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A viable alternative to the Affordable Care Act.

barbarap

Council Member
Well, the waiting for services in Canada is intolerable.

Nurses and doctors in France are always going on strike because frankly they are not being paid what they are worth. It is abuse of the worst kind being not only unfair but quite simply wrong.

And the reason we pay too much for healthcare is because its true cost is hidden from the consumer whether its an insurance company doing it or a single payer system. Get over your fear of having to pay for most of your healthcare out of pocket and leaving catastrophe to insurance coverage. Learn to shop for you healthcare its better than being assigned it.

Wrong again...the time people wait for services in other countries is no different than in the United States. But, many nay Sayers would like you to believe otherwise.
Doctors and nurses in the United States strike for the same reason. The nurses in my local hospital are in strike right now.

Paying for health care out of pocket simply won't work. We had that system decades ago, didn't work then and won't work now.

People who are barely making it will spend their money on food and shelter and not have the money to set aside for a health care crisis. And others will simply not make health care needs a priority thinking they are healthy and nothing will happen to them so they don't need to set money aside. Are you willing to let your child play in the sandbox with the kid who wasn't vaccinated because his parents had to pay the rent and couldn't afford the vaccination? Or, maybe you want to eat at that restaurant where the chef has TB but, because he makes minimum wage, he can't afford to set money aside for his health care needs.

Very interesting, though, how when I provide evidence that your initial statement is false, you follow up with more lame right wing, scare tactic type talking points which are also false.

Looks like you are on a roll!!
 

Figjam

Mayor
I think you should mull the idea over in your head some more and overcome your fear of paying for most healthcare services out of your own pocket. You already pay the dentist, cosmetic surgeon, lasik doctor out of pocket and they have good businesses going. Many more doctors opting out of Obamacare are going all cash on the barrel head and succeeding making as much as they did before and at a much lower price.

In the U.S. it costs $8-10K for a hospital childbirth whereas in Mozambique, including a cesarean, its under $20. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/birth-of-a-surgeon/introduction/747/ I'm not saying we need to have Mozambique like healthcare system but we need something far more reasonable.

When you break an arm you could be billed $1800-2800. Your insurance company will pay $900-1200 for you while the poor uninsured sap will be billed closer to $2800. Its a sick system and your fear of having to shop for healthcare will only promulgate it. A better system would get that broken arm fixed for $400-800.
I do not pay a dime to the dentist or for optometry.

...do you know the average cost for a woman to have a baby? The charge for an uncomplicated cesarean section was about $15,800 in 2008. An uncomplicated vaginal birth cost about $9,600.

...medical care is NOT like buying donuts. When you are sick you don't shop around - you go to someone who you know and who can treat you. Practicing medicine is an art, not a linear science - your knowledge of the physician and their knowledge of YOU all aids in the success of the treatment.

...markets do some things well but not everything...
 
Friends of mine in Canada disagree with you. They like their system just fine. For people who make less than $50k they are far more satisfied with their system than people here in the US.
Its likely your friends are relatively healthy and youngish. Have them blow a knee or hip and then talk to them. You need to do more research on the Canadian system and the capitalist changes they are trying to re-introduce.
 

middleview

President
Supporting Member
Its likely your friends are relatively healthy and youngish. Have them blow a knee or hip and then talk to them. You need to do more research on the Canadian system and the capitalist changes they are trying to re-introduce.
Actually the people I talked to are in their 30s and early 40s and have families. Emergencies are seen immediately.
 
Actually the people I talked to are in their 30s and early 40s and have families. Emergencies are seen immediately.
google - canadian health services waiting lines
Wrong again...the time people wait for services in other countries is no different than in the United States. But, many nay Sayers would like you to believe otherwise.
There are significant wait time differences.

What is interesting is that the U.S. spends more per capita in healthcare than most other nations (as in education, criminal justice, military). Why isn't healthcare working? Because when the system insulates the consumer from the true price of things, be it government (single payer) or insurance companies, demand outstrips supply. The only way to rationalize the long standing hyper-inflation found in the healthcare industry is to empower the consumer.

