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What's the best way to decrease abortion?

Arkady

President
In this country, the debate on abortion almost always takes the form of a debate on prohibition. The action is around efforts to criminalize types of abortions or to outlaw abortions generally. I believe working to decrease abortion through prohibition is unlikely to have much of a positive result for at least four reasons:

(1) The GOP has made this one of their centerpiece efforts for almost forty years now, with little to show for it. It's unlikely that they'll be accomplishing much more than whittling around the edges of abortion rights any time in the foreseeable future.

(2) Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned, it would most likely be in a way that allowed states to decide abortion laws on their own. As long as abortion remains legal in liberal states, it will be exceedingly easy for someone to travel to get an abortion in a free state, meaning little actual decline in the abortion rate (if, for example, you're a woman in Indiana who wants to terminate her pregnancy, you're not going to carry to term simply because you can't be bothered with the hour long drive to a legal clinic across the Illinois border).

(3) Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned in an unlikely way, creating a "right to life" for fetuses, abortion would remain legal on demand in most advanced nations. That's not going to be quite as easy as jumping in the car and driving over a state border, but the majority of women who want legal abortions are still going to be able to get them pretty easily and cheaply. For the huge portion of our population that's a quick drive from Canada, it's not much harder than crossing into another state (it's about a seven hour drive from New York City to Canada, for example). For the rest, it's a quick and relatively cheap flight to a Canadian city (or Mexico City, or most of the countries of Western Europe). Although some extremely poor women may be deterred from getting a legal abortion by the cost of such travel, the expected impact would be minimal, since the cost of the travel is, in any event, likely to be significantly less than the cost of the pregnancy and birth. With a little flexibility and bargain hunting, $300 will get you a round trip ticket from most places in the US to somewhere with legal abortion.

(4) Aside from the medical tourism option to get around abortion prohibition, there will also be smuggled abortion pills. This isn't like 1973, when abortion was last illegal. There are now cheap, highly effective, and fairly safe abortion pills, legally sold in many countries. Even if a woman is unable or unwilling to travel for her abortion, it won't be hard for most to terminate their pregnancies anyway, at least early in the pregnancy, simply by getting their hands on these pills, which would undoubtedly become widely available under the table from women's rights activists.

Because of those things, I think abortion prohibition is unlikely to result in more than a tiny reduction in the abortion rate in this country. It may OBSCURE the abortion rate, by encouraging women to get it done secretly abroad, or through the black market, but if your purpose isn't to pretty up the stats, but rather to cut down on the number of terminated fetuses, it's not a promising strategy.

The good news is that we have every reason to think we can greatly cut down on the abortion rate without outlawing abortion. The last data I saw, the abortion rate in the US was 22.9 (abortions per 1000 fertile-aged woman, per year) versus just 6.5 in the Netherlands. The other wealthy liberal democracies of Western Europe also have much lower abortion rates than the US, despite abortion access that, if anything, is greater than ours (since price is less of an issue in their health systems). Cutting our abortion rate by half or even as much as almost three quarters is FAR beyond anything we could realistically hope to do just through an ineffective plan like prohibition. So, rather than wasting all sorts of political capital on the shaky strategy of trying to push through abortion prohibition, wouldn't it make more sense to spend it on trying to emulate whatever it is about these lower-abortion-rate countries that allow them to achieve those low rates?

If it isn't prohibition that's got the abortion rate so low in the Netherlands, what is it? Well, it's certainly not puritanism. Anyone who has ever been to Amsterdam can vouch for that -- the Netherlands is one of the most sexually liberal countries in the world. So, apparently, there are other factors involved in fewer unplanned pregnancies happening, and more of the unplanned pregnancies that do happen being carried to term. What could those factors be?

I have some ideas. One, the Netherlands doesn't do "abstinence only" education. They have frank sex-ed that focuses on preventing STDs and pregnancies through the use of condoms. They also have universal healthcare that covers prescription contraception, which again means fewer unwanted pregnancies. Their sex-positive culture probably also cuts down a little on the shame of an unplanned pregnancy, making women who end up in that unfortunate position less likely to sneak off an have an abortion just to keep people from knowing about it. Given the high obesity rate in the US, and the tendency for obesity to make people less fertile, it's surprising that a country like the Netherlands would have fewer unwanted pregnancies, but the stats say that's true, so there's got to be some reason.

