Gender weirdness.

[Arkady]

I keep looping back to the question of what it means to say a biological man is a woman (or vice versa). I don't grasp the idea, because it involves the existence of a thing called "gender" that is separate from biology and sexuality, and I have no personal experience with that. Biologically, I fit about as neatly as possible within the category of a male. I also fit comfortably within the category of a heterosexual. But, aside from biology and sexuality, am I a man? What does that even mean?

I certainly think of myself as biologically male and heterosexual, but aside from that, I'm not even sure what it means to ask if I identify as a man. There are many things about my social role that fit within the stereotypical role of men. But some that don't. Online, people occasionally mistake me for a woman (reading "Arkady" as "Arklady"). Generally, I don't even bother to correct this, since it doesn't matter. Within the context of a forum, neither my biology nor my sexuality matters. What "gender" do I have, outside of those things?

Perhaps I am simply "gender-free," when it comes to a definition of that term beyond biology and sexuality. I don't particularly identify with men or with women, any more than I identify on the basis of ancestry or zodiac sign.

This video helped me think more clearly about this:

The woman who made the video says that she doesn't have "gender" and she also talks about how, when she was younger, she thought gender wasn't really a thing, and thought that those who spoke about being "mis-gendered" were just attention-seeking. Now she reasons that if someone were to go to all the trouble of transitioning to a different gender, it must mean something very real to that person, beyond just seeking attention.

Perhaps this is a clue to my own confusion. Maybe I just don't have "gender" and so, since I assume that other people are mostly like me, I assume gender isn't really a thing, aside from the basic facts of biology and sexuality. But, maybe I'm just unusual. Or maybe those who have gender are unusual, but, either way, gender can be a real thing, separate from biology and sexuality, without me having it.

Interesting.

 

[marvin martian]

Are you setting us up for an announcement about your "transition"?

 

[as seen on tv]

i dont care how clever your makeup artist is, or how expensive your lingerie is.

if you didn't have your "junk" amputated, stay out of my restroom please.

 

[Barbella]

I keep looping back to the question of what it means to say a biological man is a woman (or vice versa). I don't grasp the idea, because it involves the existence of a thing called "gender" that is separate from biology and sexuality, and I have no personal experience with that. Biologically, I fit about as neatly as possible within the category of a male. I also fit comfortably within the category of a heterosexual. But, aside from biology and sexuality, am I a man? What does that even mean?

I certainly think of myself as biologically male and heterosexual, but aside from that, I'm not even sure what it means to ask if I identify as a man. There are many things about my social role that fit within the stereotypical role of men. But some that don't. Online, people occasionally mistake me for a woman (reading "Arkady" as "Arklady"). Generally, I don't even bother to correct this, since it doesn't matter. Within the context of a forum, neither my biology nor my sexuality matters. What "gender" do I have, outside of those things?

Perhaps I am simply "gender-free," when it comes to a definition of that term beyond biology and sexuality. I don't particularly identify with men or with women, any more than I identify on the basis of ancestry or zodiac sign.

This video helped me think more clearly about this:

The woman who made the video says that she doesn't have "gender" and she also talks about how, when she was younger, she thought gender wasn't really a thing, and thought that those who spoke about being "mis-gendered" were just attention-seeking. Now she reasons that if someone were to go to all the trouble of transitioning to a different gender, it must mean something very real to that person, beyond just seeking attention.

Perhaps this is a clue to my own confusion. Maybe I just don't have "gender" and so, since I assume that other people are mostly like me, I assume gender isn't really a thing, aside from the basic facts of biology and sexuality. But, maybe I'm just unusual. Or maybe those who have gender are unusual, but, either way, gender can be a real thing, separate from biology and sexuality, without me having it.

Interesting.

Rather than complicating the simple fact that some people are males with penises who manufacture sperm that can fertilize eggs in females with uteri, and some people are females with vaginas who receive said sperm from males, and who can carry the resulting fetuses around in their uteri for 9 1/2 months...

don't overthink it. Just accept and enjoy it.

Black IS black, and white IS white. Except when it's not. Then it's gray or eggshell, or anything in between...

 

[Lukey]

Trust me, it's YOU who is "unusual..."

 

[Drumcollie]

i dont care how clever your makeup artist is, or how expensive your lingerie is.

if you didn't have your "junk" amputated, stay out of my restroom please.