Doctors and nurses in the United States strike for the same reason. The nurses in my local hospital are in strike right now.
The only striking healthcare professionals I can think of here in the United States(a couple years back) were nurses in California - most socialist state in the union. Enough said?

Paying for health care out of pocket simply won't work. We had that system decades ago, didn't work then and won't work now.
It didn't work back then? Who says so? Are you comparing apples and oranges?

People who are barely making it will spend their money on food and shelter and not have the money to set aside for a health care crisis.
That's why you's subsidize poor people on medicaid.

And others will simply not make health care needs a priority thinking they are healthy and nothing will happen to them so they don't need to set money aside.
Really, giving a chance to set aside income completely tax free won't get the peace-niks to try in defund the military industrial complex by taking some money off the table? The money employers may provide doesn't count? Their family or friends who did set aside the money won't give them some? What asking family or friends for money is a bad kind of begging versus anonymously begging your fellow citizens in a single payer system?

Are you willing to let your child play in the sandbox with the kid who wasn't vaccinated because his parents had to pay the rent and couldn't afford the vaccination?
Why so melodramatic with the examples? Again, if you are that poor you would qualify for medicaid. I imagine Medicaid today does cover vaccines.

Or, maybe you want to eat at that restaurant where the chef has TB but, because he makes minimum wage, he can't afford to set money aside for his health care needs.
Really, this is how you debate!?!? Chef's making minimum wage? At Mickey D's?

Very interesting, though, how when I provide evidence that your initial statement is false, you follow up with more lame right wing, scare tactic type talking points which are also false.
What evidence have you provided for what?

Looks like you are on a roll!!
No, it looks like you are the one looking to roll.... society that is. Obamacare is theft on the front side and on the back side. It is awful policy intended to make the 50% who pay income taxes pay for those who don't in the most inefficient manner possible.

The great irony is that on this mostly liberal forum I'm being ridiculed while at the same time on conservative forums I am also being to a degree ridiculed. It is evident that liberals and conservatives have the same kind of congenital intellectual disorder of some sort.

Here you go same original post different forums -

[url]http://www.teapartynation.com/forum/topics/a-viable-alternative-to-the-affordable-healthcare-act[/URL]

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/political-discussion-and-debate/a-viable-alternative-to-the-affordable-care-act/

There are others I could link.
 
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I do not pay a dime to the dentist or for optometry.

...do you know the average cost for a woman to have a baby? The charge for an uncomplicated cesarean section was about $15,800 in 2008. An uncomplicated vaginal birth cost about $9,600.

...medical care is NOT like buying donuts. When you are sick you don't shop around - you go to someone who you know and who can treat you. Practicing medicine is an art, not a linear science - your knowledge of the physician and their knowledge of YOU all aids in the success of the treatment.

...markets do some things well but not everything...
Like I said get over your fear. In the end we are all dead anyways (lol).

P.S. What does disturb me is that I originally brought up the example of childbirth and its cost here in the U.S. and compared it to a very successful third world program and you seemed to have missed the point I was making. Essentially, that medicine is not magic. That it is in some respects merely veterinary science and should be cheaper. Why do you price quote me childbirth?
 
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TaiPan

Council Member
THE NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PLAN AS IT SHOULD BE.

To save the quality of our healthcare and expand coverage we need to change our insurance paradigm. No longer should insurance cover regular, urgent, or mild chronic care. The only insurance people should be able to purchase should be emergency and catastrophic coverage. People should be able to pay out of pocket for much of the healthcare they receive. To do so we need a new Health Savings Account (H.S.A.) paradigm. People should be able to put a dollar into an H.S.A. completely tax free. In other words if I made $50,000 this fiscal year and put $8,000 into my H.S.A., then my income taxes should start being calculated at $42,000. Whatever my employer contributes to my H.S.A. should also be completely tax free and that H.S.A. should be a lifetime right.

In exchange for that tax right I should NOT be able to spend that $8,000 on any other thing other than actual healthcare or health insurance coverage (i.e. emergency/catastrophic insurance). That $8,000 is now in a new and separate marketplace – one reserved for healthcare related purchases only – never to be taken out for any other reason than for medical need. It would be a debit card system with HSA funds only that would accumulate over the years. This solves our national healthcare problems period.

