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So much for rational self interest.

Arkady

President
It's odd how divergent Trump's policies and his voter base are. His voters were disproportionately older people living in less economically developed parts of the country, yet you could argue that's just who his policies are most likely to hurt.

Consider, for example, Trumpcare. It effectively functions as a reduction of the subsidy that, under Obamacare, flowed from young and healthy people (and very rich people) to old and sick people. Say you're a 55-year-old former manufacturing worker currently cobbling together $26,500 of income from odd jobs. The CBO says that by the time you're 64 your health premiums will be up 750% versus where they would have been with Affordable Care. Instead of paying $1700 per year for insurance, you'll be paying $14,600. After deducting for insurance, your income would be below the poverty line. Yet that kind of older person is exactly the kind of voter who went for Trump.
upload_2017-3-15_8-30-38.png

Or consider Trump's policies of reducing international trade and immigration. Each of those policies will have winners and losers. But the one group that's most likely to lose are older people. If you're a retiree living on a fixed income, you're not out there competing with new immigrants, most of whom do manual labor jobs. It's not like you're going to miss out on the dream landscaping or box-stacking job because a Mexican immigrant will do it for cheaper. So, if the flow of immigrants is reduced, that's not going to be a benefit for you like it might be for a young person with no work experience who could find himself in head-to-head competition with those immigrants. But, if the flow of immigrants is reduced, you, as an older person, are more likely to find that the kind of help older people can benefit from is soon priced too high for you to afford. Right now it's cheap for an older person to hire someone to plow his driveway or mow his lawn, or to provide some of the lower-skill home healthcare work that can make it possible for a physically impaired person to continue living independently. But as that immigrant-heavy labor pool is drained, those prices will rise.

Similarly, if we impose high tariffs and other protectionist trade strategies, the negative fallout is likely to fall disproportionately on older people. In theory, such protectionism could benefit some young people just entering the workforce. The kind of labor-intensive steel mills we had in the past aren't coming back, thanks to automation, but if people are forced to buy expensive American steel instead of cheap foreign alternatives, there will be a handful of extra jobs available for people to run the robots in those factories. Older workers are going to be hard-pressed to convince employers to train them up for those kinds of jobs, but tech-savvy (and cheap) younger workers will look like an investment worth making. Meanwhile, the higher consumer prices, due to the reduction of cheap imports, will hit everyone, but will be particularly hard on those on a fixed income and those who can't train up as easily to fill the new roles available in the labor market.

So, it seems likely that Trump's policies will be roughest on the very people who were most supportive of him. They're likely to see much more expensive health care, increasing costs to hire domestic help, and rapid inflation for consumer goods (without income growth to offset that). Inflation has been effectively dead for so long that people have forgotten how rough it can be, when incomes don't rise commensurately. Older people are particularly likely to find themselves in that situation in coming years.
 
liar liar, pants on fire.

the demographics of trump and Hillary voters are well known (see link at bottom). let me summarize for you.

- dropouts and those with only a high school diploma supported Hillary by a wide margin
- people earning less than $50K a year supported Hillary; over $50k a year voted for trump
- people in the hood voted for Hillary - aren't they "economically underdeveloped"?
- people in the suburbs and farm/rural areas voted for trump

http://www.businessinsider.com/exit...f-support-from-voters-with-higher-education-7
 
Trump talks a good game(for a republican) on poverty, but words are cheap. His actions tell a different story. Republicans voters for some unknown reason take the man at his word, even though he just makes everything up. Literally nothing he says has a basis in reality. Soon reality will catch up his voters, and they will flee Trump.
It is always bewildering to me to see Trump supporters twist themselves in knots trying to defend the stupid sh*t Trump says. It always comes down to one thing for them, "At least he isn't Hillary". Republicans at this point are more concerned with seeing Democrats fail than succeeding themselves or helping the American public.
 
Trump talks a good game(for a republican) on poverty, but words are cheap. His actions tell a different story. Republicans voters for some unknown reason take the man at his word, even though he just makes everything up. Literally nothing he says has a basis in reality. Soon reality will catch up his voters, and they will flee Trump.
It is always bewildering to me to see Trump supporters twist themselves in knots trying to defend the stupid sh*t Trump says. It always comes down to one thing for them, "At least he isn't Hillary". Republicans at this point are more concerned with seeing Democrats fail than succeeding themselves or helping the American public.

Everything that Democrats are doing proves THEY are more concerned with seeing Trump fail than succeeding or helping the American public. I never wanted to see Obama fail...but he did. If Hillary had won, I wouldn't want to see her fail either. A failing President is just bad for the country. Thank God Obama is gone....thank God Hillary didn't win. Now we can work on MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. If Trump fails, it should be because HE did things wrong. It shouldn't be because almost half the country (liberals) made him fail! That's what I call Un-American. How about you?
 
liar liar, pants on fire.

