Another reason I’m ambivalent about immigration reform . . .

[as seen on tv]

Full disclosure – I don’t hate immigrants. Some of closest friends are (legal) immigrants, and the average immigrant works harder and is less likely to be a substance abuser than the native born slackers I run into.

That said, I’m increasingly troubled by the turn in the immigration debate towards “the shortage of farm workers”

I am somewhat astonished to hear that with 12 million plus illegal alien Mexicans in this country, we are experiencing a shortage in people who pick strawberries, tomatoes, and other crops which are too delicate for mechanical harvesting. Migrant farm workers probably do other things than pick too, but let’s focus on that for a bit. Strawberries, Tomatoes, Peppers, Cucumbers, Melons, blueberries, raspberries, etc etc. Probably apples and citrus fruits too.

If we don’t have enough agricultural workers now, with so many unemployed citizens PLUS the millions who came here specifically to take crappy jobs that “real” Americans don’t want to do, I’m not sure the solution is more low wage – but legal – migrant labor from south of the border. Is this an endless feedback loop? People come here, as virtual (but legal) short term slave labor to pick tomatoes, and then drift away to the big city, where they overstay their visas and take illegal work? And we continue to replenish the farm workers with more short term slave labor?

I’m old enough to have seen several iterations of video exposes on the mistreatment of migrant farm labor, including the one that got Steven Colbert rebuked in congress. Does anyone believe that immigration reform will lead to adequate wages, housing, and healthcare for farm workers? The whole reason agribusiness needs to import desperate people from Mexico is BECAUSE those working conditions are unsatisfactory for our own unemployed.

We’re apparently not about to have another 1930’s dust bowl, resulting a migration of people from other states to California. And even if we did have years of drought, nobody is going to cheer a 21st century “life imitates art” remake of the “The Grapes of Wrath” as the solution to a farm worker shortage.

Immigration reform – at least this aspect of it: large number of exploited foreign workers – doesn’t appeal to me.

Full disclosure – the tomatoes on my patio are coming along fine. At least 4 varieties. I always struggle more with the peppers. Strawberries are abundant in the stores now – evidently from Florida. I don’t think migrant farm workers from Mexico picked them, but I could be wrong. Pick your own strawberries will be happening at local Maryland farms before the end of the month, and extend through July and august.

 

[GordonGecko]

Couple of points-

1. Your FIRST "Full Disclosure"...is an actual "Full Disclosure". Talking about your tomato plants in a post on immigration is not a "Full Disclosure"...again...it's an Addendum or "On a side-note".

2. "illegal alien Mexicans"??? You know there's so much wrong...and weird about that line....I just don't know where to start. Except not all illegal immigrants are Mexican....and I don't believe ANY of them are from other planets.

3. Doesn't matter how you feel about immigration reform....Marco's going to get it passed, WITH a pathway to citizenship (what's called "amnesty") in it. It's GOING to happen.

 

[as seen on tv]

gecko - nothwithstanding your championing marcos bill, i perversely cling to the retrograde belief that we should know whats in a bill before we pass it.

i have nothing against a pathway to citizenship. but how realistic is it to tell those who chose this path that they will be excluded from most government programs for years - or decades?

i agree that our high tech industry has a shortage of engineers; our hospitals have a shortage of nurses; our farms have a shortage of peasant migrant workers.

we also have a huge number of students who not only don't go to college, but drop out of high school. we have engineering and nursing programs with vacancies, because of the astonishingly high tuition. But we're willing to allow those with inexpensive, governement subsidized degrees from 3rd world nations come in to fill our job openings?

is the "mandate" that the INS "catch or deter" 90% of mexico's illegal aliens at the border achievable? is it even measurable, whether or not you believe it can be done?

i'm not disputing the notion that the public agrees the "present system is broken". the premise i'm advancing is that people who actually read the legislation might conclude that this is just a replay of reagan's 1986 amnesty, which didn't fix anything either. its a re-election sound bite, not a solution.