THE DETAILS

Truly, the devil is in the details and so it should be stated that Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA should continue to exist but changed to reflect the new healthcare paradigm. The government should subsidize H.S.A. accounts for the poor, the retired, and veterans while providing for the emergency/catastrophic healthcare insurance (and services). VA hospitals should not be closed.

Insurance premiums should be legally tied to preventative medical care such as regular checkups, blood tests, measured fitness scores…. If you have checkups, blood tests, good fitness scores for your age group, and/or a good track record for managing your existing ailments, then your premiums should be less than for those who do not have better life long health practices.

Monies in the healthcare market (i.e. in Health Saving Accounts) should be freely transferable from one HSA account to another HSA account without any kind of penalty. This would allow families to take care of each others’ healthcare costs and expedite securely charity donations. As long as the money is spent in the healthcare market everybody will benefit from this provision.

All healthcare providers should be required to post all healthcare costs on the internet for the purposes to enable shopping for healthcare services. The difference in healthcare services will then reflect the quality of care being provided. This is one benefit of shopping for services. The other benefit to shopping for healthcare is that fraud will drop drastically when the shopper’s own finite allowance for healthcare is on the line.

Today the U.S. subsidizes the healthcare of other advanced nations such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and countries Europe. Our drugs cost less in those countries than they do here. In Switzerland the government mandates their drug manufacturing industry to charge less than cost and are then needing to charge those outside of Switzerland much more than cost plus profit. Why are we subsidizing socialized medicine in these countries? Enough is enough.

The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) needs to be repealed. Physicians once again need to be given their constitutional rights back to create and run practices as ongoing business concerns. Businesses like dentistry, cosmetic surgery, and lasik eye surgery have generally not been paid for by health insurance companies and they are yet thriving businesses. Freeing the entire medical field and putting purchasing choices in the hands of consumers will increase the numbers covered and increase the quality of care.

Tax free Health Savings Accounts are the ultimate in healthcare transportability plans period. They cross state lines without any problem whatsoever and do not infringe on privacy rights the government would get rid of.

For every one hundred new cases of people with pre-existing conditions (every fiscal year) the insurance industry should be required to enroll 70 of them into one of their plans. Insurance companies will then compete via price for these patients/clients with pre-existing conditions. They will be looking and competing for the least sick of these individuals. The remaining 30 of 100 should be then placed on some Medicaid program tailored for their needs and circumstances.

If someone earns $10 million and puts $5 million into his or her Health Saving Account tax free, that is fine. That money can’t be spent on anything else but healthcare, will be used instead of others’ tax money, and will drive medical discoveries. Steve Jobs’ medical issues were paid for by him and any new discoveries will eventually be shared by all and at a lower cost.

Health discoveries earned in part or in whole on the public dime (at the State or Federal level) that lead to new or better healthcare products should earn their fair share of revenue that should be funneled into the Medicaid-Medicare-VA system. If a discovery was 50% funded by government, then government should earn 50% of the profits for as long as a patent is held.

Taxing medical devices to lower healthcare prices and increase coverage is an oxymoron that needs to be repealed and I guess has been but needs to be permanently taken off the table as viable idea.

A new, licensed profession of Healthcare Advisor should be established to advocate for and help citizens navigate through their healthcare decisions should they decide they such help.

I, the undersigned citizen, support this alternative and petition for the repeal of the Affordable Care Act.

Signature: Date:
Address:

Please sign and send to your Federal representatives. Ask your friends and family to do so too.

Are you just nuts or were you on drugs when you wrote this ? Is isn't half-baked, it hasn't even touched the oven!

Nothing more than schemes by republican pols to rape the barely existent healthcare system in the US today in favor of Big Pharma and Big Insurance. In other words, screw the indigent who most need it in favor of lining the pockets of those who least need it. When you become human post on this board again, Right now your origin is in doubt, and I don;t mean your birth certificate. You are nothing but a toadying shill for the Tea Party group.

taipan
 

TaiPan

Council Member
Maybe we should just get rid of health insurers.
Bad idea, but keep them regulated at the federal level and get rid of all these self serving state insurance commissioners. Ex insurance salesman most of them, they are really going to regulate themselves and their friends.
 