Be specific, please. What "lie" are you referring to? I claimed that Trump's voters were disproportionately older people living in less economically developed parts of the country. Which of those two facts are you disputing?

Are you unaware that they were disproportionately older voters? If so, see here:

http://www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls

As you can see, Clinton got over 50% of the vote for each of the three age demographics between 18 and 39, while Trump got over 50% for the two age groups 50 and older.

Or were you unaware they were from less economically developed parts of the country? If so, this should help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

As you can see, Clinton won all ten of the top ten entries, when it comes to median household income, whereas Trump dominated in economically backwards places like MS, WV, AR, KY, AL, TN, and LA. In fact, of the poorest twenty states, in terms of median household income, Trump only lost two: New Mexico, and Maine.

Also, while we're on the topic, I've been warned repeatedly about name-calling, and threatened with suspension. I'm curious if you have the same issue. For example, you called me a liar in your post, despite the fact what I said was verifiable. Did you receive a warning? Or is this more of a "no calling conservatives names" rule?
 
Everything that Democrats are doing proves THEY are more concerned with seeing Trump fail than succeeding or helping the American public. I never wanted to see Obama fail...but he did. If Hillary had won, I wouldn't want to see her fail either. A failing President is just bad for the country. Thank God Obama is gone....thank God Hillary didn't win. Now we can work on MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. If Trump fails, it should be because HE did things wrong. It shouldn't be because almost half the country (liberals) made him fail! That's what I call Un-American. How about you?

Well said, Caroljo. It could also be argued that Trump voters, by MAYBE voting against their own gain, are obviously more concerned for future generations than leftists who only care about "what's in it for me me me me me?"
 
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Everything that Democrats are doing proves THEY are more concerned with seeing Trump fail than succeeding or helping the American public. I never wanted to see Obama fail...but he did. If Hillary had won, I wouldn't want to see her fail either. A failing President is just bad for the country. Thank God Obama is gone....thank God Hillary didn't win. Now we can work on MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN. If Trump fails, it should be because HE did things wrong. It shouldn't be because almost half the country (liberals) made him fail! That's what I call Un-American. How about you?
Trump is too busy tweeting about Snoop Dogg to help anyone.
 
Trump is too busy tweeting about Snoop Dogg to help anyone.
That's all you got? Thanks for admitting that you can't refute what I said.
Also....Snoop should be arrested for that video. I can just imagine what would have happened if some white country singer even had lyrics about shooting Obama, let alone showing it happening on video!! Tell me I'm wrong....smh.
 
I never wanted to see Obama fail...but he did.

I suppose that depends on your perspective. I come from the perspective of an American patriot, who wants to see things improve for the American people, and so from my perspective Obama succeeded. As surely you're aware, on his watch median real family incomes reached an all-time high, as did real per capita GDP, unemployment plunged to near "full employment" levels, real wages hit all-time highs, crime rates dropped, including big falls for murder rates and violent crime rates in general, teen pregnancy rates hit an all-time low, so did drop-out rates, incarceration rates started falling for the first time in decades, we went eight years without a single large-scale terrorist attack in America (something we obviously can't say about either of the two preceding presidents' terms), we drastically cut the losses of both American tax dollars and American lives in Middle East conflicts, the federal budget deficit dropped hugely, we started what would end up being at least the third-longest economic growth cycle in American history, US approval ratings abroad rose, the percentage of Americans without health insurance plummeted, the rate of health insurance cost growth fell, the US clawed its way eight spots back up the international rankings of life expectancy, the stock market went through one of the very best eight-year runs in its history, etc.

But, as I said, it depends on your perspective. If you come at it from the perspective of someone who wants to see Americans suffer, and was hoping that Obama would succeed in furthering the decimation we'd suffered in the Bush years, then I grant he was a HUGE failure.

It shouldn't be because almost half the country (liberals) made him fail!

You're directing blame the wrong way. Trump's failure will be because of the roughly 20% of the country who voted for him. If not for them, he'd still be confined to small-scale failures -- you know, driving resorts into the ground, or swindling a few thousand people with a fake university, or maybe making moves that kill some minor sports league like the USFL. The reason he's in a position where his failures will be failures for America as a whole is because of the roughly 63 million Americans who thought it would be a good idea to put a dim-witted, psychologically unstable con man in the Oval Office to see what will happen.
 
