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The futility of Reason

Arkady

President
One of the most depressing things I ever read was an article demonstrating how very little facts mattered in forming people's opinions. Before that, I really believed that if I could just point people to a credible and clear enough set of facts, and present something that drew those into enough of a logically unassailable and engaging argument, I could change people's minds.

Back then, I figured my failure to change minds (other than, occasionally, my own, when my research convinced me that I'd started with the wrong assumption) was a failure on my part to explain the logic clearly enough or to make it snappy enough to hold people's attention. I kept trying, figuring that maybe eventually I'd find just the right analogy to break through the prejudice, or I'd eventually hone the structure of the argument to enough of an edge to cut through willful ignorance. I concluded that continued failures to bring people to the clearly rational conclusion must be my fault. I just wasn't very good at this yet.

However, after reading more about it, I came to realize that most people are simply intractable. They bend their intellects not to assessing new information and arguments, but instead to maintaining the walls of their ignorance and prejudice. When facts fail to fit, they work overtime to explain to themselves that the stats are fake, the facts are misreported, or that causation can never be rightly inferred.

See here:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_National_51116.pdf

As you can see, "Republicans claim by a 64/27 spread that unemployment has increased and by a 57/27 spread that the stock market has gone down" since Obama took office. In reality, unemployment has dropped from 7.8% to 4.9% and stock values have nearly tripled. So, it isn't even close.

How can the majority of Republicans have gotten things that dramatically wrong? How can all but 27% of them have missed the news? I don't think they did. Even entombed within the Fox News echo chamber, murmurs from the outside world slip in. They have doubtless heard that unemployment rates have fallen to lows not seen since before the Great Recession -- lows never once reached in the Reagan years. Doubtless they have heard repeated reports of stocks setting new all-time highs. But, I believe, they turn their mental energies to defending their prejudices against such inconvenient facts.

For example, they'll tell themselves the "real unemployment rate" is much higher, once you label labor-force dropouts as unemployed. Then they'll forego the obvious next step of figuring out what the "real unemployment rate" was before Obama, using the same standards, because subconsciously they realize that would lead them back to the same uncomfortable conclusion that unemployment is down sharply on Obama's watch. Only by allowing themselves an apples-to-oranges comparison of "real unemployment" today and official unemployment before Obama can the majority defend their prejudice that says surely things must have gotten worse under his leadership.

Similarly, with stocks they can tell themselves stock values aren't actually up, even when all the major indexes tell the tale of one of the most dramatic bull markets in history. They just say it doesn't count, because monetary policy isn't what they, personally, think it should have been. If money were as hard to come by as they'd like it to be, stocks wouldn't be up, therefore stocks are actually down.

How does one combat such insanity? I honestly don't know. Is it even possible? If prejudice is so deeply entrenched that the majority of Republicans can claim one of the biggest stock market run-ups ever was a time when the stock market fell, what hope is there that logic and education can ever find traction?
 
That's why I always call the GOP a cult. It's literally true. Facts do not matter to them. They have their GOP ideology, and that's that. The cult is never wrong. As with all cults, relentless brainwashing is required to constantly reinforce the cult's dogma, and that's where Fox Noise, GOP hate radio, and loony right wing websites come in.

Whether in politics, business or other areas, we can rest assured that bad decisions will be made if people have their facts wrong. It's the business of GOP propaganda ministers to make sure that their cultists have their facts wrong.

It's a national plague.
 
One of the most depressing things I ever read was an article demonstrating how very little facts mattered in forming people's opinions. Before that, I really believed that if I could just point people to a credible and clear enough set of facts, and present something that drew those into enough of a logically unassailable and engaging argument, I could change people's minds.