I disagree...just stay out.....if I cut off your arm...do you go away...so if I cutoff your junk...you don't go away...you are still the same little whiney democratic who hates it's self.

Thinking has two ways...to enter the woman's restroom you need to think like a woman also...and that is a very high definition form of thinking and very complex.

 

[Jen]

I keep looping back to the question of what it means to say a biological man is a woman (or vice versa). I don't grasp the idea, because it involves the existence of a thing called "gender" that is separate from biology and sexuality, and I have no personal experience with that. Biologically, I fit about as neatly as possible within the category of a male. I also fit comfortably within the category of a heterosexual. But, aside from biology and sexuality, am I a man? What does that even mean?

I certainly think of myself as biologically male and heterosexual, but aside from that, I'm not even sure what it means to ask if I identify as a man. There are many things about my social role that fit within the stereotypical role of men. But some that don't. Online, people occasionally mistake me for a woman (reading "Arkady" as "Arklady"). Generally, I don't even bother to correct this, since it doesn't matter. Within the context of a forum, neither my biology nor my sexuality matters. What "gender" do I have, outside of those things?

Perhaps I am simply "gender-free," when it comes to a definition of that term beyond biology and sexuality. I don't particularly identify with men or with women, any more than I identify on the basis of ancestry or zodiac sign.

This video helped me think more clearly about this:

The woman who made the video says that she doesn't have "gender" and she also talks about how, when she was younger, she thought gender wasn't really a thing, and thought that those who spoke about being "mis-gendered" were just attention-seeking. Now she reasons that if someone were to go to all the trouble of transitioning to a different gender, it must mean something very real to that person, beyond just seeking attention.

Perhaps this is a clue to my own confusion. Maybe I just don't have "gender" and so, since I assume that other people are mostly like me, I assume gender isn't really a thing, aside from the basic facts of biology and sexuality. But, maybe I'm just unusual. Or maybe those who have gender are unusual, but, either way, gender can be a real thing, separate from biology and sexuality, without me having it.

Interesting.

I think I understand what you are saying here. I am biologically and sexually woman and heterosexual. Like you I fit neatly into those categories with no question about either. I always thought of gender assignment as just that. My biological equipment and sexual desires make my gender that of "woman".

I don't see myself as "gender free" but I can identify with men on some things and identify with women on others. I can be just as comfortable as the lone woman with a group of my male friends as I can as one of a group of women. ... and sexuality doesn't come into play in either instance unless I (or someone in the group) chooses for it to be there.

In many ways I am like the men I know and in many ways I am like the women I know. I don't think of that as a gender thing though. I believe gender IS a combination of our biological equipment AND our sexual preference AND our acceptance of both of them.

So maybe ultimately our gender hinges on whether we accept the first two we've been given at birth or we don't.

 

[Arkady]

Are you setting us up for an announcement about your "transition"?

From what to what? Although I'd like to be a bit taller and to have a fuller head of hair, I'm mostly content with the body I was born with, including all the classically male bits. So, I wouldn't want to undergo any surgery that would mess with my junk, nor anything that would alter the hormone mix that I've gotten accustomed to. I suppose this would define me as "cis-gendered" in the minds of the trans community. But I'm not sure that word has any meaning in my context. Gender identification is simply not a significant part of my self identity. I suspect that if I'd been born a woman, I'd be equally content with that state of things, even with my current psychology -- I'd just have the added social burden of being a lesbian.

Some people are keenly aware of their zodiac sign and it makes a big difference in how they think about themselves, while others just don't think of their zodiac sign matters. Likewise, some people are keenly aware of their caste, clan, tribe, religion, nationality, home state, home town, or handedness, and it makes a big difference in how they self-define. And others are unaware of those things, or don't even think they apply, or regard them as merely trivial aspects of their nature. Couldn't the same be true of gender?

 

[Arkady]

Trust me, it's YOU who is "unusual..."

No doubt that's true in a lot of cases. I'm not sure it is here. Does everyone else here think of "gender" as a meaningful and important thing for them, aside from any questions of sexuality and biology?

 

[Arkady]

I disagree...just stay out.....if I cut off your arm...do you go away...so if I cutoff your junk...you don't go away...you are still the same little whiney democratic who hates it's self.

Thinking has two ways...to enter the woman's restroom you need to think like a woman also...and that is a very high definition form of thinking and very complex.