The Dutch also have all sorts of social spending programs that make bringing a baby into the world less of a frightening proposition for those who do get pregnant unexpectedly. For example the Dutch get paid maternity leave for 16 weeks, by law, which makes it less financially daunting to have a baby, especially for a single mom who might not have other means of support. After that, they have heavily subsidized childcare (an hourly allowance to pay much or all of the price of a daycare), in addition to free medical care for the kid. That's in addition to a generous allowance to cover part of the other costs for raising a kid:

http://www.expatfocus.com/expatriate-netherlands-holland-maternity-childcare

In addition, the Dutch have some interesting post-natal care plans (like having an assistant come to your house in the week after the birth to help with everything from breastfeeding advice to watching your other kids). When women feel like the government has their back if they have a baby, it shouldn't be surprising that fewer of them choose to terminate their pregnancies than in the US, where the overarching message is that you're on your own.

So, are there things liberals and conservatives can cooperate on in decreasing the abortion rate? Or does this have to take the form of fighting to have the government punish women who choose to terminate their pregnancies? I think it comes down to whether your main goal is to decrease the number of fetuses that get killed, or whether it's to increase the number of women who get punished.
 
Makes sense, but I get the feeling that Pro Lifers aren't interested in just reducing the number of abortions, but eliminating them completely.

The fact that that is pretty much an impossibility, as you pointed out, will be lost on them.
 
The example we have of an open society with very low abortion rates is the Netherlands. Do you think the Netherlands is teaching a different moral code than us? If so, what moral code is it, and how do we emulate it?
 
It's an absolute impossibility. Abortions have always existed, way back into prehistoric eras. They certainly existed in the US during the era of abortion prohibition. And they'll exist if we outlaw abortion again.... and almost certainly in MUCH higher numbers than in the last period of prohibition, because of the changes that have happened since then (the abortion pill, un-regulatable information about abortion on the Internet, cheap air travel, and abortion legalization in many other countries). So, what any reasonable person who opposes abortion has to talk about is how best to REDUCE abortion, not how to eliminate it.
 
Arkady, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, especially sex education. This article is a must-read:http://yourlife.usatoday.com/parenting-family/teen-ya/story/2012-01-19/CDC-Many-teens-moms-didnt-think-they-would-get-pregnant/52673760/1

In a survey of thousands of teenage mothers who had unintended pregnancies, about a third said they didn't use birth control because they didn't believe they could get pregnant. (Emphasis added).

I do disagree with you, though, with the implication of this statement:"The Dutch also have all sorts of social spending programs that make bringing a baby into the world less of a frightening proposition for those who do get pregnant unexpectedly." The U.S. also has lots of social spending programs and that isn't making much of a difference in the abortion rate. We have child credits. child care credits, EITC payments, WIC, etc. The tax code is heavily weighed in favor of parents against single people.
 
What makes you think that? I provided four reasons that I thought efforts to criminalize abortion are likely to be ineffective at actually decrease the number of abortions. What do you think of those four things? For example, even if you somehow succeed where the Republicans have failed for almost 40 years and overturn Roe v. Wade, and even if you replace it with some new broad reading of the Constitution that makes abortion illegal in every state, what's to prevent a woman who wants to terminate a pregnancy from just shelling out $300 to get it taken care of across the border in Canada? Or popping a smuggled pill?
 
I thought about the way the tax code favors parents over single people -- and I'd bet that results in our abortion rate being lower than it would be without those tax rules. But I don't think our tax benefits and our social spending in the area comes close to what you'd see, in terms of aid and regulations, in places like the Netherlands. $500 to $5000 worth of refundable tax credits is nice, but how does it stack up against 16 weeks of paid maternity leave, and fully-paid world-class healthcare for children (and not just the children of the ultra-poor, mind you), along with allowances for raising children, and child-care subsidies?

When I have more time, I'd like to parse some of these numbers, to get a feel for whether I'm right in understand that the overall subsidization of child-rearing is greater somewhere like the Netherlands. all things considered.
 
Overturning Roe v. Wade is not criminalizing it.

If people are genuinely interested in reducing the number of abortions they will criminalize it.

What's to prevent people from going to Canada? Nothing.

What will prevent popping a smuggled pill? Laws against smuggling.

Laws are hardly ever created to actually do something with everybody. Usually they only change the behavior of people on the margin. In the world of abortion there is a number of people who are on the margin, that is, they are on the fence. Criminalizing abortion and making it difficult to have one will bring those people in the margin off the fence. That translates to reducing the number. You didn't ask what will eliminate abortion. You asked what will reduce the number. The answer is criminalizing it.
 
3) What's to stop an Irish girl from going to England to get an abortion? Answer: The Irish Sea. It's not an impenetrable barrier with greased daggers sticking out and concertina wire on top but it's a barrier.

