Circumcision II

[Queen Titania]

In 1964 90% of American baby boys were circumcised within the 1st two days after birth - since this has never happened in any culture before, we have yet to realize its full effect on those now 50 year old men and their families and on the implications to any greater influences those men may have had.

The numbers have dwindled since and seem somehow to be connected to a post War American mentality of 'toughen them up' -

But, though I had realised it had become a 'keeping up with the Jones' money spinner for US Drs, I neither realised the extent of it, nor the emotional and irrevocable damage of it, other than the excruciating pain and dangers of death and total lose of the total penis not just the large parts that are meant to be lost in such mutilations and so on -

My question is - How could you be so manipulated as to go against all maternal and paternal instincts to protect your offspring - especially when they are so so tiny? I am not judging just asking?

http://intactamerica.org/

Mothers against

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

Here are two critiques from a Research Fellow from Oxford University -

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.u...umcision-bad-science-bad-ethics-bad-medicine/


http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.u...mcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/

If Americans did not have such a profound affect on the World I would simply say that this was terribly terribly sad but not really my business - but you do affect the World - Circumcision damages the emotional balance -

 

[Queen Titania]

Marilyn Milos didn't know much about circumcision when she consented to have her three sons circumcised. She trusted her doctor who told her it did not hurt and "only took a moment." Several years later she watched a circumcision in nursing school. "We students filed into the newborn nursery to find a baby strapped spread-eagle to a plastic board on a counter top across the room." Then the doctor arrived. "The silence was soon broken by a piercing scream, the baby's reaction to having his foreskin pinched and crushed as the doctor attached the clamp to his penis. The shriek intensified when the doctor inserted an instrument between the foreskin and the glans (head of the penis), tearing the two [normally attached] structures apart. The baby started shaking his head back and forth, the only part of his body free to move, as the doctor used another clamp to crush the foreskin lengthwise. . . . The baby began to gasp and choke, breathless from his shrill continuous screams. . . . During the next stage of the surgery, the doctor crushed the foreskin against the circumcision instrument and then, finally, amputated it. The baby was limp, exhausted, spent."

Now she deeply regrets her sons' circumcisions and works tirelessly to educate others.


http://www.circumcision.org/harmswomen.htm

I know most of you don't want to look at this - I wish I hadn't - It is so heartbreaking. I have decided to leave PJ for a while simply because I have found this and the reaction and the none reaction to it so upsetting - America has been 'neutered' -

 

[SW48]

In 1964 90% of American baby boys were circumcised within the 1st two days after birth - since this has never happened in any culture before, we have yet to realize its full effect on those now 50 year old men and their families and on the implications to any greater influences those men may have had.

The numbers have dwindled since and seem somehow to be connected to a post War American mentality of 'toughen them up' -

But, though I had realised it had become a 'keeping up with the Jones' money spinner for US Drs, I neither realised the extent of it, nor the emotional and irrevocable damage of it, other than the excruciating pain and dangers of death and total lose of the total penis not just the large parts that are meant to be lost in such mutilations and so on -

My question is - How could you be so manipulated as to go against all maternal and paternal instincts to protect your offspring - especially when they are so so tiny? I am not judging just asking?

http://intactamerica.org/

Mothers against

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

Here are two critiques from a Research Fellow from Oxford University -

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.u...umcision-bad-science-bad-ethics-bad-medicine/


http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.u...mcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/

If Americans did not have such a profound affect on the World I would simply say that this was terribly terribly sad but not really my business - but you do affect the World - Circumcision damages the emotional balance -

I'd say its better to go through as a newborn than a teenager.

Just my opinion.

 

[Dawg]

Marilyn Milos didn't know much about circumcision when she consented to have her three sons circumcised. She trusted her doctor who told her it did not hurt and "only took a moment." Several years later she watched a circumcision in nursing school. "We students filed into the newborn nursery to find a baby strapped spread-eagle to a plastic board on a counter top across the room." Then the doctor arrived. "The silence was soon broken by a piercing scream, the baby's reaction to having his foreskin pinched and crushed as the doctor attached the clamp to his penis. The shriek intensified when the doctor inserted an instrument between the foreskin and the glans (head of the penis), tearing the two [normally attached] structures apart. The baby started shaking his head back and forth, the only part of his body free to move, as the doctor used another clamp to crush the foreskin lengthwise. . . . The baby began to gasp and choke, breathless from his shrill continuous screams. . . . During the next stage of the surgery, the doctor crushed the foreskin against the circumcision instrument and then, finally, amputated it. The baby was limp, exhausted, spent."