 

[GordonGecko]

i have nothing against a pathway to citizenship.....

Well, guess what?....that's "amnesty"!

... under a lot of the definitions the Nativists throw around. "Kick 'em all out" is their policy, not providing a legal means for those who came here illegally to obtain legal status within the United States....i.e. a "pathway to citizenship".

 

[NightSwimmer]

I’m old enough to have seen several iterations of video exposes on the mistreatment of migrant farm labor, including the one that got Steven Colbert rebuked in congress.

Actually, Steve King is the person who was "rebuked" when Colbert testified in Congress. He attempted to force Colbert to leave because he didn't want to hear his testimony, but he failed in that attempt.

 

[as seen on tv]

according to polls, "kick them all out" is favored by only about 20% of the population. and some of those (how many?) are blacks and other "historically deprived" groups who fear that unskilled immigrants could drag down wages in "starter" jobs.

 

[as seen on tv]

Actually, Steve King is the person who was "rebuked" when Colbert testified in Congress. He attempted to force Colbert to leave because he didn't want to hear his testimony, but he failed in that attempt.

abc new says you're trying to rewrite history, and are wrong http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/stephen-colbert-asked-testify-immigration/story?id=11717624&page=2

 

[GordonGecko]

according to polls, "kick them all out" is favored by only about 20% of the population. and some of those (how many?) are blacks and other "historically deprived" groups who fear that unskilled immigrants could drag down wages in "starter" jobs.

That 20% is in the Hard Right more than blacks. Pat Buchanan and Sheriff Joe Arpaio aren't appealing to a "diverse" audience.

 

[NightSwimmer]

That 20% is in the Hard Right more than blacks. Pat Buchanan and Sheriff Joe Arpaio aren't appealing to a "diverse" audience.

Not a bad tactic though, if they could make it work. Simply convince the poor blacks to turn against the poor browns. Nixon invented the tactic, when he hatched his plan to turn the poor Southern whites against the poor Southern blacks.

However, as LBJ well understood, Nixon himself couldn't have pulled it off had the Democrats not managed to pass civil rights reforms in 1964.

 

[trapdoor]

Well, guess what?....that's "amnesty"!

... under a lot of the definitions the Nativists throw around. "Kick 'em all out" is their policy, not providing a legal means for those who came here illegally to obtain legal status within the United States....i.e. a "pathway to citizenship".

How can you come here illegally to obtain legal status?

 

[Arkady]

Full disclosure – I don’t hate immigrants. Some of closest friends are (legal) immigrants, and the average immigrant works harder and is less likely to be a substance abuser than the native born slackers I run into.

That said, I’m increasingly troubled by the turn in the immigration debate towards “the shortage of farm workers”

I am somewhat astonished to hear that with 12 million plus illegal alien Mexicans in this country, we are experiencing a shortage in people who pick strawberries, tomatoes, and other crops which are too delicate for mechanical harvesting. Migrant farm workers probably do other things than pick too, but let’s focus on that for a bit. Strawberries, Tomatoes, Peppers, Cucumbers, Melons, blueberries, raspberries, etc etc. Probably apples and citrus fruits too.

If we don’t have enough agricultural workers now, with so many unemployed citizens PLUS the millions who came here specifically to take crappy jobs that “real” Americans don’t want to do, I’m not sure the solution is more low wage – but legal – migrant labor from south of the border. Is this an endless feedback loop? People come here, as virtual (but legal) short term slave labor to pick tomatoes, and then drift away to the big city, where they overstay their visas and take illegal work? And we continue to replenish the farm workers with more short term slave labor?

I’m old enough to have seen several iterations of video exposes on the mistreatment of migrant farm labor, including the one that got Steven Colbert rebuked in congress. Does anyone believe that immigration reform will lead to adequate wages, housing, and healthcare for farm workers? The whole reason agribusiness needs to import desperate people from Mexico is BECAUSE those working conditions are unsatisfactory for our own unemployed.

