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Trump's Foreign Policy

Arkady

President
Trump likes to pretend he opposed the Iraq War. In reality, he supported it until it was clear it was going poorly then changed his stance. But, from the perspective of someone disgusted by neo-conservatism, it's tempting to hope that even though he hasn't acknowledged his past mistake, maybe he learned from it. He has said a number of encouraging anti-imperial things during the campaign, suggesting that perhaps he'll be less eager to play the global policeman.

I'm skeptical, though. I'm reminded of the vibe I got from GW Bush in 2000. People tend to forget this in light of the disaster that played out over the next eight years, but Bush actually campaigned AGAINST Clinton's interventionism. That was back when the GOP publicly worried about "mission fatigue," criticized Clinton for "nation building," and insisted we should never involve ourselves abroad without a clear "exit strategy." At a presidential debate, Bush pointed out that how other nations respond to the US would depend on how we conduct our foreign policy. If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us, but if we're a humble nation, they'll respect us.

It was an implicit critique of the wearying nation-building operations of Clinton in places like Haiti and Somalia, as well as a suggestion that Bush wouldn't be a neoconservative. It should have been music to a lefty's ears, but I was sure it was just talk -- that once in office Bush foreign policy would be anything but humble. His key advisors were old cold warriors and the most bellicose members of the prior regimes, including a bunch of PNAC thugs. I just couldn't picture foreign policy humility from that bloodthirsty gang. Sure enough by year two he was pushing hard for us to start a war on Iraq, in defiance of international law, and the majority of nations, and the majority in the Security Council, and even the majority of our allies. He arrogantly thought he knew best how to deal with the non-existent WMDs.

That's what I think we're getting from Trump -- empty rhetoric suggesting a less interventionist foreign policy, that will actually give way to dangerously aggressive use of the military. He is a famously thin-skinned narcissist who engages in constant Twitter wars over petty disputes. Maybe he'll be more circumspect when it comes to real wars, but for a guy so obsessed with the appearance of "strength" and "winning," I can definitely picture him using our military as an extension of his ego. Can't you?

He has apparently been asking why he can't just nuke our adversaries. He has also called for torture much worse than waterboarding, and for murdering the children of suspected terrorists -- two things that will certainly inspire more anti-American attacks, meaning an escalating cycle of violence. He has also repeatedly called for seizing middle eastern oil fields, saying that the victor should get the spoils. Going back to that very open form of colonialism would, obviously, require a massive US presence to defend those seizures against the people who actually live there -- something more along the lines of the old British Empire than the kind of subtle corporate neo-colonialism we've mastered in recent decades, which doesn't require that same military presence to preserve it.

It's unlikely that "Trump’s shifting, temperamental geopolitical approach would survive a collision with reality." And that's what the right-wing National Review has to say about it! From the perspective of a centrist or liberal, the guy is even more alarming.
 
Trump likes to pretend he opposed the Iraq War. In reality, he supported it until it was clear it was going poorly then changed his stance. But, from the perspective of someone disgusted by neo-conservatism, it's tempting to hope that even though he hasn't acknowledged his past mistake, maybe he learned from it. He has said a number of encouraging anti-imperial things during the campaign, suggesting that perhaps he'll be less eager to play the global policeman.

I'm skeptical, though. I'm reminded of the vibe I got from GW Bush in 2000. People tend to forget this in light of the disaster that played out over the next eight years, but Bush actually campaigned AGAINST Clinton's interventionism. That was back when the GOP publicly worried about "mission fatigue," criticized Clinton for "nation building," and insisted we should never involve ourselves abroad without a clear "exit strategy." At a presidential debate, Bush pointed out that how other nations respond to the US would depend on how we conduct our foreign policy. If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us, but if we're a humble nation, they'll respect us.

It was an implicit critique of the wearying nation-building operations of Clinton in places like Haiti and Somalia, as well as a suggestion that Bush wouldn't be a neoconservative. It should have been music to a lefty's ears, but I was sure it was just talk -- that once in office Bush foreign policy would be anything but humble. His key advisors were old cold warriors and the most bellicose members of the prior regimes, including a bunch of PNAC thugs. I just couldn't picture foreign policy humility from that bloodthirsty gang. Sure enough by year two he was pushing hard for us to start a war on Iraq, in defiance of international law, and the majority of nations, and the majority in the Security Council, and even the majority of our allies. He arrogantly thought he knew best how to deal with the non-existent WMDs.

