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Talking White

Arkady

President
Slate has an article examining whether there really is a strong stigma, in black culture, associated with black people talking or acting white:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._proper_english_and_academic_achievement.html

Although I have a couple black people I'm fairly close to, I don't have a good window to look into this. But it is an area I'd be interested to know more about.

Is the stigma against standard English stronger among black people, on average, than among white people? I know I've been ridiculed, even as a white person, for using a big vocabulary and proper pronunciation and grammar. Especially when a person is younger, that's an issue, and I developed a tendency to "code-switch" to fit in better with whatever crowd I was with.

You hear white politicians doing that, too, especially if they're based in the South. When they go home to their districts, suddenly they're drawling words, dropping the endings of their gerunds, using slang like "y'all," and otherwise taking great liberties with the English language, in order to come across as more "homey." A politician can be the scion of an old-money New England aristocratic family, with his high school, college, and grad school having been in Massachusetts and Connecticut, but he sure wouldn't want to be caught sounding like a Yankee while campaigning in Midland. Jewish politicians tend to do it, too. When among Jews and those familiar with the Jewish culture, they tend to slide into heavier Long Island/Brooklyn accents with Yiddish words thrown in, and with some stereotypical Jewish word inversions. Then, in other settings, the accent fades, the Yiddish vanishes, and standard word order is routinely used.

The Slate article, at least, casts some doubt on the idea that academic achievement is coded as "acting white" in the black community as a whole.... it suggests that such coding only happens in certain circumstances, where blacks are in a minority and few of them are among the high academic achievers. In other settings, smart kids are still teased, but no more among blacks than other groups.

The article also makes the point that sometimes teasing may be a reaction to the perceived pretentiousness of refusing to "code-switch" in informal settings. In other words, a person who insists on using standard English in settings where informal dialect normally predominates, could be seen as putting on airs, but perhaps no more in the black community than the white." If I'm with a poor white New England crowd and everyone is describing something as a "wicked pissah," and I respond, "yes, that is indubitably a delightful eventuality," I'm going to be seen as having a rod up my ass. Presumably something similar happens in settings where an "ebonic" dialect is standard, but someone insists on using standard English instead.
 
Slate has an article examining whether there really is a strong stigma, in black culture, associated with black people talking or acting white:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._proper_english_and_academic_achievement.html

Although I have a couple black people I'm fairly close to, I don't have a good window to look into this. But it is an area I'd be interested to know more about.

Is the stigma against standard English stronger among black people, on average, than among white people? I know I've been ridiculed, even as a white person, for using a big vocabulary and proper pronunciation and grammar. Especially when a person is younger, that's an issue, and I developed a tendency to "code-switch" to fit in better with whatever crowd I was with.

You hear white politicians doing that, too, especially if they're based in the South. When they go home to their districts, suddenly they're drawling words, dropping the endings of their gerunds, using slang like "y'all," and otherwise taking great liberties with the English language, in order to come across as more "homey." A politician can be the scion of an old-money New England aristocratic family, with his high school, college, and grad school having been in Massachusetts and Connecticut, but he sure wouldn't want to be caught sounding like a Yankee while campaigning in Midland. Jewish politicians tend to do it, too. When among Jews and those familiar with the Jewish culture, they tend to slide into heavier Long Island/Brooklyn accents with Yiddish words thrown in, and with some stereotypical Jewish word inversions. Then, in other settings, the accent fades, the Yiddish vanishes, and standard word order is routinely used.

The Slate article, at least, casts some doubt on the idea that academic achievement is coded as "acting white" in the black community as a whole.... it suggests that such coding only happens in certain circumstances, where blacks are in a minority and few of them are among the high academic achievers. In other settings, smart kids are still teased, but no more among blacks than other groups.

The article also makes the point that sometimes teasing may be a reaction to the perceived pretentiousness of refusing to "code-switch" in informal settings. In other words, a person who insists on using standard English in settings where informal dialect normally predominates, could be seen as putting on airs, but perhaps no more in the black community than the white." If I'm with a poor white New England crowd and everyone is describing something as a "wicked pissah," and I respond, "yes, that is indubitably a delightful eventuality," I'm going to be seen as having a rod up my ass. Presumably something similar happens in settings where an "ebonic" dialect is standard, but someone insists on using standard English instead.
I have never seen you ridiculed for using proper English, Arkady. I have, however, seen you ridiculed for being a pompous, obnoxious, ass. So please don't worry about "code-switching". It's really not your problem.

