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My problem with Jews, Muslims, and Christians

Arkady

President
I find faith in the supernatural to be vaguely silly, but it doesn't lower someone in my eyes too much. Humans are inherently irrational, and although I believe we have a moral obligation to try to keep that irrationality in check, I accept that we'll often fail and fall into superstitions, magical thinking, phobias, and religious faith. So, if someone believes the stories of the Bible are true, absent any evidence, I see it as a weakness, but not a particularly damning one. Chances are such a person was aggressively indoctrinated into that faith by the people he most trusted at an age when he was too young to reason, and it's a simple fact of human nature that only a small minority of people who were brainwashed that way will recover as they get old enough to think for themselves.

What makes it harder not to look down on Jews, Muslims, and Christians, though, is their reaction to that faith. Even if one believed, against all reason, that the stories told in the Old Testament were true, the clear moral imperative would be to oppose Yahweh, not to worship him. As Robert Ingersoll writes (echoing a similar sentiment from Mark Twain), "The portrait is substantially that of a man -- if one can imagine a man charged and overcharged with evil impulses far beyond the human limit; a personage whom no one, perhaps, would desire to associate with now that Nero and Caligula are dead. In the Old Testament, his acts expose his vindictive, unjust, ungenerous, pitiless and vengeful nature constantly. It is perhaps the most damning biography that exists in print anywhere." What kind of a person could worship such a monster?

If I met someone who thought Bram Stoke'rs story of Dracula was real -- including all the supernatural material -- I'd chuckle a bit at such naivite. But if I met someone who thought Bran Stoker's story of Dracula was real, and responded to that by dedicating his life to the worship of Dracula, I wouldn't want to turn my back on him, much less leave him with my children. Imagining the existence of a super-powered monster like Yahweh is goofy, but imaging that and then worshiping the monstrosity is atrocious.

For those who have read the Old Testament, it should be clear enough what we are talking about when we refer to it as a damning biography. But for those who haven't gotten around to reading it, yet, here's just a short summary of Yahweh's behavior. Right near the start, he damns every person who will ever live to torment as punishment for our most distant ancestors eating some fruit he told them not to eat. Later, he drowns nearly every man, woman, child, and animal on the planet, down to the youngest of newborn infants, because he's not pleased with how his creation is turning out. In similar incidents, later, he murders the entire populations of two cities... then, as an added murderous flourish, kills the wife of one of his own patriarchs for the "crime" of having looked over her shoulder. In Egypt, he sends his spirit on a door-to-door killing spree, slaughtering children in order to make some sort of point to a Pharaoh who was only being stubborn because Yahweh had used his magic powers to harden the man's heart. Even his own favorites aren't safe from his cruel and capricious behavior. Moses, who led Yahweh's pet tribe through the hardships of the desert for 40 long years, trying to reach the Promised Land, is not permitted to reach the Promised Land because Yahweh is miffed at him for some obscure moment of supposedly not having put enough trust in Him. Then there's a genocidal campaign against the prior inhabitants of the Promised Land, ordered and supported by Yahweh. And all along the story Yahweh is ordering people to be killed in jealous rages, while setting up rules that require death for misdeeds as minor as being a headstrong kid who talks back to his parents.

Again, I ask, how could anyone worship such a being? If the story of the Old Testament was true, all moral people would be obligated to defy and resist the tyranny of that evil deity to the best of our abilities. Worshiping him would be like worshiping Hitler or Stalin --at best, an act of cowardice in the face of terrifying power. It is possible to pity such people, just as we pity many who "Heil Hitlered" their way through the Nazi era because they lacked the moral fortitude to stand up to the Nazis, and found it safer to align themselves with such a powerful evil. But it's impossible to respect them.

To be clear, I'm sure there are other religions, too, that are filled with similar horrors. But the only religions I know well are those of the Old Testament, so I won't try to guess whether Hinduists, Taoists, Zoroastrians, etc., are revealing themselves to be contemptible through their faith. I have some familiarity with Buddhism. I reject many of its basic moral premises (like the striving to eliminate desire), and its superstitions, but from what I've seen being a Buddhist does not involve behavior as reprehensible as worshiping a mass murderer like Yahweh.