We’re apparently not about to have another 1930’s dust bowl, resulting a migration of people from other states to California. And even if we did have years of drought, nobody is going to cheer a 21st century “life imitates art” remake of the “The Grapes of Wrath” as the solution to a farm worker shortage.

Immigration reform – at least this aspect of it: large number of exploited foreign workers – doesn’t appeal to me.

Full disclosure – the tomatoes on my patio are coming along fine. At least 4 varieties. I always struggle more with the peppers. Strawberries are abundant in the stores now – evidently from Florida. I don’t think migrant farm workers from Mexico picked them, but I could be wrong. Pick your own strawberries will be happening at local Maryland farms before the end of the month, and extend through July and august.

I see what you're saying, but here's another way to look at it. Yes, we could improve conditions and pay for farm labor until it was possible to hire more Americans to do that work. But what would the point be? First, that would raise prices to the point that US agriculture would be out-competed by foreign products (absent protective tariffs that have their own issues). Secondly, why do we want to be squandering American labor -- mostly literate and pretty much all fluent in English -- on work that can be done every bit as well by people who don't speak English or are illiterate? Wouldn't it be better to focus on how we can produce more good-quality jobs that will take advantage of the things Americans bring to the table that third-world competitors (immigrant or not) don't? Finally, we certainly aren't doing any favors to the immigrants by shutting down this "exploitative" jobs -- the reason they came here is that even with that "exploitation," it's still better than whatever local opportunities they had. So, why not bring in a lot of low-level "guest workers" to do the grunt work cheaply, and use some of the money that's made in the process to invest in things that will provide native-born Americans with higher quality jobs?

 

[as seen on tv]

Not a bad tactic though, if they could make it work. Simply convince the poor blacks to turn against the poor browns. Nixon invented the tactic, when he hatched his plan to turn the poor Southern whites against the poor Southern blacks.

However, as LBJ well understood, Nixon himself couldn't have pulled it off had the Democrats not managed to pass civil rights reforms in 1964.

yeah night - actually the story i saw was that inner city clergymen were leading the charge against immigration from the pulpit - just as they did in california against gay marriage. i'm not detecting an GOP shenanigans in trying to hijack the black message in this regard.

 

[as seen on tv]

I see what you're saying, but here's another way to look at it. Yes, we could improve conditions and pay for farm labor until it was possible to hire more Americans to do that work. But what would the point be? First, that would raise prices to the point that US agriculture would be out-competed by foreign products (absent protective tariffs that have their own issues). Secondly, why do we want to be squandering American labor -- mostly literate and pretty much all fluent in English -- on work that can be done every bit as well by people who don't speak English or are illiterate? Wouldn't it be better to focus on how we can produce more good-quality jobs that will take advantage of the things Americans bring to the table that third-world competitors (immigrant or not) don't? Finally, we certainly aren't doing any favors to the immigrants by shutting down this "exploitative" jobs -- the reason they came here is that even with that "exploitation," it's still better than whatever local opportunities they had. So, why not bring in a lot of low-level "guest workers" to do the grunt work cheaply, and use some of the money that's made in the process to invest in things that will provide native-born Americans with higher quality jobs?

ark - we pretty much agree. you're making the same case I made in my extended comments/responses in "political hotwire" earlier today.

i dont think there's any level of wages or benefits which can entice someone from detroit or cleveland to come pick tomatoes in california part time, then return home. the unfortunate (seasonal) truth is that most agricultural jobs are part time. and the more you try to make them appear like "normal" jobs, the more you drive american farmers out of business, and open the floodgates to truckloads of mexican produce, which has fewer touchpoints with FDA health inspectors.

going beyond farm workers, the immigration bill provides accelerated (and additional) H1B job visas for skilled workers - you know . . . engineers, nurses, that sort of thing. this seems like a good deal if you're an executive at Google, Boeing, or "United Hospital of Big City". But consider this.