That being said, I have talked with blacks about trying to move up into white society (I say "moving up" as a figure of speech) and there is indeed a stigma against "acting too white". It is unfortunate, and I believe it partially explains the high drop out rate among inner city blacks who see school as more of an irrelevancy. Some that I have talked to describe hateful verbal and physical assaults by peers as well as ostracism by the family.
 
Most of us "of a certain age", of whatever color, ethnicity, or background have learned that the ability to code switch effectively, is a necessity, not a burden. Therefore, I'm a little disappointed and confused by those who would advocate that it's "unfair" for this demographic or that, to have to code switch.

If we wish to communicate effectively, we need to speak the language that people will understand. That's just life.
 
Most of us "of a certain age", of whatever color, ethnicity, or background have learned that the ability to code switch effectively, is a necessity, not a burden. Therefore, I'm a little disappointed and confused by those who would advocate that it's "unfair" for this demographic or that, to have to code switch.

If we wish to communicate effectively, we need to speak the language that people will understand. That's just life.
I doubt you'll get any disagreement here.... but how much disagreement would you get anywhere? That's the question I'm trying to get at. How many people out there are there who don't believe people should master standard English, in addition to whatever local or ethnic dialect they may use? I read pretty widely, and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone make that argument. I think sometimes people will bristle against a double-standard, where a black dialect is treated as terrible while an equally grammatically non-standard white dialect isn't, but I assume nearly all of us agree that everyone in this country, of every ethnicity, should aspire to being able to speak and write standard English when appropriate.
 
I doubt you'll get any disagreement here.... but how much disagreement would you get anywhere? That's the question I'm trying to get at. How many people out there are there who don't believe people should master standard English, in addition to whatever local or ethnic dialect they may use? I read pretty widely, and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone make that argument. I think sometimes people will bristle against a double-standard, where a black dialect is treated as terrible while an equally grammatically non-standard white dialect isn't, but I assume nearly all of us agree that everyone in this country, of every ethnicity, should aspire to being able to speak and write standard English when appropriate.

I wouldn't have implied as I did, if I hadn't seen evidence of the phenomenon I've suggested here. To my credit as it were, and as it would be counterproductive, you'll please note that I'm not pointing any specific fingers here.

We're not in a court of law here, trying to make an absolute up or down case to a judge or jury. Therefore, I think we're better served by acknowledging that which is real.
 
Have become acquainted with a young black lady. She is 30 years old. Holds two jobs. Working on her second college degree. Did a 4-year enlistment in the U.S. Air Force. I told her if I was 30 years younger, I'd ask her out. :>) When I inquired as to why she was not married... or at least had a "significant other"... she replied that she spoke too well and was too black. I said.. "What?"

She refuses to speak anything other than proper English. Extremely well spoken young lady. Says she will not date someone with their pants hanging down off their butts. And, says the males of her race like to date either caucasian or light skinned mixed race girls.

I just hope she eventually finds someone deserving of her!!!!!
 
I wouldn't have implied as I did, if I hadn't seen evidence of the phenomenon I've suggested here. To my credit as it were, and as it would be counterproductive, you'll please note that I'm not pointing any specific fingers here.

We're not in a court of law here, trying to make an absolute up or down case to a judge or jury. Therefore, I think we're better served by acknowledging that which is real.
Well, I haven't seen evidence for it, but it's possible we just run in different circles.
 
Have become acquainted with a young black lady. She is 30 years old. Holds two jobs. Working on her second college degree. Did a 4-year enlistment in the U.S. Air Force. I told her if I was 30 years younger, I'd ask her out. :>) When I inquired as to why she was not married... or at least had a "significant other"... she replied that she spoke too well and was too black. I said.. "What?"

She refuses to speak anything other than proper English. Extremely well spoken young lady. Says she will not date someone with their pants hanging down off their butts. And, says the males of her race like to date either caucasian or light skinned mixed race girls.

I just hope she eventually finds someone deserving of her!!!!!
I have definitely seen the phenomenon of darker-skinner black women (and those with more African features generally) having trouble in the dating world. Most of the top "sex symbols" among black women could pass for a white person with a dark tan... like the "blonde" Beyonce, or Rihana, Halle Berry, etc. -- straight hair, small nose, light skin, etc. The culture as a whole has internalized white standards of beauty. So, it would be pretty weird if, at the same time as looking white was such a huge selling point for black women, sounding white was a huge problem. I certainly haven't seen it, since a number of top black actresses, singers, models, etc., have no pronounced ethnic mode of speech.
 