If gender is defined as thinking like a woman, what does that mean? Could there be biological women that you want to stay out of the women's restroom, despite physiologically standard female bodies, simply because they don't think like women? Likewise, could there be biological men you'd want using the women's restroom, despite physiologically standard male bodies, because they do think like women?

 

[marvin martian]

From what to what? Although I'd like to be a bit taller and to have a fuller head of hair, I'm mostly content with the body I was born with, including all the classically male bits. So, I wouldn't want to undergo any surgery that would mess with my junk, nor anything that would alter the hormone mix that I've gotten accustomed to. I suppose this would define me as "cis-gendered" in the minds of the trans community. But I'm not sure that word has any meaning in my context. Gender identification is simply not a significant part of my self identity. I suspect that if I'd been born a woman, I'd be equally content with that state of things, even with my current psychology -- I'd just have the added social burden of being a lesbian.

Some people are keenly aware of their zodiac sign and it makes a big difference in how they think about themselves, while others just don't think of their zodiac sign matters. Likewise, some people are keenly aware of their caste, clan, tribe, religion, nationality, home state, home town, or handedness, and it makes a big difference in how they self-define. And others are unaware of those things, or don't even think they apply, or regard them as merely trivial aspects of their nature. Couldn't the same be true of gender?

If you say so...though, I think you doth protest a bit too much

 

[resident_evil]

I keep looping back to the question of what it means to say a biological man is a woman (or vice versa). I don't grasp the idea, because it involves the existence of a thing called "gender" that is separate from biology and sexuality, and I have no personal experience with that. Biologically, I fit about as neatly as possible within the category of a male. I also fit comfortably within the category of a heterosexual. But, aside from biology and sexuality, am I a man? What does that even mean?

I certainly think of myself as biologically male and heterosexual, but aside from that, I'm not even sure what it means to ask if I identify as a man. There are many things about my social role that fit within the stereotypical role of men. But some that don't. Online, people occasionally mistake me for a woman (reading "Arkady" as "Arklady"). Generally, I don't even bother to correct this, since it doesn't matter. Within the context of a forum, neither my biology nor my sexuality matters. What "gender" do I have, outside of those things?

Perhaps I am simply "gender-free," when it comes to a definition of that term beyond biology and sexuality. I don't particularly identify with men or with women, any more than I identify on the basis of ancestry or zodiac sign.

This video helped me think more clearly about this:

The woman who made the video says that she doesn't have "gender" and she also talks about how, when she was younger, she thought gender wasn't really a thing, and thought that those who spoke about being "mis-gendered" were just attention-seeking. Now she reasons that if someone were to go to all the trouble of transitioning to a different gender, it must mean something very real to that person, beyond just seeking attention.

Perhaps this is a clue to my own confusion. Maybe I just don't have "gender" and so, since I assume that other people are mostly like me, I assume gender isn't really a thing, aside from the basic facts of biology and sexuality. But, maybe I'm just unusual. Or maybe those who have gender are unusual, but, either way, gender can be a real thing, separate from biology and sexuality, without me having it.

Interesting.

SHOW ME THE GENES!!!

I digress but unless and until you show me genes that make a person gay or transgendered. It is a behavioral choice or a mental illness abstracted away from the concept of being born that way.

Note the similarity to the mental illnesses below.


Becoming disabled by choice, not chance: ‘Transabled’ people feel like impostors in their fully working bodies

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...-like-impostors-in-their-fully-working-bodies


Anorexia

https://www.google.com/search?q=ano...d=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=anorexia&tbm=nws

 

[Arkady]

I think I understand what you are saying here. I am biologically and sexually woman and heterosexual. Like you I fit neatly into those categories with no question about either. I always thought of gender assignment as just that. My biological equipment and sexual desires make my gender that of "woman".

I don't see myself as "gender free" but I can identify with men on some things and identify with women on others. I can be just as comfortable as the lone woman with a group of my male friends as I can as one of a group of women. ... and sexuality doesn't come into play in either instance unless I (or someone in the group) chooses for it to be there.

In many ways I am like the men I know and in many ways I am like the women I know. I don't think of that as a gender thing though. I believe gender IS a combination of our biological equipment AND our sexual preference AND our acceptance of both of them.

So maybe ultimately our gender hinges on whether we accept the first two we've been given at birth or we don't.