Back then, I figured my failure to change minds (other than, occasionally, my own, when my research convinced me that I'd started with the wrong assumption) was a failure on my part to explain the logic clearly enough or to make it snappy enough to hold people's attention. I kept trying, figuring that maybe eventually I'd find just the right analogy to break through the prejudice, or I'd eventually hone the structure of the argument to enough of an edge to cut through willful ignorance. I concluded that continued failures to bring people to the clearly rational conclusion must be my fault. I just wasn't very good at this yet.

However, after reading more about it, I came to realize that most people are simply intractable. They bend their intellects not to assessing new information and arguments, but instead to maintaining the walls of their ignorance and prejudice. When facts fail to fit, they work overtime to explain to themselves that the stats are fake, the facts are misreported, or that causation can never be rightly inferred.

See here:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_National_51116.pdf

As you can see, "Republicans claim by a 64/27 spread that unemployment has increased and by a 57/27 spread that the stock market has gone down" since Obama took office. In reality, unemployment has dropped from 7.8% to 4.9% and stock values have nearly tripled. So, it isn't even close.

How can the majority of Republicans have gotten things that dramatically wrong? How can all but 27% of them have missed the news? I don't think they did. Even entombed within the Fox News echo chamber, murmurs from the outside world slip in. They have doubtless heard that unemployment rates have fallen to lows not seen since before the Great Recession -- lows never once reached in the Reagan years. Doubtless they have heard repeated reports of stocks setting new all-time highs. But, I believe, they turn their mental energies to defending their prejudices against such inconvenient facts.

For example, they'll tell themselves the "real unemployment rate" is much higher, once you label labor-force dropouts as unemployed. Then they'll forego the obvious next step of figuring out what the "real unemployment rate" was before Obama, using the same standards, because subconsciously they realize that would lead them back to the same uncomfortable conclusion that unemployment is down sharply on Obama's watch. Only by allowing themselves an apples-to-oranges comparison of "real unemployment" today and official unemployment before Obama can the majority defend their prejudice that says surely things must have gotten worse under his leadership.

Similarly, with stocks they can tell themselves stock values aren't actually up, even when all the major indexes tell the tale of one of the most dramatic bull markets in history. They just say it doesn't count, because monetary policy isn't what they, personally, think it should have been. If money were as hard to come by as they'd like it to be, stocks wouldn't be up, therefore stocks are actually down.

How does one combat such insanity? I honestly don't know. Is it even possible? If prejudice is so deeply entrenched that the majority of Republicans can claim one of the biggest stock market run-ups ever was a time when the stock market fell, what hope is there that logic and education can ever find traction?

I wouldn't say that people are as intractable as you think. The problem is that there are facts all over the place, and people tend to pick and choose the facts which best fit their beliefs. You and I are not immune. Most of our debates end up being the facts you trust vs. the facts I trust. More often than not, they are at complete odds with each other. It's not that I don't know your facts, it's that I don't trust them.
 
I wouldn't say that people are as intractable as you think. The problem is that there are facts all over the place, and people tend to pick and choose the facts which best fit their beliefs. You and I are not immune. Most of our debates end up being the facts you trust vs. the facts I trust. More often than not, they are at complete odds with each other. It's not that I don't know your facts, it's that I don't trust them.

Not trusting facts, true, actual facts,...means one is intractable.
 
Not trusting facts, true, actual facts,...means one is intractable.

Neither you nor I can say we know what the 'true, actual facts" are. We have sources that we trust and that we mistrust.

Your statement that only you have the true, actual facts is exactly what makes you so intractable.
 
A great example is the poll in the TP where 57% of Republicans believe stocks have gone down under Obama.

Only profound brainwashing can explain such bizarre GOP beliefs

That's just too damn bizarre for understanding.

Then we get the folks that say the FTSE has recovered yet cannot understand that the true value is affected by the currency valuation.
 
Neither you nor I can say we know what the 'true, actual facts" are. We have sources that we trust and that we mistrust.

Your statement that only you have the true, actual facts is exactly what makes you so intractable.

I made no such statement...and that's a fact.

