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The Boil Over Thread

Arkady

President
For some reason, the thread about Obama's "boil over" comments is closed, so here's my comment:

What's interesting isn't the video, which says nothing remotely controversial from a climate science perspective. Instead, what's interesting is the lock-step right-wing misinterpretation of the video. The actual line was:

"Ultimately, if you think about all the youth that everybody has mentioned here in Africa, if everybody is raising living standards to the point where everybody has got a car and everybody has got air conditioning, and everybody has got a big house, well, the planet will boil over -- unless we find new ways of producing energy. "

It's pretty damned clear. Yet right-wing loons have showed up in lock-step to insist Obama said Africans can't be allowed cars and air conditioning.... all because some Redstate blogger made that argument and then it was picked up by the usual braying head apparatchiks on the right, so that all the mindless dittoheads would fan out to sites like that to repeat that lie. You ought to be ashamed.
 
I agree, it is pretty clear that he was referring to the effect of the increases...not that cars etc should not be allowed.

I would have thought a play on 'boiling' would have been where it came from..
 
Oh, I'm sorry, but the comment about the world boiling over is in fact controversial. At worst, the worst global warming predicted, is no more than 4 degrees. That's a problem, but it isn't the planet "boiling over" and never will be.
 
Oh, I'm sorry, but the comment about the world boiling over is in fact controversial. At worst, the worst global warming predicted, is no more than 4 degrees. That's a problem, but it isn't the planet "boiling over" and never will be.

It's a rhetorical flourish. No sane person could think he was speaking about reaching a literal boiling point
 
It's a rhetorical flourish. No sane person could think he was speaking about reaching a literal boiling point

You know, before he became president, Abraham Lincoln was well known for the humor and numerous anecdotes and oratorical flourishes used in his speeches. They changed completely after he was elected, he was afraid he'd say the wrong thing and his presidential voice (what T.Roosevelt later named "the bully pulpet") would cause problems.

I realize poor Obama was working without his teleprompter, but he should be more cautious in his use of hyperbole.

The simple fact about global climate change is that it is happening, it is happening slowly, and in a century or so it could legitimately changed coastlines, etcetera, unless over that same century we do something about it -- if we even can. It is not, by any means, certain that the warming is anthropogenic. If it is, we have at least 100 years to deal with the problem, our technology is constantly improving, and either way nothing is going to boil over.

Given that, the sluggish economy is more of a problem.
 
The GOP/TP and it's ideological soul mates never calculate the cost to their credibility for exaggerated, misleading, factually incorrect political attacks designed to create cohesiveness among the conservative aging white coalition and confuse anybody else not paying attention.

The GOP/TP rank and file don't understand what's happening to the GOP/TP because of huge shifts in population demographics. Bush#41 and Romney got the same percentage of white votes but the white share of the electorate was 13% less in 2012 than it was in 1988.

What's the GOP/TP to do? Gerrymander, voter suppress and shout hysterically that the end of the world is coming.
 
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The GOP/TP and it's ideological soul mates never calculate the cost to their credibility for exaggerated, misleading, factually incorrect political attacks designed to create cohesiveness among the conservative aging white coalition.

The GOP/TP rank and file don't understand what's happening to the GOP/TP because of huge shifts in population demographics. Bush#41 and Romney got the same percentage of white votes but the white share of the electorate was 13% less in 2012 than it was in 1988.

What's the GOP/TP to do? Gerrymander, voter suppress and shout hysterically that the end of the world is coming.

You're absolutely right, ARMCX. There's a monumental difference between saying stupid stuff when you're in the majority and saying stupid stuff when you're in the minority. The Fox/GOP just doesn't seem to've figured that out yet...although, I imagine a few have. But, they've lost all discipline and control over their party.
 