I doubt you'll get any disagreement here.... but how much disagreement would you get anywhere? That's the question I'm trying to get at. How many people out there are there who don't believe people should master standard English, in addition to whatever local or ethnic dialect they may use? I read pretty widely, and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone make that argument. I think sometimes people will bristle against a double-standard, where a black dialect is treated as terrible while an equally grammatically non-standard white dialect isn't, but I assume nearly all of us agree that everyone in this country, of every ethnicity, should aspire to being able to speak and write standard English when appropriate.
I speak standard English at work, but I usually slip back into my southern accent/dialect when I'm home. I was born and raised in California, but I still have a southern accent. It must be from hearing my parents speech while growing up. They were both from Oklahoma. I don't ever speak Ebonics.
 
I have definitely seen the phenomenon of darker-skinner black women (and those with more African features generally) having trouble in the dating world. Most of the top "sex symbols" among black women could pass for a white person with a dark tan... like the "blonde" Beyonce, or Rihana, Halle Berry, etc. -- straight hair, small nose, light skin, etc. The culture as a whole has internalized white standards of beauty. So, it would be pretty weird if, at the same time as looking white was such a huge selling point for black women, sounding white was a huge problem. I certainly haven't seen it, since a number of top black actresses, singers, models, etc., have no pronounced ethnic mode of speech.
There are several darker skinned Black actresses who are just as beautiful as those you mentioned. Saana Lathan, Nia Long, Vivica Fox, Octavia Spencer, Phylicia Rashad and Viola Davis are a few who come to mind.
 
Have become acquainted with a young black lady. She is 30 years old. Holds two jobs. Working on her second college degree. Did a 4-year enlistment in the U.S. Air Force. I told her if I was 30 years younger, I'd ask her out. :>) When I inquired as to why she was not married... or at least had a "significant other"... she replied that she spoke too well and was too black. I said.. "What?"

She refuses to speak anything other than proper English. Extremely well spoken young lady. Says she will not date someone with their pants hanging down off their butts. And, says the males of her race like to date either caucasian or light skinned mixed race girls.

I just hope she eventually finds someone deserving of her!!!!!
I'm sure she will. I just hope she doesn't "settle". If she can't find a man worthy of her, she should stay single.
 
This isn't about the entire race, but the stereotypical American black person.

I'd suggest this isn't even as much about black females, but about black males.

From my perception, amidst my various interactions, the "talking white" issue isn't odd as in it's existance, but the amount of power it has.

If any person of any race is a part of a lower-economic group, culture, etc. and then makes a move towards what is seen by society as upwards, and adopts the approriate changes to do so, there will be resentment amongst those who stay on the bottom.

However, I think in the low-income, black, mostly-male community, the intimidation and pressure amongst those who stay down against those who might rise is far greater. This could spawn from being taught such a deep-seeded disdain for white people from early age through historic tales and folklore that they must resist anything that is seen as "white". Adopting proper speech, among other characteristics, alienates a black young men far more than any white, hispanic, asian, etc.

And it's a shame such peer pressure works to horse-collar tackle those who might think outside of the box.
 
Have become acquainted with a young black lady. She is 30 years old. Holds two jobs. Working on her second college degree. Did a 4-year enlistment in the U.S. Air Force. I told her if I was 30 years younger, I'd ask her out. :>) When I inquired as to why she was not married... or at least had a "significant other"... she replied that she spoke too well and was too black. I said.. "What?"

She refuses to speak anything other than proper English. Extremely well spoken young lady. Says she will not date someone with their pants hanging down off their butts. And, says the males of her race like to date either caucasian or light skinned mixed race girls.

I just hope she eventually finds someone deserving of her!!!!!

At the risk of sounding like the stereotyper from hell, if a young black woman wishes to date a young black man, her best bet is to bleach her skin (ala MJ), bleach her hair, and pack on an extra 100 lbs.
 
At the risk of sounding like the stereotyper from hell, if a young black woman wishes to date a young black man, her best bet is to bleach her skin (ala MJ), bleach her hair, and pack on an extra 100 lbs.
Fairsheet, believe it or not, all Black men do not seek the lighter skinned, straight haired Black women. Even men who are light skinned themselves are attracted to darker skinned women, sometimes. Our society holds fair skin up as the ideal, but not all Blacks go along with that idea.
 
Fairsheet, believe it or not, all Black men do not seek the lighter skinned, straight haired Black women. Even men who are light skinned themselves are attracted to darker skinned women, sometimes. Our society holds fair skin up as the ideal, but not all Blacks go along with that idea.

But isn't it interesting that the white lefty males like Fairsheet and Arkady (who probably doesn't even live within 5 miles of a black person) seem to think they have such a firm grasp of what exactly it is that black women want?

Don't you ever get tired of them trying to speak for you?
 
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