Also to be clear, my contempt for the "People of the Book" doesn't extend to those who reject all the evil parts -- taking them as symbolic stories to convey some specific point, rather than an actual recounting of the behavior of their deity. I view such people as simply trying to cling to a bit of the brainwashing of their youths, for sentimental reasons, while growing beyond it morally. They're a bit like someone who clings to the Confederate Flag, because he was indoctrinated into that kind of "Southern Pride" when he was a child and doesn't want to push it away entirely, but who rejects the racism that the Confederate Flag was originally tied up with. I wish such people could move beyond their ugly historical legacies entirely, but I realize that merely embracing some symbols with ugly historical ties, like the Confederate Flag or the Bible, doesn't necessarily mean the person has a dark soul. It's possible for a good person to compartmentalize the symbol from those negative aspects in his mind.
 
As one who cares not a whit what you think of Faith, I wll remind you that I have told you over and over,"The Bible was written by fallible man over many centuries, is contradictory,and has nothing to do with my faith!"

So there!:) If you abuse it,that is your problem. I choose to live by the Commandments, most of the time,as they make sense!
 
As one who cares not a whit what you think of Faith, I wll remind you that I have told you over and over,"The Bible was written by fallible man over many centuries, is contradictory,and has nothing to do with my faith!"

So there!:) If you abuse it,that is your problem. I choose to live by the Commandments, most of the time,as they make sense!

This goes to personal labeling. Many today simply refer to themselves as spiritual, but not religious. This removes the larger label of Christian, Muslim and Jew and replaces it with something different, whatever that may be. New Age...Masons...Unitarians...are all groups that reflect a less "religious" stance for one of "spirituality." Belief in a higher force is all that is required, not worship of a certain prophet.

Some of the Commandments make some sense to me, (no carvings or statues???)but the simplicity of it all can be boiled down the Golden Rule...This of course will occasionally be upsetting to someone, as some people like to be treated poorly.
 
As one who cares not a whit what you think of Faith, I wll remind you that I have told you over and over,"The Bible was written by fallible man over many centuries, is contradictory,and has nothing to do with my faith!"

So there!:) If you abuse it,that is your problem. I choose to live by the Commandments, most of the time,as they make sense!

Which commandments? The Bible has hundreds of them. Are you referring to the tablets Moses chiseled? If so, I'm surprised to hear you live by those. As I recall you were fond of the King James translation, so here the commandments are, as recounted in Exodus 34:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

23 Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.

24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the Lord thy God thrice in the year.

25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him

So, if you choose to live by those commandments, am I correct in understanding that during the the month of Abib you go seven days eating unleavened bread? If so, can you clarify for me when the month of Abib is? And did you sacrifice a lamb when your son was born? Do you scrupulously avoid any labor (e.g., gardening, household chores) on Saturdays (the Sabbath)? And do you observe the feast of weeks and in-gathering? If so, when are those and how do you observe them? Do you make sure that your menchildren appear before the God of Israel three times each year? Do you make the required blood and passover sacrifices? When you bring in a harvest (e.g., picking your garden's vegetables), do you bring the first of those to Church? Do you avoid mixing milk and meat products?

Pardon my skepticism, but I really doubt you make any real effort to follow most of those commandments that were on Moses' tablets. Am I right to doubt that?
 
Gee, Arkady. I'd guess you've been picking my brain for material.
Enjoyed a post I tend to agree with more than not.

The Scriptures are actually more about dying than living. They are a history book about times we really know very little about except what the Scriptures tell us.

Based on most everything I've read (and I have read the bible among other books regarding religions) we don't live for today but for tomorrow in a time that no one ever went to and came back to relate the facts. And, as you point out oodles and gobs of folks got their introduction to religion at the tender age of a few months and then were subjected to years of brainwashing so terrifying as to do as they are told and not live by example from their mentors.

The way I see it dying is a shitty way to go but there are no other options and I have given this some serious thought through the years to finally conclude I am my own god and the only god I really need to answer to is me and that might explain why, as we approach the final breath we have to deal with our history BECAUSE we are really the only one to really know precisely what occurred and whether re reacted in a responsible manner or a selfish mood.