The national high school drop out rate is 30%. In inner cities its typically 50%. And huge numbers of kids aren't going to college, irrespective of their high school diploma. At the same time, engineering schools, nursing schools, etc have vacancies, because not enough people are applying. The tuition is astronomical, and the academic rigor/record required for admission are somewhat daunting.

How are we ever going to create a future for our kids if "the best jobs" involve unaffordable training, and we create laws to welcome foreign workers whose educations were subsidized by their governments? That may be a short term win for the hospitals, Google, and Apple, but not for the nation.

The sad facts are that america can't count on being competitive if up to half our kids drop out of high school due to violence, inept teachers, and irrelevant classes, and those who DO graduate can't get the technical skills they need because tution costs are spiralling out of control.

I accompanied my boyfriend on college admissions trips for one of his kids a while back. These were STATE schools we visited - not private universities. They were bragging about new sports cathedrals, rock climing walls, wifi in the cafe outside the rock climbing walls, cafeterias in every dorm, on and on. No wonder tuition keeps going up.

Any ideas on how kids can get an education without incurring $100,000 of student loans for a rock climing wall or a stadium they don't care about?

 

[wobblies]

This kind of seasonal work should be done by our youth. Schools should take recess during peak, labor-intensive periods with assignments for the students to carry out during the recess. That could include reading assignments or refresher assignments for problems that students are having. Students would also learn about botany and biology by working with plants, and that should help them academically.

Our youth would learn job skills such as punctuality, in the process. It would also be a diversion from study and good physical activity. It would also be a lesson on the value of a dollar.

 

[as seen on tv]

This kind of seasonal work should be done by our youth. Schools should take recess during peak, labor-intensive periods with assignments for the students to carry out during the recess. That could include reading assignments or refresher assignments for problems that students are having. Students would also learn about botany and biology by working with plants, and that should help them academically.

Our youth would learn job skills such as punctuality, in the process. It would also be a diversion from study and good physical activity. It would also be a lesson on the value of a dollar.

i doubt if there enough "youth" living in the sparse, agricultural areas of california, texas, florida, etc to get the harvest done. and some of these harvests take place while classes are in session.

i've picked apples and strawberries in my youth (strawberries are back breaking) but i didn't have to travel 1,000 miles to it. it was right where I was growing up. and there were migrant laborers from jamaica and puerto rico working alongside us.

watch the movie "the cider house rules" if you want to get a sense for seasonal work

 

[NightSwimmer]

yeah night - actually the story i saw was that inner city clergymen were leading the charge against immigration from the pulpit - just as they did in california against gay marriage. i'm not detecting an GOP shenanigans in trying to hijack the black message in this regard.

Maybe Karl Rove reads this forum? Who knows?

 

[NightSwimmer]

This kind of seasonal work should be done by our youth. Schools should take recess during peak, labor-intensive periods with assignments for the students to carry out during the recess. That could include reading assignments or refresher assignments for problems that students are having. Students would also learn about botany and biology by working with plants, and that should help them academically.

Our youth would learn job skills such as punctuality, in the process. It would also be a diversion from study and good physical activity. It would also be a lesson on the value of a dollar.

Wow... Forcing public school kids to pick fruit and vegetables would only lead to an increase in home schooling. Aren't our kids in bad enough educational shape already?

 

[wobblies]

Wow... Forcing public school kids to pick fruit and vegetables would only lead to an increase in home schooling. Aren't our kids in bad enough educational shape already?

First, I'm not suggesting forced work; that would be silly. We would have to figure out a way for enough incentives for them to take the work. In addition, the work could also be performed on shortened school days; that alone would get some kids involved. Besides, a change of pace during the school isn't a bad idea.

The age of student eligibility would also be an issue. Keep in mind that we have millions of school-age children, so the work would not have to be that extensive.

The work is good, hard, honest labor; doing that kind of labor is a good thing for children. I'm not suggesting the return to child labor in general.

I also don't presume to know all of the problems and solutions for the idea; I just think it has great potential, and I don't really see a downside. Besides forced labor, what other problems do you see with the idea?