For some reason, the thread about Obama's "boil over" comments is closed, so here's my comment:

What's interesting isn't the video, which says nothing remotely controversial from a climate science perspective. Instead, what's interesting is the lock-step right-wing misinterpretation of the video. The actual line was:

"Ultimately, if you think about all the youth that everybody has mentioned here in Africa, if everybody is raising living standards to the point where everybody has got a car and everybody has got air conditioning, and everybody has got a big house, well, the planet will boil over -- unless we find new ways of producing energy. "

It's pretty damned clear. Yet right-wing loons have showed up in lock-step to insist Obama said Africans can't be allowed cars and air conditioning.... all because some Redstate blogger made that argument and then it was picked up by the usual braying head apparatchiks on the right, so that all the mindless dittoheads would fan out to sites like that to repeat that lie. You ought to be ashamed.


I musta missed that particular example of their idiocy and dishonesty. It reads like another example of them injecting meaning into something a dem said that was neither present nor intended. That's what the intellectually shallow and dishonest do. It differs not from one of their favs "You didn't build that!" in form or substance.
 
You know, before he became president, Abraham Lincoln was well known for the humor and numerous anecdotes and oratorical flourishes used in his speeches. They changed completely after he was elected, he was afraid he'd say the wrong thing and his presidential voice (what T.Roosevelt later named "the bully pulpet") would cause problems.

I realize poor Obama was working without his teleprompter, but he should be more cautious in his use of hyperbole.

The simple fact about global climate change is that it is happening, it is happening slowly, and in a century or so it could legitimately changed coastlines, etcetera, unless over that same century we do something about it -- if we even can. It is not, by any means, certain that the warming is anthropogenic. If it is, we have at least 100 years to deal with the problem, our technology is constantly improving, and either way nothing is going to boil over.

Given that, the sluggish economy is more of a problem.

It was an eloquent turn of phrase that got the point across in a way that only a Fox Newser could fail to follow..... it's nice to have a president who, unlike his predecessor, doesn't humiliate this country every time he opens his mouth to speak in an impromptu way.

Anyway, I agree it isn't certain that the warming is anthropogenic. That is, however, the belief of a clear majority of experts across the entire range of relevant fields of science, all around the world. That is a consensus that hasn't merely endured through three decades of intensive research and analysis, but which has actually broadened and deepened over time (with a growing share of the scientific community convinced, and expressing itself with growing conviction about it). As such, it would be shamefully reckless to make policy choices based on anything other than a strong presumption that the expert consensus is correct, notwithstanding the fact that their theory must always, by its very nature, fall somewhere short of absolute certainty.

As for the idea that we have 100 years to deal with the problem, that depends on what you mean. Mankind won't be extinct if we've done nothing to deal with the problem in 100 years, if that's the extent of your point. There will still be some people left to pick up the pieces in that decimated biosphere. But we are already experiencing negative repercussions and have locked into worsening repercussions for decades to come. The longer we delay making serious changes, the uglier things will get. And many of the consequences will be effectively irreversible (like species depletion), while other consequences could take centuries to reverse even with advanced technologies in the future.
 
Oh, I'm sorry, but the comment about the world boiling over is in fact controversial. At worst, the worst global warming predicted, is no more than 4 degrees. That's a problem, but it isn't the planet "boiling over" and never will be.

As usual you exaggerate and take great liberty with what was said so here you have it again, maybe this time you will see Obama is saying IF and also of course it is NOT meant literally, it is a figurative flourish:

Obama-----"Ultimately, if you think about all the youth that everybody has mentioned here in Africa, if everybody is raising living standards to the point where everybody has got a car and everybody has got air conditioning, and everybody has got a big house, well, the planet will boil over -- unless we find new ways of producing energy. "
 
As usual you exaggerate and take great liberty with what was said so here you have it again, maybe this time you will see Obama is saying IF and also of course it is NOT meant literally, it is a figurative flourish:

Obama-----"Ultimately, if you think about all the youth that everybody has mentioned here in Africa, if everybody is raising living standards to the point where everybody has got a car and everybody has got air conditioning, and everybody has got a big house, well, the planet will boil over -- unless we find new ways of producing energy. "


Except that "if living standards get tothe point where everybody has got a car and everybody has got air conditioning and everybody has got a big house," the planet will NOT boil over. His hyperbole more than overstates the case.
 