Now, I figure at my age (87) I am probably as close to taking my leave from this old world as anyone on these boards and I am not frightened nor am I delighted. It is what it is and I have known since those early days of my life when I attended the "Jesus loves you" indoctrinations "the hairs on my head were counted" and that sooner, or later, I'd arrive on the threshold of death and have to deal with it. On an island after my buddies toted me to the medics and I thought I was dying I recall my thoughts quite clearly to this day; why, I'm but 18, this is one hellova place to die. I don't even know where the hell I am for sure. And then I recalled that my mother died only four years before and of how I had to deal with that and the next thing I knew it was three days later when I opened my eyes and some medic said, "Welcome back".

Anyway, I did enjoy your post simply because in so many ways it reflected my feelings on the topic.

Gramps
 
This goes to personal labeling. Many today simply refer to themselves as spiritual, but not religious. This removes the larger label of Christian, Muslim and Jew and replaces it with something different, whatever that may be. New Age...Masons...Unitarians...are all groups that reflect a less "religious" stance for one of "spirituality." Belief in a higher force is all that is required, not worship of a certain prophet.

Some of the Commandments make some sense to me, (no carvings or statues???)but the simplicity of it all can be boiled down the Golden Rule...This of course will occasionally be upsetting to someone, as some people like to be treated poorly.

As I pointed out in my response to Mary Anne, even talking about following the Biblical Commandments is tough, since there are hundreds of commandments. Even if we're trying to talk about the ten commandments on the stone tablets, it's tough, since there were two sets of stone tablets (the ones that Moses broke and the replacement set), and they consist of vastly different lists of commandments (see Exodus 20 and Exodus 34). And even if we zero in on the set of ten commandments that Moses broke, not the replacement set God provided, there are serious differences about what, exactly, they said. Ask a Protestant, Catholic, and a Jew to list the Ten Commandments and you'll get three distinctly different answers.

Besides, it's a really lousy moral guide. The Golden Rule is far better, as is the categorical imperative, or even just "be nice to people." The Ten Commandments typically referenced by Protestants don't even get around to any moral issues until item six!

Item one is a demand not to put any of the other gods ahead of Yahweh, item two is that weird rule against making images, item three is a taboo against using Yahweh's name, item four is a mandatory holiday, and item five says that if you want to have a long life you need to honor your parents. Nothing in the list, to that point, has even touched on an issue of morality. It's four items of religious custom, and one bit of longevity advice.

Item six, "thou shalt not kill" is, admittedly, at least an attempt at setting forth some moral guidance. But it's effectively worthless for that purpose, since it's not possible to follow it literally, and it provides no guidelines as to what it's supposed to mean. Every second of the day, we're killing fellow organisms by the millions, just using our immune system and digestive tract. Most of us also kill on purpose for food (or consume food that's been killed on purpose for us). Most also condone killing as part of war, and in self defense, and at least in the US the majority condone killing as punishment for some crimes. There's also the whole issue about whether killing fetuses (or sperm, for that matter) is the kind of killing that's forbidden. Just saying "thou shalt not kill" is utterly worthless.

The next item is, again, not really a moral code so much as a religious taboo. Don't commit adultery. Even if we could agree on what adultery is (Jesus thought it included looking at someone with lust in your heart, and a billion Catholics believe it includes divorce and remarriage), that's not an issue of morality, it's an issue of sexual control, akin to saying thou shall not bear your ankles to the gaze of men, or thou shall not engage in oral sex. From a moral perspective, adultery is only wrong if it is hurtful to someone, which is not always the case (there are plenty of happy swingers out there).

Next is "thou shalt not steal." It's again an attempt at a moral code, but it's only a little more useful than "thou shalt not kill," because it leaves wholly open the issue of what constitutes stealing. Is a person who disinherits his children "stealing" their legacy? Is someone who makes a mix tape for his girlfriend "stealing" the intellectual property? Is the government "stealing" your money when they demand taxes? Are eminent domain and compulsory easements forms of theft? Without any guidance about what stealing even is, this just defaults back to whatever the law is in the society you're in, and that could be moral or immoral. Think, for example, of being a slave who runs away from your master -- something that would be treated as theft in some societies.