What is the abortion rate in Ireland? Pretty low I imagine. It's illegal there (those TROGLODYTES!). Women HAVE to cross the water to get an abortion. Could this have anything to do with the fact that 80% of them are Catholic and they mean it?

Oh HO! There you go! I'm raising that evil specter of religion again and how it can provide a real solution to your problem. Are you really interested in solving your problem? Especially since your solutions have done nothing to reduce the number and everything to increase it. Are you ready to change your mind about your approach and try something different? Or are you seeking to have your mind changed by the echo chamber?

The only birth control that works 100% as advertised when practiced is abstinence. No unwanted pregnancy, no unwanted abortion. It works for Ireland. Will it work for Arkady?
 
In this country, the debate on abortion almost always takes the form of a debate on prohibition. The action is around efforts to criminalize types of abortions or to outlaw abortions generally. I believe working to decrease abortion through prohibition is unlikely to have much of a positive result for at least four reasons:

(1) The GOP has made this one of their centerpiece efforts for almost forty years now, with little to show for it. It's unlikely that they'll be accomplishing much more than whittling around the edges of abortion rights any time in the foreseeable future.

(2) Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned, it would most likely be in a way that allowed states to decide abortion laws on their own. As long as abortion remains legal in liberal states, it will be exceedingly easy for someone to travel to get an abortion in a free state, meaning little actual decline in the abortion rate (if, for example, you're a woman in Indiana who wants to terminate her pregnancy, you're not going to carry to term simply because you can't be bothered with the hour long drive to a legal clinic across the Illinois border).

(3) Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned in an unlikely way, creating a "right to life" for fetuses, abortion would remain legal on demand in most advanced nations. That's not going to be quite as easy as jumping in the car and driving over a state border, but the majority of women who want legal abortions are still going to be able to get them pretty easily and cheaply. For the huge portion of our population that's a quick drive from Canada, it's not much harder than crossing into another state (it's about a seven hour drive from New York City to Canada, for example). For the rest, it's a quick and relatively cheap flight to a Canadian city (or Mexico City, or most of the countries of Western Europe). Although some extremely poor women may be deterred from getting a legal abortion by the cost of such travel, the expected impact would be minimal, since the cost of the travel is, in any event, likely to be significantly less than the cost of the pregnancy and birth. With a little flexibility and bargain hunting, $300 will get you a round trip ticket from most places in the US to somewhere with legal abortion.

(4) Aside from the medical tourism option to get around abortion prohibition, there will also be smuggled abortion pills. This isn't like 1973, when abortion was last illegal. There are now cheap, highly effective, and fairly safe abortion pills, legally sold in many countries. Even if a woman is unable or unwilling to travel for her abortion, it won't be hard for most to terminate their pregnancies anyway, at least early in the pregnancy, simply by getting their hands on these pills, which would undoubtedly become widely available under the table from women's rights activists.

Because of those things, I think abortion prohibition is unlikely to result in more than a tiny reduction in the abortion rate in this country. It may OBSCURE the abortion rate, by encouraging women to get it done secretly abroad, or through the black market, but if your purpose isn't to pretty up the stats, but rather to cut down on the number of terminated fetuses, it's not a promising strategy.

The good news is that we have every reason to think we can greatly cut down on the abortion rate without outlawing abortion. The last data I saw, the abortion rate in the US was 22.9 (abortions per 1000 fertile-aged woman, per year) versus just 6.5 in the Netherlands. The other wealthy liberal democracies of Western Europe also have much lower abortion rates than the US, despite abortion access that, if anything, is greater than ours (since price is less of an issue in their health systems). Cutting our abortion rate by half or even as much as almost three quarters is FAR beyond anything we could realistically hope to do just through an ineffective plan like prohibition. So, rather than wasting all sorts of political capital on the shaky strategy of trying to push through abortion prohibition, wouldn't it make more sense to spend it on trying to emulate whatever it is about these lower-abortion-rate countries that allow them to achieve those low rates?

If it isn't prohibition that's got the abortion rate so low in the Netherlands, what is it? Well, it's certainly not puritanism. Anyone who has ever been to Amsterdam can vouch for that -- the Netherlands is one of the most sexually liberal countries in the world. So, apparently, there are other factors involved in fewer unplanned pregnancies happening, and more of the unplanned pregnancies that do happen being carried to term. What could those factors be?

I have some ideas. One, the Netherlands doesn't do "abstinence only" education. They have frank sex-ed that focuses on preventing STDs and pregnancies through the use of condoms. They also have universal healthcare that covers prescription contraception, which again means fewer unwanted pregnancies. Their sex-positive culture probably also cuts down a little on the shame of an unplanned pregnancy, making women who end up in that unfortunate position less likely to sneak off an have an abortion just to keep people from knowing about it. Given the high obesity rate in the US, and the tendency for obesity to make people less fertile, it's surprising that a country like the Netherlands would have fewer unwanted pregnancies, but the stats say that's true, so there's got to be some reason.

