Live streams on Greek referendum

[Queen Titania]

I think the EU have forced them to close all of their Banks --- no not just 'cos it is Sunday today but before today.



http://rt.com/news/271735-greece-bailout-referendum-euro/

http://www.theguardian.com/business...ferendum-gets-under-way--eu-euro-bailout-live


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...orism-as-greeks-go-to-the-polls-10366701.html

 

[georgephillip]

I think the EU have forced them to close all of their Banks --- no not just 'cos it is Sunday today but before today.



http://rt.com/news/271735-greece-bailout-referendum-euro/

http://www.theguardian.com/business...ferendum-gets-under-way--eu-euro-bailout-live


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...orism-as-greeks-go-to-the-polls-10366701.html

"
"Official projection: no side to win with 61%
Greece’s interior ministry has released an official projection, showing that the no side is set to win by 61%.

"That is a landslide result for the government, which had urged people to reject the bailout proposals made by lenders."

Big Changes Coming...?

http://www.theguardian.com/business...o-bailout-live#block-559970d9e4b00bdd27707dd6

 

[Queen Titania]

"
"Official projection: no side to win with 61%
Greece’s interior ministry has released an official projection, showing that the no side is set to win by 61%.

"That is a landslide result for the government, which had urged people to reject the bailout proposals made by lenders."

Big Changes Coming...?

http://www.theguardian.com/business...o-bailout-live#block-559970d9e4b00bdd27707dd6

The people loose either way Poor buggers never wanted to join the EU in the first place.

 

[georgephillip]

The people loose either way Poor buggers never wanted to join the EU in the first place.

I'm listening to my local Pacifica radio station, and it is claiming a 61% to 39% "win" for those rejecting the Troika's attempt to smash Syriza. I suppose only time will tell who wins and loses...

 

[Queen Titania]

I'm listening to my local Pacifica radio station, and it is claiming a 61% to 39% "win" for those rejecting the Troika's attempt to smash Syriza. I suppose only time will tell who wins and loses...

Either way the people will suffer ---

 

[fairsheet]

This is very interesting. I think the Greeks are dreaming if they think this is going to "force" potential lenders to come back with something more to the Greeks' liking. But, maybe I'm wrong...again!

In any case, I think it's pretty obvious that the Greeks have to start doing things differently from the way they've been doing them. I've got no idea what the right thing would be?....nor do the Greeks it appears - at least at this point.

 

[Queen Titania]

This is very interesting. I think the Greeks are dreaming if they think this is going to "force" potential lenders to come back with something more to the Greeks' liking. But, maybe I'm wrong...again!

In any case, I think it's pretty obvious that the Greeks have to start doing things differently from the way they've been doing them. I've got no idea what the right thing would be?....nor do the Greeks it appears - at least at this point.

Nope -- nor me.

Do you know all their money/credit went into Arms bought from the Germans ( they were the 4th largest buyer of Arms, after they joined the Euro).... and the iffy deal was made poss by Goldman Sachs cooking of the Greek books? ---

In the beginning Greece was supposed to have had a referendum, as to whether or not to go into the Union, the Polls said they would vote NO so the Politicos cancelled the referendum and just took it in.

Robert Fisk's article today ---

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ope-wants-revenge-on-the-greeks-10367556.html

 

[georgephillip]

Nope -- nor me.

Do you know all their money/credit went into Arms bought from the Germans ( they were the 4th largest buyer of Arms, after they joined the Euro).... and the iffy deal was made poss by Goldman Sachs cooking of the Greek books? ---

In the beginning Greece was supposed to have had a referendum, as to whether or not to go into the Union, the Polls said they would vote NO so the Politicos cancelled the referendum and just took it in.

Robert Fisk's article today ---

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ope-wants-revenge-on-the-greeks-10367556.html

"It all sounds very Greek. I’m not sure if this is an exercise in democracy (Greek style) or if democracy is the 'winner' in the referendum.

"But the Greeks clearly don’t want to leave Europe.