See...that's your failure. Facts are facts. Known and true, indisputable. That is the definition of the word.

You speak of opinion and analysis, not of fact.
 
Neither you nor I can say we know what the 'true, actual facts" are. We have sources that we trust and that we mistrust.

Your statement that only you have the true, actual facts is exactly what makes you so intractable.

Have the stock markets under Obama gone down?
 
I made no such statement...and that's a fact.

See...that's your failure. Facts are facts. Known and true, indisputable. That is the definition of the word.

You speak of opinion and analysis, not of fact.

I notice that with wingers. Their aversion to facts is so strong that the blur the distinction between facts and opinion. Some even think there is no difference between the two - that all facts are a matter of opinion.

Very strange.
 
I made no such statement...and that's a fact.

See...that's your failure. Facts are facts. Known and true, indisputable. That is the definition of the word.

You speak of opinion and analysis, not of fact.

Your statement is implied. How do you know that I am not the one with the true and actual facts?

Unless you're actually involved, all you have are sources.
 
I notice that with wingers. Their aversion to facts is so strong that the blur the distinction between facts and opinion. Some even think there is no difference between the two - that all facts are a matter of opinion.

Very strange.

Exactly. He says we cannot know the true facts. Yet, we have constant reportage, from ALL sources, that say the markets are up...way up, over the past 8 years. I can say, with 100% certainty, that it is a true fact that the markets are up in the Obama era.
 
Exactly. He says we cannot know the true facts. Yet, we have constant reportage, from ALL sources, that say the markets are up...way up, over the past 8 years. I can say, with 100% certainty, that it is a true fact that the markets are up in the Obama era.

In wingerworld...

That's your opinion.

;-)
 
Your statement is implied. How do you know that I am not the one with the true and actual facts?

Unless you're actually involved, all you have are sources.

No...your analysis...is fantasy. Facts are indisputable. Again...it is the very definition of the word.

In base 10, 2+2=4. Do you have a different fact?
 
One of the most depressing things I ever read was an article demonstrating how very little facts mattered in forming people's opinions. Before that, I really believed that if I could just point people to a credible and clear enough set of facts, and present something that drew those into enough of a logically unassailable and engaging argument, I could change people's minds.

Back then, I figured my failure to change minds (other than, occasionally, my own, when my research convinced me that I'd started with the wrong assumption) was a failure on my part to explain the logic clearly enough or to make it snappy enough to hold people's attention. I kept trying, figuring that maybe eventually I'd find just the right analogy to break through the prejudice, or I'd eventually hone the structure of the argument to enough of an edge to cut through willful ignorance. I concluded that continued failures to bring people to the clearly rational conclusion must be my fault. I just wasn't very good at this yet.

However, after reading more about it, I came to realize that most people are simply intractable. They bend their intellects not to assessing new information and arguments, but instead to maintaining the walls of their ignorance and prejudice. When facts fail to fit, they work overtime to explain to themselves that the stats are fake, the facts are misreported, or that causation can never be rightly inferred.

See here:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_National_51116.pdf

As you can see, "Republicans claim by a 64/27 spread that unemployment has increased and by a 57/27 spread that the stock market has gone down" since Obama took office. In reality, unemployment has dropped from 7.8% to 4.9% and stock values have nearly tripled. So, it isn't even close.

How can the majority of Republicans have gotten things that dramatically wrong? How can all but 27% of them have missed the news? I don't think they did. Even entombed within the Fox News echo chamber, murmurs from the outside world slip in. They have doubtless heard that unemployment rates have fallen to lows not seen since before the Great Recession -- lows never once reached in the Reagan years. Doubtless they have heard repeated reports of stocks setting new all-time highs. But, I believe, they turn their mental energies to defending their prejudices against such inconvenient facts.