MaryAnne

Governor
We have homeowners insurance, should we get rid of that too. Insurance is for catastrophic occurrences in life. Insurers are needed.

Homeowners Insurance is about a building. Health Insurance is your health and life. You can replace a building, not your life.

My opinion? I think you are a paid huckster against the Health care bill. I am surprised Brent let you stay.
 

ElGringo

Mayor
We have homeowners insurance, should we get rid of that too. Insurance is for catastrophic occurrences in life. Insurers are needed.
Two points to make on this:

1. Buying a home is voluntary. The insurance you initially carry isn't for the homeowner, it's for the creditor...they want to protect their investment.

2. I agree with you on insurance being for unusual, catastrophic occurrences. Insurance was never meant to cover the scope that it's being asked to right now as far as the medical field is concerned...all the more reason to get rid of it.
 

ElGringo

Mayor
Bad idea, but keep them regulated at the federal level and get rid of all these self serving state insurance commissioners. Ex insurance salesman most of them, they are really going to regulate themselves and their friends.
Why is this a bad idea? They don't actually fund anything, they don't provide any actual health care, and the added bureaucracy they introduce into the process adds to the cost. Of what use are they?
 
Are you just nuts or were you on drugs when you wrote this ? Is isn't half-baked, it hasn't even touched the oven!

Nothing more than schemes by republican pols to rape the barely existent healthcare system in the US today in favor of Big Pharma and Big Insurance. In other words, screw the indigent who most need it in favor of lining the pockets of those who least need it. When you become human post on this board again, Right now your origin is in doubt, and I don;t mean your birth certificate. You are nothing but a toadying shill for the Tea Party group.

taipan
Have you been successfully in life indulging in ad hominem attacks? Does it make your point?
 
Bad idea, but keep them regulated at the federal level and get rid of all these self serving state insurance commissioners. Ex insurance salesman most of them, they are really going to regulate themselves and their friends.
I'm not necessarily a fan of insurance commissioners, but I don't quite understand the point your attack on them makes? And who is Mary Anne to be so viscerally proud of your attacks on others?
 
Homeowners Insurance is about a building. Health Insurance is your health and life. You can replace a building, not your life.

My opinion? I think you are a paid huckster against the Health care bill. I am surprised Brent let you stay.
So Brent should have banned my account? Exactly why is that? Because the conservative political forum I've linked to have this same identical posts and I'm being lambasted there too?

http://www.teapartynation.com/forum/topics/a-viable-alternative-to-the-affordable-healthcare-act

http://conservativepoliticalforum.c...iable-alternative-to-the-affordable-care-act/
 
All that ",Cash on the barrel head," means they treat only the wealthy.

So much for the Hippocratic oath.
During the debate over obamacare and even today more and more doctors are giving up on insurance, medicare, and medicaid and only taking cash. They've stopped the paperwork overhead are charging less and making as much as before when they took insurance and government monies. Google it.
 

Bluedog

Mayor
THE NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PLAN AS IT SHOULD BE.

To save the quality of our healthcare and expand coverage we need to change our insurance paradigm. No longer should insurance cover regular, urgent, or mild chronic care. The only insurance people should be able to purchase should be emergency and catastrophic coverage. People should be able to pay out of pocket for much of the healthcare they receive. To do so we need a new Health Savings Account (H.S.A.) paradigm. People should be able to put a dollar into an H.S.A. completely tax free. In other words if I made $50,000 this fiscal year and put $8,000 into my H.S.A., then my income taxes should start being calculated at $42,000. Whatever my employer contributes to my H.S.A. should also be completely tax free and that H.S.A. should be a lifetime right.

In exchange for that tax right I should NOT be able to spend that $8,000 on any other thing other than actual healthcare or health insurance coverage (i.e. emergency/catastrophic insurance). That $8,000 is now in a new and separate marketplace – one reserved for healthcare related purchases only – never to be taken out for any other reason than for medical need. It would be a debit card system with HSA funds only that would accumulate over the years. This solves our national healthcare problems period.