That's a pretty sensible way to think about it. But, I'm not sure that's the whole story. I'm comfortable with the biological equipment I was born with, but for me it feels like that's just inertia. In the same sense, I'm comfortable with having been born an eldest child or a lefty, but I feel like I'd be just as comfortable having been born a youngest child, right-handed, and in a female body. If I'd been born into a female body, I very much doubt I'd go through the trouble of sex reassignment.

Isaac Asimov's books often had a dust-cover blurb about the author's biography, which started "Isaac Asimov was born in the Soviet Union to his great surprise." I was tickled by that, because it recognized a certain incongruity between Asimov, the man, and that odd detail of his origin. I think trans people are reacting to a similar incongruity, as if somehow it was a mistake of fate that had them born into the body of whatever sex they started with. I regard it more as just a random thing, which isn't right or wrong.

 

[Arkady]

SHOW ME THE GENES!!!

I digress but unless and until you show me genes that make a person gay or transgendered. It is a behavioral choice or a mental illness abstracted away from the concept of being born that way.

There are a great many things about people for which we have not yet located a gene. Some people, for example, can roll their tongues and others can't. Studies of twins suggest that there is both a genetic component and an environmental component.... much like with the trait of homosexuality. The same is true for, say, musical genius -- studies strongly suggest a genetic link (e.g., in twins separated at birth, if one has great musical ability, the other is likely to, as well). And height. And life expectancy. And handedness. And countless other features that aren't primarily behavioral choices or signs of mental illness. Yet, with gene sequencing still in its infancy, it's not like you could show a scientist someone's DNA and he could tell you how tall he'll grow, or whether he will be able to roll his tongue, or whether he'll be gay.

The insistence that homosexuality or transexuality must be a mental illness strikes me like an earlier era's insistence that being left-handed was a perversion or even a sign of demonic possession.

 

[resident_evil]

There are a great many things about people for which we have not yet located a gene. Some people, for example, can roll their tongues and others can't. Studies of twins suggest that there is both a genetic component and an environmental component.... much like with the trait of homosexuality. The same is true for, say, musical genius -- studies strongly suggest a genetic link (e.g., in twins separated at birth, if one has great musical ability, the other is likely to, as well). And height. And life expectancy. And handedness. And countless other features that aren't primarily behavioral choices or signs of mental illness. Yet, with gene sequencing still in its infancy, it's not like you could show a scientist someone's DNA and he could tell you how tall he'll grow, or whether he will be able to roll his tongue, or whether he'll be gay.

The insistence that homosexuality or transexuality must be a mental illness strikes me like an earlier era's insistence that being left-handed was a perversion or even a sign of demonic possession.

So necrophilia, pedophilia, and bestiality are also genes expressing themselves as would handedness and tongue rolling? Show me.

I used to stipulate that some people were born homosexual or trans. It seemed reasonable. Now I want scientific proof and is should be relatively easy to find. As easy as hair color and other traits readily mapped already.

There is a readily available and very large sample pool.

 

[Jen]

That's a pretty sensible way to think about it. But, I'm not sure that's the whole story. I'm comfortable with the biological equipment I was born with, but for me it feels like that's just inertia. In the same sense, I'm comfortable with having been born an eldest child or a lefty, but I feel like I'd be just as comfortable having been born a youngest child, right-handed, and in a female body. If I'd been born into a female body, I very much doubt I'd go through the trouble of sex reassignment.

Isaac Asimov's books often had a dust-cover blurb about the author's biography, which started "Isaac Asimov was born in the Soviet Union to his great surprise." I was tickled by that, because it recognized a certain incongruity between Asimov, the man, and that odd detail of his origin. I think trans people are reacting to a similar incongruity, as if somehow it was a mistake of fate that had them born into the body of whatever sex they started with. I regard it more as just a random thing, which isn't right or wrong.

And again I agree with your assessment. Some thinkers believe that our Spirit aka Soul is reborn over and over again in a great many bodies and a wide array of places. And that the Soul chooses before birth a person and place that will aid most in learning. It's all about learning. I can identify with that to a large extent. If I felt female but was born into a male body, I don't think that I would feel pressured in any way to change that body. I would just behave like "me" and that would be fine and quite acceptable.