Except that "if living standards get tothe point where everybody has got a car and everybody has got air conditioning and everybody has got a big house," the planet will NOT boil over. His hyperbole more than overstates the case.

You really are hopeless. And it is sad.
 
It was an eloquent turn of phrase that got the point across in a way that only a Fox Newser could fail to follow..... it's nice to have a president who, unlike his predecessor, doesn't humiliate this country every time he opens his mouth to speak in an impromptu way.

It's true that George W. Bush was not an eloquent off-the-cuff speaker. Neither was Harry Truman or Dwight Eisenhower. Neither, for that matter, is Barack Obama, stripped of his teleprompter. He may not humiliate us everytime he speaks, but increasingly people overseas aren't listening to him, so that doesn't matter (witness the unimpressive turnout for his recent speech in Germany, where he once had rock-star attendance).
Anyway, I agree it isn't certain that the warming is anthropogenic. That is, however, the belief of a clear majority of experts across the entire range of relevant fields of science, all around the world.

Even scientific consensus can be in error -- the worldwide consensus of geologists rejected continental drift until well into the early 1960s, even though the theory had been around for decades.

As such, it would be shamefully reckless to make policy choices based on anything other than a strong presumption that the expert consensus is correct, notwithstanding the fact that their theory must always, by its very nature, fall somewhere short of absolute certainty.

So, for example, FDR should have made earthquake plans based on the geologists' consensus that continents didn't move? It is a graver error to make huge policy changes based on an "if" no matter how many people believe in the if, than it is to make minor changes while waiting for a higher level of certainty -- particularly when we know the major changes will have a major and much more immediate impact than the problem they're designed to correct.

As for the idea that we have 100 years to deal with the problem, that depends on what you mean. Mankind won't be extinct if we've done nothing to deal with the problem in 100 years, if that's the extent of your point. There will still be some people left to pick up the pieces in that decimated biosphere. But we are already experiencing negative repercussions and have locked into worsening repercussions for decades to come.

Even you have acknowledged that we don't have a clear determination that the climate chane we're experiencing is anthropogenic -- so we don't know if the alleged negative repercussions stem from a human source. We also don't know if we can do anything about them, at this point, no matter whether their source is human or strictly natural. At this point, the earth isn't as warm as it was during the Medieval Warm Period. Do we need to exercise caution? Certainly. Is it a time for panic? Certainly not.[/quote]
 
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For some reason, the thread about Obama's "boil over" comments is closed, so here's my comment:

What's interesting isn't the video, which says nothing remotely controversial from a climate science perspective. Instead, what's interesting is the lock-step right-wing misinterpretation of the video. The actual line was:

"Ultimately, if you think about all the youth that everybody has mentioned here in Africa, if everybody is raising living standards to the point where everybody has got a car and everybody has got air conditioning, and everybody has got a big house, well, the planet will boil over -- unless we find new ways of producing energy. "

It's pretty damned clear. Yet right-wing loons have showed up in lock-step to insist Obama said Africans can't be allowed cars and air conditioning.... all because some Redstate blogger made that argument and then it was picked up by the usual braying head apparatchiks on the right, so that all the mindless dittoheads would fan out to sites like that to repeat that lie. You ought to be ashamed.

"Obama said Africans can't be allowed cars and air conditioning" That fits on a bumpersticker and a tweet. That's all rightwingers need to inflame their low-information base.
 
Even scientific consensus can be in error -- the worldwide consensus of geologists rejected continental drift until well into the early 1960s, even though the theory had been around for decades.