THE DETAILS

Truly, the devil is in the details and so it should be stated that Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA should continue to exist but changed to reflect the new healthcare paradigm. The government should subsidize H.S.A. accounts for the poor, the retired, and veterans while providing for the emergency/catastrophic healthcare insurance (and services). VA hospitals should not be closed.

Insurance premiums should be legally tied to preventative medical care such as regular checkups, blood tests, measured fitness scores…. If you have checkups, blood tests, good fitness scores for your age group, and/or a good track record for managing your existing ailments, then your premiums should be less than for those who do not have better life long health practices.

Monies in the healthcare market (i.e. in Health Saving Accounts) should be freely transferable from one HSA account to another HSA account without any kind of penalty. This would allow families to take care of each others’ healthcare costs and expedite securely charity donations. As long as the money is spent in the healthcare market everybody will benefit from this provision.

All healthcare providers should be required to post all healthcare costs on the internet for the purposes to enable shopping for healthcare services. The difference in healthcare services will then reflect the quality of care being provided. This is one benefit of shopping for services. The other benefit to shopping for healthcare is that fraud will drop drastically when the shopper’s own finite allowance for healthcare is on the line.

Today the U.S. subsidizes the healthcare of other advanced nations such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada and countries Europe. Our drugs cost less in those countries than they do here. In Switzerland the government mandates their drug manufacturing industry to charge less than cost and are then needing to charge those outside of Switzerland much more than cost plus profit. Why are we subsidizing socialized medicine in these countries? Enough is enough.

The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) needs to be repealed. Physicians once again need to be given their constitutional rights back to create and run practices as ongoing business concerns. Businesses like dentistry, cosmetic surgery, and lasik eye surgery have generally not been paid for by health insurance companies and they are yet thriving businesses. Freeing the entire medical field and putting purchasing choices in the hands of consumers will increase the numbers covered and increase the quality of care.

Tax free Health Savings Accounts are the ultimate in healthcare transportability plans period. They cross state lines without any problem whatsoever and do not infringe on privacy rights the government would get rid of.

For every one hundred new cases of people with pre-existing conditions (every fiscal year) the insurance industry should be required to enroll 70 of them into one of their plans. Insurance companies will then compete via price for these patients/clients with pre-existing conditions. They will be looking and competing for the least sick of these individuals. The remaining 30 of 100 should be then placed on some Medicaid program tailored for their needs and circumstances.

If someone earns $10 million and puts $5 million into his or her Health Saving Account tax free, that is fine. That money can’t be spent on anything else but healthcare, will be used instead of others’ tax money, and will drive medical discoveries. Steve Jobs’ medical issues were paid for by him and any new discoveries will eventually be shared by all and at a lower cost.

Health discoveries earned in part or in whole on the public dime (at the State or Federal level) that lead to new or better healthcare products should earn their fair share of revenue that should be funneled into the Medicaid-Medicare-VA system. If a discovery was 50% funded by government, then government should earn 50% of the profits for as long as a patent is held.

Taxing medical devices to lower healthcare prices and increase coverage is an oxymoron that needs to be repealed and I guess has been but needs to be permanently taken off the table as viable idea.

A new, licensed profession of Healthcare Advisor should be established to advocate for and help citizens navigate through their healthcare decisions should they decide they such help.

I, the undersigned citizen, support this alternative and petition for the repeal of the Affordable Care Act.

Signature: Date:
Address:

Please sign and send to your Federal representatives. Ask your friends and family to do so too.
I do like the premise.
 
Two points to make on this:

1. Buying a home is voluntary. The insurance you initially carry isn't for the homeowner, it's for the creditor...they want to protect their investment.

2. I agree with you on insurance being for unusual, catastrophic occurrences. Insurance was never meant to cover the scope that it's being asked to right now as far as the medical field is concerned...all the more reason to get rid of it.
1. Up until obamacare buying health insurance was voluntary too.

2. You can wish in one hand and have shit in the other as far as single payer goes.

Abortion in Roe v. Wade was largely determined on the right to privacy; exactly where did that right to privacy go when obamacare came along?
 
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