Now she deeply regrets her sons' circumcisions and works tirelessly to educate others.


http://www.circumcision.org/harmswomen.htm

I know most of you don't want to look at this - I wish I hadn't - It is so heartbreaking. I have decided to leave PJ for a while simply because I have found this and the reaction and the none reaction to it so upsetting - America has been 'neutered' -

I had friends that were not circumcised and if they didn't make sure to keep that area clean they endured some really bad infections......or some such problems. I was circumcised and remember nothing of it and my baby daddy nephew is fixing to have his 2 yr ol' son circumcised at the cost of $2000...........the reason it wasn't done at birth......Medicaid didn't pay for it and he wasn't spending the $500.......yeah, I called him the "n" word to wit he is.by the way, this is his second baby mama's son.

 

[SW48]

My dad had it as a teenager instead of newborn. Very traumatic but he was glad he did.

 

[Queen Titania]

I'd say its better to go through as a newborn than a teenager.

Just my opinion.

Boys foreskin can be rolled back from the glans ( nob ) between the ages of seven and nineteen, baby boys don't yet have a foreskin so it can't be, theirs is still adhered to the rest of the penis. One third to one half of the skin of the penis is ripped off, like pulling off a fingernail only one thousand times more painful - like skinning a rabbit.

The foreskin of a baby protects the penis against infections and dirt - pooh and pee -it does not seperate until the baby is potty trained and or later, but even then, it self cleans and should on no account ever be pulled back until the child can do it easily for its self.

Teenage boys can be anesthetized , new born babies can't be and no local anesthetic helps with the pain at all. Babies are rarely circumcised by fully trained Drs but by trainees or nurses and of course the unqualified. Many babies die - they go into shock - turn blue, stop breathing, choke on their vomit, bleed to death - some lose more than the foreskin but the glans ( nob) too is sometimes sliced off (by mistake), the urinary tract damaged, the penis sometimes turns black and has to be amputated - they are usually, when this happens, surgically transformed into little girls - often to commit suicide later in life.

Teenage boys are able to consent babies are not - baby boys have no rights - The most common form of female circumcision is the same procedure, removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only and most women from the regions it is done also say the are pleased and do the same to their girl children.

 

[Queen Titania]

I had friends that were not circumcised and if they didn't make sure to keep that area clean they endured some really bad infections......or some such problems. I was circumcised and remember nothing of it and my baby daddy nephew is fixing to have his 2 yr ol' son circumcised at the cost of $2000...........the reason it wasn't done at birth......Medicaid didn't pay for it and he wasn't spending the $500.......yeah, I called him the "n" word to wit he is.by the way, this is his second baby mama's son.

Dawg if the foreskin is forced back before it is ready. little boys can have the most terrible problems but when it is left to its self, to roll back from the rest of the penis in its own time ( between seven and nineteen yrs old) there are rarely any problems. Urinary tract infections are also very rare and antibiotics sort them out anyway, removal of the foreskin makes no difference to that, what so ever.


A little two year old cannot give informed consent - You and SW are happy with your lot as are many circumcised men and women but many circumcised men and women are not - this little mite might not be - should, even his parents, really have the right to decide on the surgical removal of a functional part of his body before he can choose for themselves?

Is it not fundamental to our beliefs, to our freedoms, that we should be able to decide for ourselves what happens to our own bodies - our sexuality? Circumcision became fashionable to stop boys mastibating, in Britain they found it didn't work and circumcision is quite rare now but that was the thinking behind it - and now too in the US, as you say, money, money, money.

 

[ya-ta-hey]

In 1964 90% of American baby boys were circumcised within the 1st two days after birth - since this has never happened in any culture before, we have yet to realize its full effect on those now 50 year old men and their families and on the implications to any greater influences those men may have had.

The numbers have dwindled since and seem somehow to be connected to a post War American mentality of 'toughen them up' -

But, though I had realised it had become a 'keeping up with the Jones' money spinner for US Drs, I neither realised the extent of it, nor the emotional and irrevocable damage of it, other than the excruciating pain and dangers of death and total lose of the total penis not just the large parts that are meant to be lost in such mutilations and so on -

My question is - How could you be so manipulated as to go against all maternal and paternal instincts to protect your offspring - especially when they are so so tiny? I am not judging just asking?

http://intactamerica.org/

Mothers against

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

Here are two critiques from a Research Fellow from Oxford University -

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.u...umcision-bad-science-bad-ethics-bad-medicine/


http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.u...mcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/

If Americans did not have such a profound affect on the World I would simply say that this was terribly terribly sad but not really my business - but you do affect the World - Circumcision damages the emotional balance -

Ms. Queen,

What's the big deal? Not like the kid even remembers it happening. And not being one that goes for those kinda things, I not the one to prefer one over the other. But seriously, it seems to me, as bad as most young men are at hygiene, wouldn't you women prefer the shorn version, at the very least to aviod the presence of, how can I put this gently, dick-jam?