That's what I think we're getting from Trump -- empty rhetoric suggesting a less interventionist foreign policy, that will actually give way to dangerously aggressive use of the military. He is a famously thin-skinned narcissist who engages in constant Twitter wars over petty disputes. Maybe he'll be more circumspect when it comes to real wars, but for a guy so obsessed with the appearance of "strength" and "winning," I can definitely picture him using our military as an extension of his ego. Can't you?

He has apparently been asking why he can't just nuke our adversaries. He has also called for torture much worse than waterboarding, and for murdering the children of suspected terrorists -- two things that will certainly inspire more anti-American attacks, meaning an escalating cycle of violence. He has also repeatedly called for seizing middle eastern oil fields, saying that the victor should get the spoils. Going back to that very open form of colonialism would, obviously, require a massive US presence to defend those seizures against the people who actually live there -- something more along the lines of the old British Empire than the kind of subtle corporate neo-colonialism we've mastered in recent decades, which doesn't require that same military presence to preserve it.

It's unlikely that "Trump’s shifting, temperamental geopolitical approach would survive a collision with reality." And that's what the right-wing National Review has to say about it! From the perspective of a centrist or liberal, the guy is even more alarming.
Seems at the time, Trump was acting like a Democrat.

Now he's moved on from his pro-Hillary stance.
Seems he's evolving faster than this board's Democrats.
 
Trump likes to pretend he opposed the Iraq War. In reality, he supported it until it was clear it was going poorly then changed his stance. But, from the perspective of someone disgusted by neo-conservatism, it's tempting to hope that even though he hasn't acknowledged his past mistake, maybe he learned from it. He has said a number of encouraging anti-imperial things during the campaign, suggesting that perhaps he'll be less eager to play the global policeman.

I'm skeptical, though. I'm reminded of the vibe I got from GW Bush in 2000. People tend to forget this in light of the disaster that played out over the next eight years, but Bush actually campaigned AGAINST Clinton's interventionism. That was back when the GOP publicly worried about "mission fatigue," criticized Clinton for "nation building," and insisted we should never involve ourselves abroad without a clear "exit strategy." At a presidential debate, Bush pointed out that how other nations respond to the US would depend on how we conduct our foreign policy. If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us, but if we're a humble nation, they'll respect us.

It was an implicit critique of the wearying nation-building operations of Clinton in places like Haiti and Somalia, as well as a suggestion that Bush wouldn't be a neoconservative. It should have been music to a lefty's ears, but I was sure it was just talk -- that once in office Bush foreign policy would be anything but humble. His key advisors were old cold warriors and the most bellicose members of the prior regimes, including a bunch of PNAC thugs. I just couldn't picture foreign policy humility from that bloodthirsty gang. Sure enough by year two he was pushing hard for us to start a war on Iraq, in defiance of international law, and the majority of nations, and the majority in the Security Council, and even the majority of our allies. He arrogantly thought he knew best how to deal with the non-existent WMDs.

That's what I think we're getting from Trump -- empty rhetoric suggesting a less interventionist foreign policy, that will actually give way to dangerously aggressive use of the military. He is a famously thin-skinned narcissist who engages in constant Twitter wars over petty disputes. Maybe he'll be more circumspect when it comes to real wars, but for a guy so obsessed with the appearance of "strength" and "winning," I can definitely picture him using our military as an extension of his ego. Can't you?

He has apparently been asking why he can't just nuke our adversaries. He has also called for torture much worse than waterboarding, and for murdering the children of suspected terrorists -- two things that will certainly inspire more anti-American attacks, meaning an escalating cycle of violence. He has also repeatedly called for seizing middle eastern oil fields, saying that the victor should get the spoils. Going back to that very open form of colonialism would, obviously, require a massive US presence to defend those seizures against the people who actually live there -- something more along the lines of the old British Empire than the kind of subtle corporate neo-colonialism we've mastered in recent decades, which doesn't require that same military presence to preserve it.

It's unlikely that "Trump’s shifting, temperamental geopolitical approach would survive a collision with reality." And that's what the right-wing National Review has to say about it! From the perspective of a centrist or liberal, the guy is even more alarming.

You're supporting the candidate who voted for the war.
 
