PDS

[Yuri Zhivago]

please, if you have time read the whole long article , devoid of hysteria:

Putin is not Hitler. He is not looking to exterminate a race, march into the Baltics and/or Eastern and Central Europe, or even retake all of Ukraine, and/or otherwise act like a genocidal maniac intent on taking over an entire Continent (incidentally, how insulting these comparisons to Hitler must be to Russian ears, given their immense sacrifices beating back Nazism, far greater than America’s in terms of loss of life). He is a quite able tactician protecting key interests when he has reached a limit of patience, in ’08 with Georgia, today with Crimea given the events in Kiev. The entire focus now needs to be focused on restraining Putin from entering Eastern Ukraine proper (forget about bona fide ‘observers’ in Crimea for now, that’s done!) to mitigate further room for miscalculation and gross bloodshed such an expansion of military action could engender. If Dr. Kissinger were younger, we might dare to hope we could nominate him for such a complex task. In his absence, retire the list-icles and schoolmarm remonstrations and let us get to the hard-work of interfacing with our opponent intelligently. The stakes are high, and President Obama—whatever you make of him too—must become directly involved even more, to include further dialogue at his level with Putin, and the new authorities in Kiev.

http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/2014/03/an_epidemic_of_putin_derangeme.html

 

[crowfoot]

please, if you have time read the whole long article , devoid of hysteria:

Putin is not Hitler. He is not looking to exterminate a race, march into the Baltics and/or Eastern and Central Europe, or even retake all of Ukraine, and/or otherwise act like a genocidal maniac intent on taking over an entire Continent (incidentally, how insulting these comparisons to Hitler must be to Russian ears, given their immense sacrifices beating back Nazism, far greater than America’s in terms of loss of life). He is a quite able tactician protecting key interests when he has reached a limit of patience, in ’08 with Georgia, today with Crimea given the events in Kiev. The entire focus now needs to be focused on restraining Putin from entering Eastern Ukraine proper (forget about bona fide ‘observers’ in Crimea for now, that’s done!) to mitigate further room for miscalculation and gross bloodshed such an expansion of military action could engender. If Dr. Kissinger were younger, we might dare to hope we could nominate him for such a complex task. In his absence, retire the list-icles and schoolmarm remonstrations and let us get to the hard-work of interfacing with our opponent intelligently. The stakes are high, and President Obama—whatever you make of him too—must become directly involved even more, to include further dialogue at his level with Putin, and the new authorities in Kiev.

http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/2014/03/an_epidemic_of_putin_derangeme.html

loved it

 

[Mytzlplk]

please, if you have time read the whole long article , devoid of hysteria:

Putin is not Hitler. He is not looking to exterminate a race, march into the Baltics and/or Eastern and Central Europe, or even retake all of Ukraine, and/or otherwise act like a genocidal maniac intent on taking over an entire Continent (incidentally, how insulting these comparisons to Hitler must be to Russian ears, given their immense sacrifices beating back Nazism, far greater than America’s in terms of loss of life). He is a quite able tactician protecting key interests when he has reached a limit of patience, in ’08 with Georgia, today with Crimea given the events in Kiev. The entire focus now needs to be focused on restraining Putin from entering Eastern Ukraine proper (forget about bona fide ‘observers’ in Crimea for now, that’s done!) to mitigate further room for miscalculation and gross bloodshed such an expansion of military action could engender. If Dr. Kissinger were younger, we might dare to hope we could nominate him for such a complex task. In his absence, retire the list-icles and schoolmarm remonstrations and let us get to the hard-work of interfacing with our opponent intelligently. The stakes are high, and President Obama—whatever you make of him too—must become directly involved even more, to include further dialogue at his level with Putin, and the new authorities in Kiev.

http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/2014/03/an_epidemic_of_putin_derangeme.html

we americans, and even after 9/11, have no appreciation or understanding of what it actually feels like to be a country like Russia or Iran to have the only super power breathing down your neck and meddling in ways that hurt the common interests of the/their people, and all largely over dominion and control of resources mostly involving finance/banking and energy.

I think military interventions or the threat of its use should be confined to self defense alone, but that's no bar to understanding why others don't think that way. And as we know, it's often easier to quarterback when things have been kept simple by the press as has been the case here, than after both sides have been heard.