That's all you got? Thanks for admitting that you can't refute what I said.
Also....Snoop should be arrested for that video. I can just imagine what would have happened if some white country singer even had lyrics about shooting Obama, let alone showing it happening on video!! Tell me I'm wrong....smh.
What Republican policy "MAKES AMERICA GREAT AGAIN"?
there are none. It's an empty slogan. You can chant all you want, but without any action it is meaningless. The only they Republicans stand for is not being democrat.
When push comes to shove and Republicans are forced to actually put policy ideas to paper, they turn out like Trumpcare-A pile of hot garbage that helps absolutely no one. Face it, The Republicans is incapable of thinking for themselves.
-You do realize you are playing right into Snoop Dogg's pocketbook. By stirring up the pot, he gets free publicity and sells more records, its a page right outa Trump's playbook.
 
I suppose that depends on your perspective. I come from the perspective of an American patriot, who wants to see things improve for the American people, and so from my perspective Obama succeeded. As surely you're aware, on his watch median real family incomes reached an all-time high, as did real per capita GDP, unemployment plunged to near "full employment" levels, real wages hit all-time highs, crime rates dropped, including big falls for murder rates and violent crime rates in general, teen pregnancy rates hit an all-time low, so did drop-out rates, incarceration rates started falling for the first time in decades, we went eight years without a single large-scale terrorist attack in America (something we obviously can't say about either of the two preceding presidents' terms), we drastically cut the losses of both American tax dollars and American lives in Middle East conflicts, the federal budget deficit dropped hugely, we started what would end up being at least the third-longest economic growth cycle in American history, US approval ratings abroad rose, the percentage of Americans without health insurance plummeted, the rate of health insurance cost growth fell, the US clawed its way eight spots back up the international rankings of life expectancy, the stock market went through one of the very best eight-year runs in its history, etc.

But, as I said, it depends on your perspective. If you come at it from the perspective of someone who wants to see Americans suffer, and was hoping that Obama would succeed in furthering the decimation we'd suffered in the Bush years, then I grant he was a HUGE failure.



You're directing blame the wrong way. Trump's failure will be because of the roughly 20% of the country who voted for him. If not for them, he'd still be confined to small-scale failures -- you know, driving resorts into the ground, or swindling a few thousand people with a fake university, or maybe making moves that kill some minor sports league like the USFL. The reason he's in a position where his failures will be failures for America as a whole is because of the roughly 63 million Americans who thought it would be a good idea to put a dim-witted, psychologically unstable con man in the Oval Office to see what will happen.
After the Bush year Obama was existential threat to the Republican party. 2001-2009 saw Republican ideas fail time and time again. The American public was fed up with republican ideas. Obama got elected and he changed the Republican party, no longer were they advocating policy ideas of their own because the the American public whole-heartedly rejected them. They rebranded themselves as the party of "Not-Obama" and eventually "Not-Hillary". It was a shallow maneuver, that would pay dividends in the short term, but its in no way sustainable. Now that Obama and Hillary are history they have nothing to stand for, and the American public is slowly but surely coming to there senses.
 
What Republican policy "MAKES AMERICA GREAT AGAIN"?
there are none. It's an empty slogan. You can chant all you want, but without any action it is meaningless. The only they Republicans stand for is not being democrat.
When push comes to shove and Republicans are forced to actually put policy ideas to paper, they turn out like Trumpcare-A pile of hot garbage that helps absolutely no one. Face it, The Republicans is incapable of thinking for themselves.
-You do realize you are playing right into Snoop Dogg's pocketbook. By stirring up the pot, he gets free publicity and sells more records, its a page right outa Trump's playbook.

I didn't know whether to laugh at you, or disagree. I thought laugh was more appropriate. :).
So...could you respond to what I said about Snoop? I see you ignored it. What would happen if someone had done this to Obama? I'd just like to see your answer to that.
 
It's odd how divergent Trump's policies and his voter base are. His voters were disproportionately older people living in less economically developed parts of the country, yet you could argue that's just who his policies are most likely to hurt.

Consider, for example, Trumpcare. It effectively functions as a reduction of the subsidy that, under Obamacare, flowed from young and healthy people (and very rich people) to old and sick people. Say you're a 55-year-old former manufacturing worker currently cobbling together $26,500 of income from odd jobs. The CBO says that by the time you're 64 your health premiums will be up 750% versus where they would have been with Affordable Care. Instead of paying $1700 per year for insurance, you'll be paying $14,600. After deducting for insurance, your income would be below the poverty line. Yet that kind of older person is exactly the kind of voter who went for Trump.
View attachment 35599

Or consider Trump's policies of reducing international trade and immigration. Each of those policies will have winners and losers. But the one group that's most likely to lose are older people. If you're a retiree living on a fixed income, you're not out there competing with new immigrants, most of whom do manual labor jobs. It's not like you're going to miss out on the dream landscaping or box-stacking job because a Mexican immigrant will do it for cheaper. So, if the flow of immigrants is reduced, that's not going to be a benefit for you like it might be for a young person with no work experience who could find himself in head-to-head competition with those immigrants. But, if the flow of immigrants is reduced, you, as an older person, are more likely to find that the kind of help older people can benefit from is soon priced too high for you to afford. Right now it's cheap for an older person to hire someone to plow his driveway or mow his lawn, or to provide some of the lower-skill home healthcare work that can make it possible for a physically impaired person to continue living independently. But as that immigrant-heavy labor pool is drained, those prices will rise.