 

[Queen Titania]

Ms. Queen,

What's the big deal? Not like the kid even remembers it happening. And not being one that goes for those kinda things, I not the one to prefer one over the other. But seriously, it seems to me, as bad as most young men are at hygiene, wouldn't you women prefer the shorn version, at the very least to aviod the presence of, how can I put this gently, dick-jam?

The opposite is true.

The Foreskin's 'Gliding Action'
- the hallmark mechanical feature of the normal natural, intact penis. This non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth , comfortable, pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Without this gliding action, the corona of the circumcised penis can function as a oneway valve, scraping vaginal lubricants out into the drying air and making artificial lubricants essential for pleasurable intercourse.
[P. M. Fleiss, MD, MPH, "The Case Against Circumcision," Mothering: The Magazine of Natural Family Living (Winter 1997): 36-45.]

http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.html

If a foreskin is too tight, it can be loosened by many means - surgery is a very very very rare necessity.

As for whether or not a tiny baby remembers - well of course most don't but the trauma stays.

Emotional Bonding
Circumcision performed during infancy disrupts the bonding process between child and mother. There are indications that the innate sense of trust in intimate human contact is inhibited or lost. It can also have significant adverse effects on neurological development. Additionally, an infant's self-confidence and hardiness is diminished by forcing the newborn victim into a defensive psychological state of "learned helplessness" or "acquired passivity" to cope with the excruciating pain which he can neither fight nor flee. The trauma of this early pain lowers a circumcised boy's pain threshold below that of intact boys and girls. [1. R. Goldman, Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma (Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997), 139-175. 2. A. Taddio et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Responses during Vaccination in Boys," Lancet 345 (1995): 291-292.]

 

[ya-ta-hey]

The opposite is true.

The Foreskin's 'Gliding Action'
- the hallmark mechanical feature of the normal natural, intact penis. This non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth , comfortable, pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Without this gliding action, the corona of the circumcised penis can function as a oneway valve, scraping vaginal lubricants out into the drying air and making artificial lubricants essential for pleasurable intercourse.
[P. M. Fleiss, MD, MPH, "The Case Against Circumcision," Mothering: The Magazine of Natural Family Living (Winter 1997): 36-45.]

http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_lost.html

If a foreskin is too tight, it can be loosened by many means - surgery is a very very very rare necessity.

As for whether or not a tiny baby remembers - well of course most don't but the trauma stays.

Emotional Bonding
Circumcision performed during infancy disrupts the bonding process between child and mother. There are indications that the innate sense of trust in intimate human contact is inhibited or lost. It can also have significant adverse effects on neurological development. Additionally, an infant's self-confidence and hardiness is diminished by forcing the newborn victim into a defensive psychological state of "learned helplessness" or "acquired passivity" to cope with the excruciating pain which he can neither fight nor flee. The trauma of this early pain lowers a circumcised boy's pain threshold below that of intact boys and girls. [1. R. Goldman, Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma (Boston: Vanguard Publications, 1997), 139-175. 2. A. Taddio et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Responses during Vaccination in Boys," Lancet 345 (1995): 291-292.]

Ms Queen,

But what about, the ahem, aforementioned "jam"

 

[Queen Titania]

Ms Queen,

But what about, the ahem, aforementioned "jam"

You mean the cheese? Lol - if it is fresh it will save 'the pocket' from having to buy lubricants - if it is old cheese - soap and water is the best remedy ;-)

 

[Queen Titania]

My dad had it as a teenager instead of newborn. Very traumatic but he was glad he did.

It was his choice though SW - as parents our job is to protect our young - the pain inflicted on babies and tiny ones, breaks their ability to trust us.

OK many are ok but more is known now that when you were a babe - everyone who is thinking of circumcising their babe should 1st, decide whether they morally have that right and 2nd research research and research - for it is irreversible.

 

[ya-ta-hey]

You mean the cheese? Lol - if it is fresh it will save 'the pocket' from having to buy lubricants - if it is old cheese - soap and water is the best remedy ;-)

Ms. Queen,

And yes, young men in their teens and 20's are so good at that.