The convincing thing isn't how long the theory has been around, but rather how much has gone into it, over that time, and the trend of the consensus. I'm not sure any scientific question has ever been subject to the kind of intense scrutiny global warming theory has over the last few decades. We're not talking the equivalent of a few dozen working geologists working with woefully inadequate tools, as during the pre-plate-tectonics era. We're talking about thousands of researchers across dozens of specialties looking into the matter with highly advanced tools, for decades, and all of that forming a remarkably consistent picture. And we're talking about a trend where the consensus grows both stronger and broader over time. To make a valid analogy, you'd need a situation where some new theory got that kind of massive, diverse attention over decades, with gradually and consistently growing strength of consensus, only to turn out to be wrong. Continental drift doesn't cut it. That was a case of the slowness of a single field to adopt a new theory in the face of sparse evidence (and then adopting it once the evidence become overwhelming) -- it's just not terribly relevant.

It is a graver error to make huge policy changes based on an "if" no matter how many people believe in the if, than it is to make minor changes while waiting for a higher level of certainty

If we stuck to only minor changes while waiting for higher level of certainty, that would be a permanent state for issues like this, where there will ALWAYS be some level of doubt. That's a recipe for disaster in cases where dramatic action is needed.

Let's look at it in a smaller context. You go a doctor and he tells you that you have very high blood pressure, and you should quit smoking, because you're at high risk for a heart attack or stroke otherwise. So, you see another doctor. Turns out there's a consensus about this. In fact, you'd have to hunt far and wide to find one of the tiny handful of doctors who think smoking isn't a big risk factor for people in your situation. Still, rather than make the "grave error" of a huge change in your smoking policy, you decide to make minor changes while waiting for a higher level of certainty. You'll cut back from 40 cigarettes per day to 39. Surely, in a decade or two, doctors will have a clearer picture of exactly how important smoking is in blood pressure considerations, right?

Even you have acknowledged that we don't have a clear determination that the climate chane we're experiencing is anthropogenic -- so we don't know if the alleged negative repercussions stem from a human source.

What we know is that the vast majority of experts believe it's anthropogenic and that if we don't take major steps, the results will be terrible. If you choose to gamble the liveablility of our only planet on the hope that they're wrong, that's the very opposite of "conservative." It's reckless to the point of being pathological, like that nicotine addict who will rationalize his choice of continuing to smoke in the face of compelling expert advice.

At this point, the earth isn't as warm as it was during the Medieval Warm Period.

I realize this is a popular talking point in the anti-global-warming industry, but it's simply not true. It's based on localized European measures, not global ones.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...the-medieval-warm-period-than-they-are-today/
http://www.newscientist.com/article...d-with-vineyards-in-england.html#.UdSXEazgfpU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period
http://www.skepticalscience.com/medieval-warm-period.htm
http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch6s6-6.html

The thing to remember, whenever one of your right-wing climate "skeptic" sites feeds you that kind of propaganda is this: by the time they heard about some piece of evidence in the climate debate, the actual climate scientists had already been aware of it for a long, long time, and it's been factored into the consensus analysis already. The Medieval Warm Period isn't news to the IPCC, or the many national institutes of science that have echoed the IPCC statement of the consensus, nor to ANY of the thousands of climate experts who make up that consensus. It's common knowledge. Hell, even I'm aware of it, and I'm a rank amateur. When experts say they believe the Earth is warming quickly due to human activities and that we're heading for serious trouble if we don't do something major, they do that in full knowledge of the facts about the Medieval Warm Period.

To go back to the smoking analogy I made earlier, it's as if you tried to argue that smoking isn't a problem for your heart because Japanese people smoke a lot and have long life expectancies. The consensus on the problem smoking poses for the heart formed in the presence of the common knowledge of Japanese smoking and life expectancy, so pointing to that small component of the overall evidence picture as if it somehow overrides the consensus would be an act of hubristic foolishness. If that's a point against the smoking/heart-disease picture, it's a point that's radically outscored by all the other points, or the consensus wouldn't have formed. This isn't some new data-point. In the same way, if the Medieval Warm Period were a point against the global warming consensus, it's a point that's already been tallied and vastly overwhelmed by all the other points in the other direction. It's a data point that's been integrated into the consensus already. You might want to pull it out and give it an unjustified amount of weight to overwhelm all the rest, but that's for emotional, not rational reasons. You want the answer to be a certain thing, and so you weight the evidence in accordance with your desire.