Commandment nine is the one against bearing false witness, which is clearly meant to be a moral one, and is about as useful as the list gets, but even there it's a pretty blunt code. Clearly there are situations where bearing false witness against your neighbor could be the moral thing to do, as part of achieving some greater good.

The last item isn't so much a moral commandment as an impossible psychological expectation. It says you can't covet your neighbor's stuff. However, since coveting is merely an emotional response, and emotions aren't under conscious control, it's absurd to command people not to feel that emotion. And even if it were possible to consciously prevent ourselves from feeling a desire to have the things that others have, why would morality require us to do so? Isn't any economic system --and human progress in general-- based in part on people wanting to have things they don't yet have... most often things they've seen that other people have? How is that immoral. It might be immoral to nurse a resentment against a neighbor who has more, or to treat a neighbor badly for having more, but merely coveting isn't sinful.

So, taking the list as a whole, we have five purely religious eccentricities, one psychological absurdity, one bit of health advice, and three blunt moral rules of thumb. A halfway bright six-year-old could come up with a better moral guide than that.
 

OK.... so you prefer the list that was on the tablets Moses broke, not the list that God later provided for the replacement set of tablets. That's a little odd, since usually if a set of rules has been superseded by a later set, people treat the later set as authoritative. But that's your call to make. That being the case, I refer you back to my comments to Craig, about the worthlessness of those commandments.

Also, just as a curiosity, note that it's always given as ten commandments, even though there are more than ten commandments.

1 You shall have no other gods before me.

2 You shall not make for yourself a carved image,

3 or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,

4 or that is in the earth beneath,

5 or that is in the water under the earth.

6 You shall not bow down to them or serve them

7 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain

8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,

10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you,

11 or your son,

12 or your daughter,

13 your male servant, or

14 your female servant,

15 or your livestock,

16 or the sojourner who is within your gates.

17 Honor your father and your mother

18 You shall not murder.

19 You shall not commit adultery.

20 You shall not steal.

21 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

22 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house;

23 you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife,

24 or his male servant,

25 or his female servant,

26 or his ox,

27 his donkey,

28 anything that is your neighbor’s

With at least 28 commandments embedded in those so-called ten commandments, spread over eleven verses, I guess it should be no surprise that the Catholics, Protestants, and Jews can't even agree on what the ten commandments are, even when they're referring to the same text. In Judaism, the first commandment is "I am the Lord they God." Catholics and Protestants start with what Jews consider to be the second commandment (the bit about not having other gods before Yahweh). The Jews avoid having eleven commandments by stuffing the "no gods before me" and the "no making images" items into a single second commandment, rather than splitting them into two like the Protestants do.

http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm#Controversy

Meanwhile, Catholics skip that nonsense about not making images, and just skip ahead to not taking the Lord's name in vain. They get to ten commandments by treating not coveting the neighbor's wife and not coveting his goods as two commandments, whereas the Protestants and Jews treat them as just one. Islam also embraced the Old Testament, but doesn't seem to get hung up on those commandments, except to the extent they're echoed in the Koran.
 
A wonderful treatise on the idiocy that is religion, Arkady. The Commandment I find hardest to observe is the one that says: 'Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass'. It has become even harder since that blonde shiska moved next door to our house.
 
I believe in an intelligent Creator. The Bible, in my singular opinion, is a history book of man seeking his Creator. It was inspired by that Creator (because man was seeking *It* [that Creator]) but it was not written by the Creator. It was written by man and it expresses what man at the time it was written could understand. Nothing more. It was like a dust mite contemplating my big toe and trying to write down a description of what I am like, what I think, what I want it to do. There is absolutely no way that it could be correct, but it might give other dust mites a direction to travel if the Big Toe was contemplated by a very intelligent dust mite.

The idea of the Creator existing was a start. And some *dust mites* got the idea of what should happen closer than other dust mites, but they were at least moving in a direction. So let's move on with the Big Toe and the dm's (dust mites). I, through my Big Toe find a way to let the dm's know that they should get along with each other, move in a group, and poop downstream from where they drink. DM's come to understand those laws of living and are able to figure out some other scientific laws (which I, the Big Toe have created) to give them a better life. Some things they figure out are stupid or mean (kill everyone in the way),others are good (don't steal your pal's wife). But their belief in the Big Toe is helping them. Later, they build themselves a big toe out of mud. I have to somehow show them that that other (fake) big toe can't help them out like I can. A little destruction is necessary. Oh well. Later I see that these dust mites are just stupid so I need to throw water on all of them and start again.
......