To each thier own, and again, not being into those things, I'm not one to pass judgment, but I have seen those hooded ones in the gym locker rooms, and to tell the truth, they look like naked mole rats to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_mole_rat

 

[Corruptbuddha]

In 1964 90% of American baby boys were circumcised within the 1st two days after birth - since this has never happened in any culture before, we have yet to realize its full effect on those now 50 year old men and their families and on the implications to any greater influences those men may have had.

The numbers have dwindled since and seem somehow to be connected to a post War American mentality of 'toughen them up' -

But, though I had realised it had become a 'keeping up with the Jones' money spinner for US Drs, I neither realised the extent of it, nor the emotional and irrevocable damage of it, other than the excruciating pain and dangers of death and total lose of the total penis not just the large parts that are meant to be lost in such mutilations and so on -

My question is - How could you be so manipulated as to go against all maternal and paternal instincts to protect your offspring - especially when they are so so tiny? I am not judging just asking?

http://intactamerica.org/

Mothers against

http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/

Here are two critiques from a Research Fellow from Oxford University -

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.u...umcision-bad-science-bad-ethics-bad-medicine/


http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.u...mcision-time-to-confront-the-double-standard/

If Americans did not have such a profound affect on the World I would simply say that this was terribly terribly sad but not really my business - but you do affect the World - Circumcision damages the emotional balance -

If a woman has the right to choose to abort her baby, she has the right to choose if his foreskin gets removed.

And, honestly, it's none of my business.

 

[Queen Titania]

Ms. Queen,

And yes, young men in their teens and 20's are so good at that.

To each thier own, and again, not being into those things, I'm not one to pass judgment, but I have seen those hooded ones in the gym locker rooms, and to tell the truth, they look like naked mole rats to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_mole_rat

Well if young men in their teens or their twenties can't even wash for their 'fancy' - their fancy should teach them how

A lot, a lot, a lot of men from all faiths and no faiths regret that they were circumcised - many mothers are also saying how much they regret allowing it - women of all faiths and no faith are refusing to allow their babies to be circumcised - so - since it is not reversible, since we are talking about a unique and functional part of the body - it is an important functional part of the penis not just a flap of skin - the question has to be - Do Adults have the right to make any decision which will affect their childs' sexuality when they are a man - as well as taking a chance with their health on a procedure which is not necessary - and could cost them their lives or good health?

Neither the laws of informed consent nor any human rights exist for little boys -

 

[Dawg]

Dawg if the foreskin is forced back before it is ready. little boys can have the most terrible problems but when it is left to its self, to roll back from the rest of the penis in its own time ( between seven and nineteen yrs old) there are rarely any problems. Urinary tract infections are also very rare and antibiotics sort them out anyway, removal of the foreskin makes no difference to that, what so ever.


A little two year old cannot give informed consent - You and SW are happy with your lot as are many circumcised men and women but many circumcised men and women are not - this little mite might not be - should, even his parents, really have the right to decide on the surgical removal of a functional part of his body before he can choose for themselves?

Is it not fundamental to our beliefs, to our freedoms, that we should be able to decide for ourselves what happens to our own bodies - our sexuality? Circumcision became fashionable to stop boys mastibating, in Britain they found it didn't work and circumcision is quite rare now but that was the thinking behind it - and now too in the US, as you say, money, money, money.

well, clipping doesn't stop mastibating.........that I can say with experience.

 

[Queen Titania]

If a woman has the right to choose to abort her baby, she has the right to choose if his foreskin gets removed.

And, honestly, it's none of my business.

Is she allowed to do exactly the same procedure on her little girl child?

Type 1a of FGC is exactly the same process as MGC, so if not, why not?

 

[Queen Titania]

well, clipping doesn't stop mastibating.........that I can say with experience.

I know, it makes it worse ;-) That is why they have more or less stopped doing it here - but that was the only reason for it - health wise there is no benefit as the AAD have now been forced to admit.

I think it will be banned in Europe soon - or at least the beginnings of such a Law is on its way - Human Rights and all that -

 

[Dawg]

I know, it makes it worse ;-) That is why they have more or less stopped doing it here - but that was the only reason for it - health wise there is no benefit as the AAD have now been forced to admit.

I think it will be banned in Europe soon - or at least the beginnings of such a Law is on its way - Human Rights and all that -

served with some that were not circumcised and learned dirt and dick pouch didn't go well together...........some we thought they were going to cut everything off..........sand, omg, bad, real bad.

 

[Queen Titania]

served with some that were not circumcised and learned dirt and dick pouch didn't go well together...........some we thought they were going to cut everything off..........sand, omg, bad, real bad.

Yes sand ouch! I was not fond of fu'cking in the sea either ;-)