A wise lay person accepts that the best we can hope to do on a complex scientific controversy like this is get a clear picture of where the experts are generally coming out -- a meta-analysis of the direction, strength, and breadth of the consensus. Then we set policy based on that. To think that we can add something to the debate through snippets of propaganda we picked up that cherry pick data is just absurdly egotistical. It's like "Gee, scientists, I know you have doctorates in this topic and have spent 50 hours per week for the past 20 years dedicating your life to studying it, while I've been occupied with other matters, but taking a quick glance at a conservative web-site I've become aware that it was warm for a while back in the Middle Ages, and I'm betting you didn't consider that." It's just hilarious, really.
 
The convincing thing isn't how long the theory has been around, but rather how much has gone into it, over that time, and the trend of the consensus.

And the trend of the consensus against continental drift had much going into it, over a 40 year period (minimum) and during that time, the trend was firmly against continental drift.

I'm not sure any scientific question has ever been subject to the kind of intense scrutiny global warming theory has over the last few decades.

I am sure, however, and what I see is not science, but a political campaign. When I was a child there was a similar political campaign involving global cooling -- a campaign now denied by those that are either too young or wish to deny it existed.


If we stuck to only minor changes while waiting for higher level of certainty, that would be a permanent state for issues like this, where there will ALWAYS be some level of doubt. That's a recipe for disaster in cases where dramatic action is needed
.

What happens if we take 'dramatic action" when it isn't needed? Are you willing to cripple the economy on an "if?


Let's look at it in a smaller context. You go a doctor and he tells you that you have very high blood pressure, and you should quit smoking, because you're at high risk for a heart attack or stroke otherwise. So, you see another doctor. Turns out there's a consensus about this.

Not a valid analogy. What's happening here is going to two doctors and both of them saying "you MIGHT have a problem.

What we know is that the vast majority of experts believe it's anthropogenic and that if we don't take major steps, the results will be terrible.

How terrible will it be if we take the major steps? What portions of the 21st century modern life are we supposed to give up? For most of the history of mankind, we lived in the dark, cold, and riddled with disease. Must we go there again?





I realize this is a popular talking point in the anti-global-warming industry, but it's simply not true. It's based on localized European measures, not global ones.

Except that your evidence is bull. There are signs of the MWP in ice cores from Antarctica. It was a global phenomena.



The thing to remember, whenever one of your right-wing climate "skeptic" sites feeds you that kind of propaganda is this: by the time they heard about some piece of evidence in the climate debate, the actual climate scientists had already been aware of it for a long, long time, and it's been factored into the consensus analysis already.

I don't go to right-wing websites. I merely remember the discussions of the MWP in my medieval history classes when I was in college, back before global warming was on anyone's radar (circa 1988).


To go back to the smoking analogy I made earlier, it's as if you tried to argue that smoking isn't a problem for your heart because Japanese people smoke a lot and have long life expectancies.

A better analogy is the French paradox -- fatty foods, low heart disease rates. Is fatty food a problem, or is there something else going on (at least one theory is that the French drink wine with their fatty foods, making them healthier).

In the same way, if the Medieval Warm Period were a point against the global warming consensus, it's a point that's already been tallied and vastly overwhelmed by all the other points in the other direction. It's a data point that's been integrated into the consensus already. You might want to pull it out and give it an unjustified amount of weight to overwhelm all the rest, but that's for emotional, not rational reasons. You want the answer to be a certain thing, and so you weight the evidence in accordance with your desire.

Which other points, and how have those points been garnered? I'm sorry, but I saw the global warming scientists making efforts to hide their raw data from FOIA requests a few years back. The essence of science is supposed to be that information is wide open to interpretation -- but not, apparently, if you're Michael Mann.

A wise lay person accepts that the best we can hope to do on a complex scientific controversy like this is get a clear picture of where the experts are generally coming out -- a meta-analysis of the direction, strength, and breadth of the consensus. Then we set policy based on that.

And that would lead to FDR not making earthquake plans because the continents don't move.
 
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