Throughout our history, we have evolved enough to think quite a lot of ourselves. We think we are pretty powerful and can do almost anything with our fantastic minds. Some of us don't even believe in the Big Toe [Creator] anymore. Some do. But belief or non-belief in the Creator doesn't change its reality. It is what it is. And the one thing (to make a long story shorter) that we can be sure of that the Creator is trying to teach us is that he loves us little people for some reason and we should try to find a way to love each other in some manner (love being a word that has many different meanings) and that we should never stop trying to figure out who He [Creator] is because there's a lot we can learn from a Big Toe that creates dust mites.

I believe that organized religion sets itself to have some magical connection with the Creator and its leaders goal is to control people. I believe that all religion is corrupt. ALL. No exception. That doesn't mean that no religion can provide a person with a connection to our Creator. A person just has to see beyond the dogma of the religion of choice. Interaction with and the connection to our Creator is personal. Some people find it easily, others never find it. I don't know the reason for that.

I will leave you with one thing. I believe that Hugo Chavez was one of the most evil men on earth at this time. There have been others just as evil as he, but he ranks right up there with the Hitlers and other evil people. But when I heard that his last words were "Don't let me die", I realized that he was also human and I prayed that somehow he found a connection with his Creator before death took him.

I hope that for all of us.
 
Jen sez: I believe that Hugo Chavez was one of the most evil men on earth at this time. There have been others just as evil as he, but he ranks right up there with the Hitlers and other evil people.

Jen: What do you base this statement on? Can you list for us the atrocities the put Chavez up there with the likes of Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Menahem Begin, Arik Sharon, and the Talmudic Zionists? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Jen sez: I believe that Hugo Chavez was one of the most evil men on earth at this time. There have been others just as evil as he, but he ranks right up there with the Hitlers and other evil people.

Jen: What do you base this statement on? Can you list for us the atrocities the put Chavez up there with the likes of Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Menahem Begin, Arik Sharon, and the Talmudic Zionists? Inquiring minds want to know.

1. Chavez himself said he was a Maoist at heart. LINK and Mao Zedong is on your list.

2. He was a dictator who made his country's constitution unnecessary and beneath his rule. That he was inaugurated in January without even having to be there shows evidence of that (same link).

3. His alliances were with Libya, Iraq, and Iran and Syria, and former members of his military alleged he supported Al Qaeda as well.

4. He acted as Iran's banker allowing them to avoid the penalties of their sanctions.

5. His regime resembles that of Fidel Castro (and the people are impoverished while the elite are rich)

That he hated the USA should tell us something, but that was not the criteria I used to deem him one of the most evil men of our world.
 
and you feel those 4 items qualify him to be one of the most evil men on earth?? hahahahahaahahahahahahaha
 
so its not what you actually DO that makes you evil, its what you SAY YOU ARE??!! hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha no wonder Americas always getting herself in the dumper!!!
 
1. Chavez himself said he was a Maoist at heart. LINK and Mao Zedong is on your list.

2. He was a dictator who made his country's constitution unnecessary and beneath his rule. That he was inaugurated in January without even having to be there shows evidence of that (same link).

3. His alliances were with Libya, Iraq, and Iran and Syria, and former members of his military alleged he supported Al Qaeda as well.

4. He acted as Iran's banker allowing them to avoid the penalties of their sanctions.

5. His regime resembles that of Fidel Castro (and the people are impoverished while the elite are rich)

That he hated the USA should tell us something, but that was not the criteria I used to deem him one of the most evil men of our world.

I must say that I am not surprised by this list. It is basically what I expected, nothing more.
 
Anyone ever mention, gabe, that you tend to laugh in inappropriate places? There are brain injuries that cause that. It should be worrisome to you that you do it so much.

so its not what you actually DO that makes you evil, its what you SAY YOU ARE??!! hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha no wonder Americas always getting herself in the dumper!!!
 
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