 

[RickWA]

please, if you have time read the whole long article , devoid of hysteria:

Putin is not Hitler. He is not looking to exterminate a race, march into the Baltics and/or Eastern and Central Europe, or even retake all of Ukraine, and/or otherwise act like a genocidal maniac intent on taking over an entire Continent (incidentally, how insulting these comparisons to Hitler must be to Russian ears, given their immense sacrifices beating back Nazism, far greater than America’s in terms of loss of life). He is a quite able tactician protecting key interests when he has reached a limit of patience, in ’08 with Georgia, today with Crimea given the events in Kiev. The entire focus now needs to be focused on restraining Putin from entering Eastern Ukraine proper (forget about bona fide ‘observers’ in Crimea for now, that’s done!) to mitigate further room for miscalculation and gross bloodshed such an expansion of military action could engender. If Dr. Kissinger were younger, we might dare to hope we could nominate him for such a complex task. In his absence, retire the list-icles and schoolmarm remonstrations and let us get to the hard-work of interfacing with our opponent intelligently. The stakes are high, and President Obama—whatever you make of him too—must become directly involved even more, to include further dialogue at his level with Putin, and the new authorities in Kiev.

http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/2014/03/an_epidemic_of_putin_derangeme.html

Honestly, Sash, I am not on board with Russia's navigation of this mess...but I will admit that I am not expert in modern Russian/Ukrainian politics (outside of the obvious). I am in favor of the USA bowing out and leaving the matter to Ukraine, Russia, and Europe. We're just too uninvolved geopolitically...and too much involved agenda-wise.

 

[Yuri Zhivago]

Honestly, Sash, I am not on board with Russia's navigation of this mess...but I will admit that I am not expert in modern Russian/Ukrainian politics (outside of the obvious). I am in favor of the USA bowing out and leaving the matter to Ukraine, Russia, and Europe. We're just too uninvolved geopolitically...and too much involved agenda-wise.

Rick, we are talking 1000 years of history and close blood relationship between those two nations, if there was no Kiev, -there probably would not even been Russia as we know it today, and if there was not Russia later in history the whole Ukraine remained the vassal of Poland and Sweden for centuries. I say there are probably not as many close people to each other, brothers and sisters, on this planet, as Russians and Ukrainians.
I can not even fathom for a second if God forbid a conflict, that Russian or Uke army will be shooting at their brothers- that never happened, on the official army to army conflict.
There sure were communists vs non-commies , which was not ethnic but mostly ideological conflict, but never one country as a whole against another.( there were a few Ukes ,who grew up under the Austrian empire and had little interaction with Russians, those kinda do not like Russians much, which breaks my heart.)
The way I see this, Crimea and especially Sevastopol, for which Russians spilled blood of thousands of her citizens against turks and tatars, should morally, legally etc, belong to Russia. If Israel claimed the lands they lost thousands years ago, why not Russia, which lost the land 50 years ago and due to drunken Khrushchev gifting it to Ukraine.
Honest Ukrainians know, Crimea and especially Sevastopol do not belong to them. Please, return t done by drunken communist, gift.

 

[PhilFish]

Rick, we are talking 1000 years of history and close blood relationship between those two nations, if there was no Kiev, -there probably would not even been Russia as we know it today, and if there was not Russia later in history the whole Ukraine remained the vassal of Poland and Sweden for centuries. I say there are probably not as many close people to each other, brothers and sisters, on this planet, as Russians and Ukrainians.
I can not even fathom for a second if God forbid a conflict, that Russian or Uke army will be shooting at their brothers- that never happened, on the official army to army conflict.
There sure were communists vs non-commies , which was not ethnic but mostly ideological conflict, but never one country as a whole against another.( there were a few Ukes ,who grew up under the Austrian empire and had little interaction with Russians, those kinda do not like Russians much, which breaks my heart.)
The way I see this, Crimea and especially Sevastopol, for which Russians spilled blood of thousands of her citizens against turks and tatars, should morally, legally etc, belong to Russia. If Israel claimed the lands they lost thousands years ago, why not Russia, which lost the land 50 years ago and due to drunken Khrushchev gifting it to Ukraine.
Honest Ukrainians know, Crimea and especially Sevastopol do not belong to them. Please, return t done by drunken communist, gift.

Interesting perspective. Its as though those thousands no..millions that died under Soviet rule were but..meh...a passing spat. .

 

[Yuri Zhivago]

Interesting perspective. Its as though those thousands no..millions that died under Soviet rule were but..meh...a passing spat. .

what the f* that has to do with what I said( and I did mention this when pointed that it was not ethnic , but ideological, why are you turning this into the ethnic hatred?)

 

[crowfoot]

Interesting perspective. Its as though those thousands no..millions that died under Soviet rule were but..meh...a passing spat. .

this from a guy that comes from a country that tore itself apart with a civil war!! lol

 

[Yuri Zhivago]

this from a guy that comes from a country that tore itself apart with a civil war!! lol

yep and civil war was not an ethnic animosity , but an ideological fight.
But if you noticed ,there are some Western Ukes, who or their parents grew up under the Austrian/ Polish oppression, who are turning this into the hatred against Russians as people, instead of directing it towards communism. Well, I guess, they prefer Germans and pine for the times they were second class citizens.