 

[Gramps]

Full disclosure – I don’t hate immigrants. Some of closest friends are (legal) immigrants, and the average immigrant works harder and is less likely to be a substance abuser than the native born slackers I run into.

That said, I’m increasingly troubled by the turn in the immigration debate towards “the shortage of farm workers”

I am somewhat astonished to hear that with 12 million plus illegal alien Mexicans in this country, we are experiencing a shortage in people who pick strawberries, tomatoes, and other crops which are too delicate for mechanical harvesting. Migrant farm workers probably do other things than pick too, but let’s focus on that for a bit. Strawberries, Tomatoes, Peppers, Cucumbers, Melons, blueberries, raspberries, etc etc. Probably apples and citrus fruits too.

If we don’t have enough agricultural workers now, with so many unemployed citizens PLUS the millions who came here specifically to take crappy jobs that “real” Americans don’t want to do, I’m not sure the solution is more low wage – but legal – migrant labor from south of the border. Is this an endless feedback loop? People come here, as virtual (but legal) short term slave labor to pick tomatoes, and then drift away to the big city, where they overstay their visas and take illegal work? And we continue to replenish the farm workers with more short term slave labor?

I’m old enough to have seen several iterations of video exposes on the mistreatment of migrant farm labor, including the one that got Steven Colbert rebuked in congress. Does anyone believe that immigration reform will lead to adequate wages, housing, and healthcare for farm workers? The whole reason agribusiness needs to import desperate people from Mexico is BECAUSE those working conditions are unsatisfactory for our own unemployed.

We’re apparently not about to have another 1930’s dust bowl, resulting a migration of people from other states to California. And even if we did have years of drought, nobody is going to cheer a 21st century “life imitates art” remake of the “The Grapes of Wrath” as the solution to a farm worker shortage.

Immigration reform – at least this aspect of it: large number of exploited foreign workers – doesn’t appeal to me.

Full disclosure – the tomatoes on my patio are coming along fine. At least 4 varieties. I always struggle more with the peppers. Strawberries are abundant in the stores now – evidently from Florida. I don’t think migrant farm workers from Mexico picked them, but I could be wrong. Pick your own strawberries will be happening at local Maryland farms before the end of the month, and extend through July and august.

I live in a Denver suburb and and more, or less, surrounded by immigrants (mostly from Mexico) and all of who work in the construction trade which was one industry that a few years back left some of them dangling on the false hope of a better life and they returned to Mexico. Those who stuck it out are back working again and leading respectable lifestyles. None, to the best of my knowledge are farmers peons although just north of town lots of immigrants are used in fields to harvest for the truck gardeners who thrive on veggies etc. to exist. The farmer angle is a misnomer. They come from varied walks of life and participate in many endeavors. And, as much as I hate to rain any anyone's parade, they (for the most part I think) are here to stay. Deal with it and let's move on. Gramps

 

[wobblies]

i doubt if there enough "youth" living in the sparse, agricultural areas of california, texas, florida, etc to get the harvest done. and some of these harvests take place while classes are in session.

i've picked apples and strawberries in my youth (strawberries are back breaking) but i didn't have to travel 1,000 miles to it. it was right where I was growing up. and there were migrant laborers from jamaica and puerto rico working alongside us.

watch the movie "the cider house rules" if you want to get a sense for seasonal work

I picked some oranges when I was about 9, but only because my step-father was a foreman. You make a good point about areas without a large surrounding population. I don't think that would be a problem here in California but know about other places.

I am suggesting that the seasonal work be coordinated with the school districts. I don't know how much time would be involved either. I do think that academic credit could be provided in science or PE if students get good exercise and some education about the plants, soil, and atmosphere.

Many of the jobs traditional done by our youth have been taken over by illegal immigrants. This is especially true in the service sector. That reality is robbing our youth of an entry into the work force and an opportunity to learn job skills. supporters of undocumented workers are oblivious to or condone it. This is just one area where our youth could regain some of that experience.

God Speed,
David