"Which raises a problem; because the EU and the great bankers of the West have come to look, over these past few weeks, not like justified and generous gentlemen and gentlewomen who gave their generosity to Greece, but rather as vicious money-lenders who want their revenge on the poor old Greeks.

"The real question to be asked, is surely whether any of us in future will want to be called 'Europeans'”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ope-wants-revenge-on-the-greeks-10367556.html

 

[Queen Titania]

"It all sounds very Greek. I’m not sure if this is an exercise in democracy (Greek style) or if democracy is the 'winner' in the referendum.

"But the Greeks clearly don’t want to leave Europe.

"Which raises a problem; because the EU and the great bankers of the West have come to look, over these past few weeks, not like justified and generous gentlemen and gentlewomen who gave their generosity to Greece, but rather as vicious money-lenders who want their revenge on the poor old Greeks.

"The real question to be asked, is surely whether any of us in future will want to be called 'Europeans'”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ope-wants-revenge-on-the-greeks-10367556.html

Define democracy ---

For roughly half of yours and my life time Greece was a dictatorship.

As it emerged from that is was like a Third World country. From what I gather from those who know it well, much of it is still very poor and 'traditional' so them saying it is becoming a Third World country seems a bit odd to me --- for all intents and purposes it still was out side their cities and tourist resorts as far as I can make out.

 

[Queen Titania]

"It all sounds very Greek. I’m not sure if this is an exercise in democracy (Greek style) or if democracy is the 'winner' in the referendum.

"But the Greeks clearly don’t want to leave Europe.

"Which raises a problem; because the EU and the great bankers of the West have come to look, over these past few weeks, not like justified and generous gentlemen and gentlewomen who gave their generosity to Greece, but rather as vicious money-lenders who want their revenge on the poor old Greeks.

"The real question to be asked, is surely whether any of us in future will want to be called 'Europeans'”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ope-wants-revenge-on-the-greeks-10367556.html

Actually this article isn't very good, I had only glanced at it before but some of the comments are worth reading.

 

[fairsheet]

Nope -- nor me.

Do you know all their money/credit went into Arms bought from the Germans ( they were the 4th largest buyer of Arms, after they joined the Euro).... and the iffy deal was made poss by Goldman Sachs cooking of the Greek books? ---

In the beginning Greece was supposed to have had a referendum, as to whether or not to go into the Union, the Polls said they would vote NO so the Politicos cancelled the referendum and just took it in.

Robert Fisk's article today ---

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ope-wants-revenge-on-the-greeks-10367556.html

This sounds just like all those deals the West made with all those African tinpots during the Cold War. In those situations, we finally came to learn that the innocent citizens of those countries weren't the ones who agreed to, or benefitted from those loans, so it wasn't right to hold them to paying them back.

Perhaps the Germans are thinking the Greeks were different? Maybe because they're white?....and putatively"democratic"?

 

[Queen Titania]

This sounds just like all those deals the West made with all those African tinpots during the Cold War. In those situations, we finally came to learn that the innocent citizens of those countries weren't the ones who agreed to, or benefitted from those loans, so it wasn't right to hold them to paying them back.

Perhaps the Germans are thinking the Greeks were different? Maybe because they're white?....and putatively"democratic"?

Ignoring your last quip --- yes <shrug> yes ---

 

[fairsheet]

Ignoring your last quip --- yes <shrug> yes ---

My last wasn't intended as a quip/snark. My impression of the Germans is that they consider themselves most progressive. For instance, they were one of the leaders in terms of forgiving all that African debt. Yet, they obviously consider Greece differently. Why is that?

Some suggest that it goes back to post-WWII and that the Greeks were insistent upon the Germans making reperations.

 

[Queen Titania]

My last wasn't intended as a quip/snark. My impression of the Germans is that they consider themselves most progressive. For instance, they were one of the leaders in terms of forgiving all that African debt. Yet, they obviously consider Greece differently. Why is that?

Some suggest that it goes back to post-WWII and that the Greeks were insistent upon the Germans making reperations.

Sorry I didn't understand.