Similarly, if we impose high tariffs and other protectionist trade strategies, the negative fallout is likely to fall disproportionately on older people. In theory, such protectionism could benefit some young people just entering the workforce. The kind of labor-intensive steel mills we had in the past aren't coming back, thanks to automation, but if people are forced to buy expensive American steel instead of cheap foreign alternatives, there will be a handful of extra jobs available for people to run the robots in those factories. Older workers are going to be hard-pressed to convince employers to train them up for those kinds of jobs, but tech-savvy (and cheap) younger workers will look like an investment worth making. Meanwhile, the higher consumer prices, due to the reduction of cheap imports, will hit everyone, but will be particularly hard on those on a fixed income and those who can't train up as easily to fill the new roles available in the labor market.

So, it seems likely that Trump's policies will be roughest on the very people who were most supportive of him. They're likely to see much more expensive health care, increasing costs to hire domestic help, and rapid inflation for consumer goods (without income growth to offset that). Inflation has been effectively dead for so long that people have forgotten how rough it can be, when incomes don't rise commensurately. Older people are particularly likely to find themselves in that situation in coming years.

Perhaps you should read this. It might help you. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile...on/why-rural-america-voted-for-trump.amp.html
 
I didn't know whether to laugh at you, or disagree. I thought laugh was more appropriate. :).
So...could you respond to what I said about Snoop? I see you ignored it. What would happen if someone had done this to Obama? I'd just like to see your answer to that.
If someone made a music video like that about Obama, I'd say "1st amendment" and proceed to ignore it.
 
If someone made a music video like that about Obama, I'd say "1st amendment" and proceed to ignore it.

You may, but, Secret Service isn't saying that...................and libs would be screaming RACISM as they did for 9 freaking years..........libs ignore nothing bad for America
 
Be specific, please. What "lie" are you referring to? I claimed that Trump's voters were disproportionately older people living in less economically developed parts of the country. Which of those two facts are you disputing?

Are you unaware that they were disproportionately older voters? If so, see here:

http://www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls

As you can see, Clinton got over 50% of the vote for each of the three age demographics between 18 and 39, while Trump got over 50% for the two age groups 50 and older.

Or were you unaware they were from less economically developed parts of the country? If so, this should help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income

As you can see, Clinton won all ten of the top ten entries, when it comes to median household income, whereas Trump dominated in economically backwards places like MS, WV, AR, KY, AL, TN, and LA. In fact, of the poorest twenty states, in terms of median household income, Trump only lost two: New Mexico, and Maine.

Also, while we're on the topic, I've been warned repeatedly about name-calling, and threatened with suspension. I'm curious if you have the same issue. For example, you called me a liar in your post, despite the fact what I said was verifiable. Did you receive a warning? Or is this more of a "no calling conservatives names" rule?

trump voters earn more than $50,000 on average. they live in suburbs. what part of that do you pretend not to understand?

no one is disputing that voters middle age and beyond voted for mostly for trump. are you disputing that age begets wisdom?
 
Well said, Caroljo. It could also be argued that Trump voters, by MAYBE voting against their own gain, are obviously more concerned for future generations than leftists who only care about "what's in it for me me me me me?"
That doesn't seem like a plausible explanation, since there were so many issues that divided Trump from Clinton where Trump's position was the short-term one, which effectively screwed future generations. For example, Trump treated climate change as a Chinese conspiracy, thereby setting up future generations to deal with catastrophic problems, all so current generations don't have to drive slightly more fuel efficient cars or otherwise alter their lifestyles a bit to be environmentally sustainable. Trump was also far more focused on resource extraction -- strip mining the coal fields, and tapping our oil reserves. Those are non-renewable resources, so any rush to tap them now is a way to seize the patrimony that would otherwise be available to future generations, in order to convert it into wealth for today. And of course Trump ran on a tax cut package that was projected to have a $9.5 trillion debt hit. That was essentially a way to make tomorrow's workers pay for the lifestyles of today's wealthy people. Even Trumpcare can be seen as a short-term move.... it cuts support for birth control, which saves money in the short term, in exchange for having more unwanted babies in the next generation, which will impose a cost in terms of dependency when they're kids, and crime when they reach their teens and twenties.
 
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