 

[crowfoot]

yep and civil war was not an ethnic animosity , but an ideological fight.
But if you noticed ,there are some Western Ukes, who or their parents grew up under the Austrian/ Polish oppression, who are turning this into the hatred against Russians as people, instead of directing it towards communism. Well, I guess, they prefer Germans and pine for the times they were second class citizens.

itvb wasnt even really all that ideological. it was nothing more than pure unadalterated tribalism

 

[zzigzzag]

Interesting perspective. Its as though those thousands no..millions that died under Soviet rule were but..meh...a passing spat. .

They weren't as good at genocide as we European Americans were. It takes focus and determination.

 

[PhilFish]

what the f* that has to do with what I said( and I did mention this when pointed that it was not ethnic , but ideological, why are you turning this into the ethnic hatred?)

Ok...youre right. Its love. I see it now how blind of me. It was all love...taking perennially that which is your brothers.. silly me.

 

[Yuri Zhivago]

Ok...youre right. Its love. I see it now how blind of me. It was all love...taking perennially that which is your brothers.. silly me.

I beg you, phil, don't mix up ethnic with ideological POSs the commies were.
Russians always loved and will always love Ukes.

 

[PhilFish]

I beg you, phil, don't mix up ethnic with ideological POSs the commies were.
Russians always loved and will always love Ukes.

then you will kindly respect our territorial integrity. no?

 

[Yuri Zhivago]

then you will kindly respect our territorial integrity. no?

of course, I respect everything about Ukes,- food mmmm, my grandma from Poltava was making the best vareniki and galushki in the world, language, so easy for me to understand and which sound is so endearing to Russian ear, music, dances, jokes horilka etc, etc.
But Crimea, phil, is a mistake. Please, return it back .
I will not support any incursion into Ukraine proper. Ever. And if that were to happen(god forbid) I will join you in condemning Putin of whoever will make that decision

 

[Zam-Zam]

please, if you have time read the whole long article , devoid of hysteria:

Putin is not Hitler.



Interesting. I know someone who may not entirely agree however:

Washington (AFP) - Former US secretary of state Hillary Clinton has compared Russian President Vladimir Putin's recent steps in Ukraine to aggression by Adolf Hitler in 1930s Nazi Germany, a local paper reported.

Clinton, speaking at a private event Tuesday in southern California, said Putin's apparent deployment of Russian troops into neighboring Ukraine -- a former Soviet satellite state -- to protect Russian citizens and Russian-speakers recalls moves by Hitler to protect ethnic Germans living outside of Germany.

The Long Beach Press Telegram which reported the story said Clinton noted that Putin has sought to provide Russian passports to people in Ukraine with ties to Russia.

In the aftermath of the ouster of Ukraine's pro-Moscow president Viktor Yanukovych, Kiev's new authorities have accused Putin of inflaming tensions by sending troops into the Crimea, a majority-Russian peninsula in Ukraine.

"Now if this sounds familiar, it's what Hitler did back in the 30s," the Press Telegram quoted Clinton as telling attendees at a fundraiser for the Boys and Girls Clubs of Long Beach, California.

"The ethnic Germans, the Germans by ancestry who were in places like Czechoslovakia and Romania and other places, Hitler kept saying they're not being treated right. 'I must go and protect my people,' and that's what's gotten everybody so nervous," she added.



Complete text: http://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clint...-165329906.html;_ylt=AwrBJR6ishhTrBQA6PfQtDMD



I hope you can set her straight.

 

[worldlymrb]

@Yuri,

Your right! Putin is not Hitler and not out to destroy a race, unlike the genocide that is occurring for blacks in very progressive American cities like NYC/Chicago. <link>

 

[PhilFish]

of course, I respect everything about Ukes,- food mmmm, my grandma from Poltava was making the best vareniki and galushki in the world, language, so easy for me to understand and which sound is so endearing to Russian ear, music, dances, jokes horilka etc, etc.
But Crimea, phil, is a mistake. Please, return it back .
I will not support any incursion into Ukraine proper. Ever. And if that were to happen(god forbid) I will join you in condemning Putin of whoever will make that decision

I support the return of Crimea to Russia... IF....it came to pass that...

- Russia removed all military influence, entirely
-the crimean people (all of them) were to call upon their duly elected government (not the ones installed at gunpoint...)
-said people were to have their goverment submit to the Govt of Ukraine (the legal and proper entity....whose land it is today...a request for a referendum..
-said referendum to occur under legal auspices - at a time sufficient for all residents to vote..
-under internation observers... and tallied by Ukrainian and Crimean representatives..
-So ratified, I would support the results..

Not what we have. is it?

 

[as seen on tv]

at what point will Putin's geopolitical ambition actually make him like hitler?

he's invaded Soviet Georgia; massacreing muslims in Chechnya, and now Ukraine. Will one more invasion do it?

 

[Yuri Zhivago]

at what point will Putin's geopolitical ambition actually make him like hitler?

he's invaded Soviet Georgia; massacreing muslims in Chechnya, and now Ukraine. Will one more invasion do it?

when he will start ethnic genocide?
so far he is just like Bush's milder version