level of legal immigration, and I don't think many people are going to be on board with that. If the goal is to greatly reduce illegal immigration while keeping total immigration low, we don't have a whole lot of options. As long as lots of jobs remain available in the US at pay rates that seem like a dream to the billions of people living in poorer nations, immigration levels will remain very high, whether we allow it to be legal or we set up a situation where they come here illegally, instead.

Your idea of having people who come here illegally, in the future, become ineligible for legal immigration in the future, will not, I think, serve as much of a disincentive. I don't think people who come here illegally have a mindset of thinking that it's necessarily a long-term thing, and they're unlikely to be willing to wait years to come here legally, just because if they jump in line they can't come back once they're caught. I think they're generally just focused on their immediate situation and trying to improve that.

That's why my own focus would be on drying up illegal job opportunities. If you crack down on illegal employers (who generally have much more to lose, and thus are much easier to deter), then the jobs that lure people here illegally will dwindle, and people will have a lot less incentive to come here. If your choice is between relatively sure employment in Mexico at awful wages, or good pay in the US if you can find work, but almost no chance of finding a job, you're a lot more likely to stay home.





Not cutting ahead in line is certainly inconvenient, whether we are talking about minutes or years. Cutting ahead in line is also always going to be unfair to those who wait their turn. No way around that, I'm afraid. If we are going to allow that, we are punishing those who play by the rules.
 
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