Trump likes to pretend he opposed the Iraq War. In reality, he supported it until it was clear it was going poorly then changed his stance.

Which would make him like every Democrat.
 
Which would make him like every Democrat.
No. This is a Trump thing. Most Democrats fall into one of three categories:

(1) People on the record supporting the Iraq war, or at least on the record having voted to give Bush discretion about whether to use force in Iraq. These Democrats now either argue they made the right choice at the time, or they admit they made the wrong choice and try to explain the thinking that went into their error (Hillary Clinton falls into that last category).

(2) People on the record opposing the Iraq war, and who didn't vote to given Bush that authorization. These Democrats brag about their foresight in having resisted that huge error. (Obama falls into that last category)

(3) People who aren't on the record either way, who never had a chance to vote on the Bush authorization. For the most part, they claim they opposed it at the time, which may or may not be true.

Trump is in a fourth category:

(4) People who are on the record having supported the war, but who nonetheless tell the gullible that they opposed it. If you can find an equivalent Democrat, I'm all ears.
 
so to sum up - Trump and Hillary have exactly the same opinion and history on Iraq.

wow - even more reasons to hate trump, eh?
 
No. This is a Trump thing. Most Democrats fall into one of three categories:

(1) People on the record supporting the Iraq war, or at least on the record having voted to give Bush discretion about whether to use force in Iraq. These Democrats now either argue they made the right choice at the time, or they admit they made the wrong choice and try to explain the thinking that went into their error (Hillary Clinton falls into that last category).

(2) People on the record opposing the Iraq war, and who didn't vote to given Bush that authorization. These Democrats brag about their foresight in having resisted that huge error. (Obama falls into that last category)

(3) People who aren't on the record either way, who never had a chance to vote on the Bush authorization. For the most part, they claim they opposed it at the time, which may or may not be true.

Trump is in a fourth category:

(4) People who are on the record having supported the war, but who nonetheless tell the gullible that they opposed it. If you can find an equivalent Democrat, I'm all ears.

Once again, you're supporting the candidate who voted for the war.
 
She's not in the forum. If she shows up, I'll be sure to ask her. Meanwhile, I'm asking you. Why are you so afraid to answer? Are you under the impression there was a vote on the question of whether to go to war?


Hillary Clinton says there was, and that she regrets it. That's good enough for me. Certainly better than the lie you're offering.
 
Seems at the time, Trump was acting like a Democrat.

Now he's moved on from his pro-Hillary stance.
Seems he's evolving faster than this board's Democrats.

"why can't we just use our nukes?" asks Trump.
how do you answer Trump's question, Dino?
 
Hillary Clinton says there was, and that she regrets it. That's good enough for me.

So, just to be clear, your rule is that if Clinton says something, you believe it to be true? Somehow I doubt that. Regardless, nowhere in there does Clinton say there was a vote on whether to go to war (the question I asked). She wasn't asked about voting for a war, but rather about voting for authorization. She was asked whether, when she voted for the authorization, she believed Hussein had nukes. She goes on to make it clear that she didn't see that as a vote to go to war, but instead as a vote that would give Bush the leverage he needed to get inspections done:

MATTHEWS: You never had evidence of nuclear weapons.

CLINTON: No, but that was because the inspections program had not been completed, and where I stood, I believed George W. Bush when he said, "We are going to let the inspectors finish the job, this vote will give me the leverage," he claimed, "to make sure that happens." Read Hans Blix's book.

MATTHEWS: Why did you trust Dubya?

CLINTON: I thought that using diplomacy, which is what it seemed to me he was offering, made a lot of sense.

MATTHEWS: Did he seem the diplomatic type, Dubya?

CLINTON: He seemed to be someone who in my opinion, at least rhetorically, that speech he gave in Cincinnati, was aimed at saying< "We're going to let the inspectors finish. Now, he didn't let the inspectors finish. And that's where I made a mistake.
​
I don't mean to defend Clinton here. It was tragically foolish to trust Bush. He clearly didn't want weapons inspectors to find anything that would disrupt the march to war that he had a tremendous hard-on for. That should have been obvious to anyone. And that's why I wasn't the least bit surprised when later, as re-admitted inspectors started to debunk the WMDs claims, rather than doing the sane thing and putting on the brakes to reassess the intelligence, Bush stepped on the accelerator and drove us into war without even a UN vote, because he knew any delay would mean the facts unraveling the case for war. Clinton should have understood that about Bush, and didn't.