No, we are not talking revenge, Germans don't do revenge, but some sort of very underhand banker type dealings in which the Greeks are no longer playing ball. Goldman Sachs are in this up to their necks --- it is all very Mafioso ---

Perhaps the Germans think that if they keep shoring Greece up the whole problem will go away, the dam will not break --- or it is more sinister? I don't know fair. I'll try to get some more insight from my daughters Greek friend when he gets back from Athens, if he ever comes back, he has re-fallen in love with the place.

But revenge? No

I don't know what progressive means --- The Germans are a people who through being Industrious by nature and good and honest - have, because of the way they are been squashed so many times, they are now trying to be without displeasing the 'Gods' ,in that they might have sold their souls to the Devil/Mafia I don't know - self preservation?

 

[marvin martian]

Watching the EU begin it's implosion is sad, but naturally unsurprising. The "leaders" of these socialist utopias have the minds of children and now they are being allowed to see the consequences of their actions. It's good. Next up...Spain, Italy or Portugal?

 

[fairsheet]

Watching the EU begin it's implosion is sad, but naturally unsurprising. The "leaders" of these socialist utopias have the minds of children and now they are being allowed to see the consequences of their actions. It's good. Next up...Spain, Italy or Portugal?

Let's just say that I'd not lend the Greeks a dime from my pittance. It would have nothing to do with my personal feelings around Greeks, or Germans, or whomever. It's just be about the fact that Greece represents a really bad risk right about now.

That's why I suggest that I think the Greeks are being a little naïve. Perhaps that's part of what got them into the position they're in today?...they don't understand the very rudiments of capitalism and finance? The only way "real money" is going to lend them a dime, is if someone else guarantees the loan.

 

[marvin martian]

Let's just say that I'd not lend the Greeks a dime from my pittance. It would have nothing to do with my personal feelings around Greeks, or Germans, or whomever. It's just be about the fact that Greece represents a really bad risk right about now.

That's why I suggest that I think the Greeks are being a little naïve. Perhaps that's part of what got them into the position they're in today?...they don't understand the very rudiments of capitalism and finance? The only way "real money" is going to lend them a dime, is if someone else guarantees the loan.

Really? You mean they aren't going to get money just because they're good people? That's going to shatter some progressive illusions, for sure...

 

[georgephillip]

Define democracy ---

For roughly half of yours and my life time Greece was a dictatorship.

As it emerged from that is was like a Third World country. From what I gather from those who know it well, much of it is still very poor and 'traditional' so them saying it is becoming a Third World country seems a bit odd to me --- for all intents and purposes it still was out side their cities and tourist resorts as far as I can make out.

Greek democracy took a huge hit after WWII when those who fought the Nazi occupation were denied a role in creating a new government. Apparently, those wounds from the Greek Civil War still bleed into today's anti-austerity politics. A former member of the Reagan Administration thinks today's situation in Greece has even deeper historical roots:

"Like Marathon, Thermopylae, Plataea and Mycale roughly 2,500 years ago, Western freedom again depends on Greece. Today Washington and its empire of European vassal states are playing the part of the Persian Empire, and belatedly the Greeks have formed a government, Syriza, that refuses to submit to the Washington Empire."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/03/greece-again-can-save-the-west/

 

[Queen Titania]

Greek democracy took a huge hit after WWII when those who fought the Nazi occupation were denied a role in creating a new government. Apparently, those wounds from the Greek Civil War still bleed into today's anti-austerity politics. A former member of the Reagan Administration thinks today's situation in Greece has even deeper historical roots:

"Like Marathon, Thermopylae, Plataea and Mycale roughly 2,500 years ago, Western freedom again depends on Greece. Today Washington and its empire of European vassal states are playing the part of the Persian Empire, and belatedly the Greeks have formed a government, Syriza, that refuses to submit to the Washington Empire."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/03/greece-again-can-save-the-west/

Of course it does --- it does in all old countries.

 

[Queen Titania]

Watching the EU begin it's implosion is sad, but naturally unsurprising. The "leaders" of these socialist utopias have the minds of children and now they are being allowed to see the consequences of their actions. It's good. Next up...Spain, Italy or Portugal?

Why is it sad to see a dictatorship crumble? How very un - American of you to think so.