The Dutch also have all sorts of social spending programs that make bringing a baby into the world less of a frightening proposition for those who do get pregnant unexpectedly. For example the Dutch get paid maternity leave for 16 weeks, by law, which makes it less financially daunting to have a baby, especially for a single mom who might not have other means of support. After that, they have heavily subsidized childcare (an hourly allowance to pay much or all of the price of a daycare), in addition to free medical care for the kid. That's in addition to a generous allowance to cover part of the other costs for raising a kid:

http://www.expatfocus.com/expatriate-netherlands-holland-maternity-childcare

In addition, the Dutch have some interesting post-natal care plans (like having an assistant come to your house in the week after the birth to help with everything from breastfeeding advice to watching your other kids). When women feel like the government has their back if they have a baby, it shouldn't be surprising that fewer of them choose to terminate their pregnancies than in the US, where the overarching message is that you're on your own.

So, are there things liberals and conservatives can cooperate on in decreasing the abortion rate? Or does this have to take the form of fighting to have the government punish women who choose to terminate their pregnancies? I think it comes down to whether your main goal is to decrease the number of fetuses that get killed, or whether it's to increase the number of women who get punished.

Excellent points Arkady, but this is america, and the righwingnuts would rather see a baby aborted or abused and neglected then to have any sort of socialist element in government.
 
Maybe if ALL women knew that there are ways to prevent pregnancy in the first place and if they somehow were compelled (by their own sense of responsibility) to take preventative action or make sure the man involved was taking preventative action.......... abortions could be decreased hugely.

Taking a little self responsibility would go a long way. Very few pregnancies are caused by malfunction of birth control devices or rape.
 
Why on earth would you want to?

I've never understood the right's desire to end abortion. The fact is that abortion is simply another means to cull undesirables. After all, do we really want people who would have an abortion raising children? I would suggest no.

So in my world, abortion should be 'on demand' and free. After all, if you're too stupid to use birth control, or abstain in the absence of it...you're far too stupid to have a kid.

Thus, only those prepared and willing to raise children would be saddled with that responsibility. And those without the means and mental capacity wouldn't saddle us with hundreds of thousands of kids that need to be raised by the state.
 
I've been saying this for a long time, CB. If a woman can kill her unborn child, she does not deserve to be a mother. Period. That is the reason I am in favor of legal abortion for the first trimester. After that, or soon after that (around 22 weeks gestation), it becomes infanticide and should be regarded as murder of a person.

I've never understood the right's desire to end abortion. The fact is that abortion is simply another means to cull undesirables. After all, do we really want people who would have an abortion raising children? I would suggest no.

So in my world, abortion should be 'on demand' and free. After all, if you're too stupid to use birth control, or abstain in the absence of it...you're far too stupid to have a kid.

Thus, only those prepared and willing to raise children would be saddled with that responsibility. And those without the means and mental capacity wouldn't saddle us with hundreds of thousands of kids that need to be raised by the state.
 
Thats thepoint Jen. if abortion was easy and readily available, you wouldnt have late term episodes. Scumbags would get one juat as soon as the found out they were pregnant. In my mind, free contraceptiin and cheap abortion is a public service along the lines of clean drinking water.
 
I thought about the way the tax code favors parents over single people -- and I'd bet that results in our abortion rate being lower than it would be without those tax rules. But I don't think our tax benefits and our social spending in the area comes close to what you'd see, in terms of aid and regulations, in places like the Netherlands. $500 to $5000 worth of refundable tax credits is nice, but how does it stack up against 16 weeks of paid maternity leave, and fully-paid world-class healthcare for children (and not just the children of the ultra-poor, mind you), along with allowances for raising children, and child-care subsidies?

When I have more time, I'd like to parse some of these numbers, to get a feel for whether I'm right in understand that the overall subsidization of child-rearing is greater somewhere like the Netherlands. all things considered.

There's more money for than even what I mentioned--education through k-12 is generally supported by taxpayers. But, no, I agree w you, I don't think we spend as much as the European countries on children. But--and this might be tangential to the question-- I don't think it's fair to tax a non-parent like myself so much to subsidize children of people who make as much or (usually) more than I do.

Actually, I just saw an article that said teenage births were going down, which is a great thing. http://news.yahoo.com/number-us-teen-births-lowest-70-years-063755600.html (Although it's still higher than most other developed countries).
 
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