For example, they'll tell themselves the "real unemployment rate" is much higher, once you label labor-force dropouts as unemployed. Then they'll forego the obvious next step of figuring out what the "real unemployment rate" was before Obama, using the same standards, because subconsciously they realize that would lead them back to the same uncomfortable conclusion that unemployment is down sharply on Obama's watch. Only by allowing themselves an apples-to-oranges comparison of "real unemployment" today and official unemployment before Obama can the majority defend their prejudice that says surely things must have gotten worse under his leadership.

Similarly, with stocks they can tell themselves stock values aren't actually up, even when all the major indexes tell the tale of one of the most dramatic bull markets in history. They just say it doesn't count, because monetary policy isn't what they, personally, think it should have been. If money were as hard to come by as they'd like it to be, stocks wouldn't be up, therefore stocks are actually down.

How does one combat such insanity? I honestly don't know. Is it even possible? If prejudice is so deeply entrenched that the majority of Republicans can claim one of the biggest stock market run-ups ever was a time when the stock market fell, what hope is there that logic and education can ever find traction?

I completely understand your frustration. I have the same issues when it comes to liberals and Obamacare. Despite over a dozen exchanges going bankrupt, the vast majority of increased in insured coming from welfare (Medicaid), despite premiums going up $4,000 on average instead of down $2,500 on average as promised, despite deductible skyrocketing at 7 times the rate of inflation, despite millions losing their policies and doctors, there are actually some neanderthals roaming the Earth declaring that Obamacare is a success.

Indeed I feel your pain.
 
No...your analysis...is fantasy. Facts are indisputable. Again...it is the very definition of the word.

In base 10, 2+2=4. Do you have a different fact?

You keep showing your intractability. Of course 2+2=4. That's not in dispute. Neither is the fact that the American people were lied too for 5 weeks after the Benghazi incident. Yet liberals want to say that we just didn't know "the facts" at the time.

We don't know "the facts". We only know what we're told. If we did know the facts, there wouldn't be a dispute. But we dont, so we have to rely on our sources.
 
You keep showing your intractability. Of course 2+2=4. That's not in dispute. Neither is the fact that the American people were lied too for 5 weeks after the Benghazi incident. Yet liberals want to say that we just didn't know "the facts" at the time.

We don't know "the facts". We only know what we're told. If we did know the facts, there wouldn't be a dispute. But we dont, so we have to rely on our sources.

Who told what "Benghazi lie" for 5 weeks?

A quote now. Not a GOP "rewrite" of what someone said.
 
You keep showing your intractability. Of course 2+2=4. That's not in dispute. Neither is the fact that the American people were lied too for 5 weeks after the Benghazi incident. Yet liberals want to say that we just didn't know "the facts" at the time.

We don't know "the facts". We only know what we're told. If we did know the facts, there wouldn't be a dispute. But we dont, so we have to rely on our sources.

I appreciate your attempts to distract from the discussion of facts by clouding it with, once again, analysis.

Not in dispute. Remember those words, as they are crucial to the concept of fact.
 
I completely understand your frustration. I have the same issues when it comes to liberals and Obamacare. Despite over a dozen exchanges going bankrupt, the vast majority of increased in insured coming from welfare (Medicaid), despite premiums going up $4,000 on average instead of down $2,500 on average as promised, despite deductible skyrocketing at 7 times the rate of inflation, despite millions losing their policies and doctors, there are actually some neanderthals roaming the Earth declaring that Obamacare is a success.

Indeed I feel your pain.

Whether the ACA is a success is a matter of opinion.

To reach a truly informed opinion, a rational, intelligent, honest person would consider all pertinent facts - both good and bad.

And then we have your winger approach - spew certain "factoids" fed to you by the right wing echo chamber, ignore all positive traits of the ACA, and declare it a failure.
 
I appreciate your attempts to distract from the discussion of facts by clouding it with, once again, analysis.

Not in dispute. Remember those words, as they are crucial to the concept of fact.

If you think you have the facts, then you don't know what a fact is.
 
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