But, obviously, she didn't claim she voted for war. So, what makes you think there was a vote for war?

Certainly better than the lie you're offering.
What lie? I asked a question. This isn't actually a controversial topic. The wording of the measure they voted on is widely available:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107publ243/pdf/PLAW-107publ243.pdf

Once you wade through the whereas clauses to the effective language, it says: "The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate..." There are various caveats to that (he's only supposed to use force after first determining diplomatic and other peaceful means won't work, and that it won't interfere with the war on terror), but that's the heart of it -- it's a vote to authorize the president to use force if he thinks its necessary and appropriate. If it had been a vote for war then, obviously, we'd have been at war with Iraq on October 12, 2002, with Bush having no discretion in the matter -- he'd have been Constitutionally obligated to wage that war, as commander in chief, from that moment, even if he thought it was unnecessary or inappropriate. Instead, five months passed before Bush exercised his discretion and decided to start the war.
 
Trump likes to pretend he opposed the Iraq War. In reality, he supported it until it was clear it was going poorly then changed his stance. But, from the perspective of someone disgusted by neo-conservatism, it's tempting to hope that even though he hasn't acknowledged his past mistake, maybe he learned from it. He has said a number of encouraging anti-imperial things during the campaign, suggesting that perhaps he'll be less eager to play the global policeman.

I'm skeptical, though. I'm reminded of the vibe I got from GW Bush in 2000. People tend to forget this in light of the disaster that played out over the next eight years, but Bush actually campaigned AGAINST Clinton's interventionism. That was back when the GOP publicly worried about "mission fatigue," criticized Clinton for "nation building," and insisted we should never involve ourselves abroad without a clear "exit strategy." At a presidential debate, Bush pointed out that how other nations respond to the US would depend on how we conduct our foreign policy. If we're an arrogant nation, they'll resent us, but if we're a humble nation, they'll respect us.

It was an implicit critique of the wearying nation-building operations of Clinton in places like Haiti and Somalia, as well as a suggestion that Bush wouldn't be a neoconservative. It should have been music to a lefty's ears, but I was sure it was just talk -- that once in office Bush foreign policy would be anything but humble. His key advisors were old cold warriors and the most bellicose members of the prior regimes, including a bunch of PNAC thugs. I just couldn't picture foreign policy humility from that bloodthirsty gang. Sure enough by year two he was pushing hard for us to start a war on Iraq, in defiance of international law, and the majority of nations, and the majority in the Security Council, and even the majority of our allies. He arrogantly thought he knew best how to deal with the non-existent WMDs.

That's what I think we're getting from Trump -- empty rhetoric suggesting a less interventionist foreign policy, that will actually give way to dangerously aggressive use of the military. He is a famously thin-skinned narcissist who engages in constant Twitter wars over petty disputes. Maybe he'll be more circumspect when it comes to real wars, but for a guy so obsessed with the appearance of "strength" and "winning," I can definitely picture him using our military as an extension of his ego. Can't you?

He has apparently been asking why he can't just nuke our adversaries. He has also called for torture much worse than waterboarding, and for murdering the children of suspected terrorists -- two things that will certainly inspire more anti-American attacks, meaning an escalating cycle of violence. He has also repeatedly called for seizing middle eastern oil fields, saying that the victor should get the spoils. Going back to that very open form of colonialism would, obviously, require a massive US presence to defend those seizures against the people who actually live there -- something more along the lines of the old British Empire than the kind of subtle corporate neo-colonialism we've mastered in recent decades, which doesn't require that same military presence to preserve it.

It's unlikely that "Trump’s shifting, temperamental geopolitical approach would survive a collision with reality." And that's what the right-wing National Review has to say about it! From the perspective of a centrist or liberal, the guy is even more alarming.

You seem to have links to everything else here....why no link proving Trump was for the Iraq war?
 
What makes you think that?
Well, you said that if Clinton said it, that's good enough for you. You didn't cite any reason you'd give her more credence on this one than others, so what's the reason for that?

Anyway, hopefully you've spotted your error now about the Iraq War resolution. You're welcome.
 

So, in 2002, a year before the war started, he said he "guessed" he supported it.
Hillary also supported it in 2002....then later was against it. So what's the difference??
 
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