To me, for a person to be freaked out about being in the wrong body it would mean that it's a very young Soul that wasn't ready for such a change from the original choice (I don't think Souls have specific gender). But of course, I'm just projecting here.

My life has been full of my doing traditionally "male" things. As a preschooler I preferred playing cars in the dirt to playing with dolls. I collected spiders (live ones) and horny toads and snakes..........and tried unsuccessfully to collect a baby skunk. I climbed trees and played "cowboys and indians" (it was okay to do that then). As an adult I played War Games on boards (Battle of the Bulge, Russian Campaign) and moved into being Game Master at Dungeons and Dragons as soon as the game was invented. I still play MMORPGS and have used C+ to create them online. That's a man's world. All of it. Yet, I am pure woman. I adore men and always have adored them as a woman. So................... I'm pretty sure that someone who was "born in the wrong body" has something else going on that's driving them to make a physical change. I have no idea what it is.

 

[Arkady]

So necrophilia, pedophilia, and bestiality are also genes expressing themselves as would handedness and tongue rolling? Show me.

If that's your view, shouldn't you be showing me? And if it's not your view, why insert it into this discussion?

Now I want scientific proof and is should be relatively easy to find. As easy as hair color and other traits readily mapped already.

Actually, the genetics of hair color are still very much a work in progress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hair_color#Genetics_and_biochemistry_of_hair_color

If it has taken this long to work out which genes control hair color, I'd imagine working out the genes influencing things like homosexuality will be much harder, given the complicating cultural factors and the smaller sample sizes.

 

[resident_evil]

If that's your view, shouldn't you be showing me? And if it's not your view, why insert it into this discussion?

It is the natural extension of your view that you now seem unable to defend. How come?

Actually, the genetics of hair color are still very much a work in progress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hair_color#Genetics_and_biochemistry_of_hair_color

If it has taken this long to work out which genes control hair color, I'd imagine working out the genes influencing things like homosexuality will be much harder, given the complicating cultural factors and the smaller sample sizes.

Try again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_19_(human)


And genes are discovered more quickly these days by statistical means. Given we have so many self-identified people in regards to homosexuality.... It should be a trivial matter to begin to have at least 1-3 genes highly indicative of homosexual tendencies.

Show me the genes or it is a behavioral choice.

 

[Arkady]

And again I agree with your assessment. Some thinkers believe that our Spirit aka Soul is reborn over and over again in a great many bodies and a wide array of places. And that the Soul chooses before birth a person and place that will aid most in learning. It's all about learning. I can identify with that to a large extent. If I felt female but was born into a male body, I don't think that I would feel pressured in any way to change that body. I would just behave like "me" and that would be fine and quite acceptable.

To me, for a person to be freaked out about being in the wrong body it would mean that it's a very young Soul that wasn't ready for such a change from the original choice (I don't think Souls have specific gender). But of course, I'm just projecting here.

My life has been full of my doing traditionally "male" things. As a preschooler I preferred playing cars in the dirt to playing with dolls. I collected spiders (live ones) and horny toads and snakes..........and tried unsuccessfully to collect a baby skunk. I climbed trees and played "cowboys and indians" (it was okay to do that then). As an adult I played War Games on boards (Battle of the Bulge, Russian Campaign) and moved into being Game Master at Dungeons and Dragons as soon as the game was invented. I still play MMORPGS and have used C+ to create them online. That's a man's world. All of it. Yet, I am pure woman. I adore men and always have adored them as a woman. So................... I'm pretty sure that someone who was "born in the wrong body" has something else going on that's driving them to make a physical change. I have no idea what it is.

I don't feel "judge-y" of those who do feel the desire to change the body they were born in. For example, my wife had light blonde hair as a child, and now her natural color is somewhere between dark blonde and light brown, with a few strands of gray. She chooses to color it to get rid of the gray and lighten it to something closer to the color she had when she was younger. She also has a couple holes in her ears that she wasn't born with, which she uses for wearing earrings I don't do any of that. But, if it makes her happier and more comfortable, that's fine by me.

I think a lot of people alter their bodies in some way,(nose jobs, collagen injections, boob jobs, hair dye, hormone therapy, steroids, tattoos, permanents, piercings, bronzer, etc. Even those who don't change their body usually will do something to make their body appear different, to the observer (makeup, colored contacts, high heels, padded bras, shoulder pads, spanx, and so on). It's superficial, but it doesn't strike me as a big deal. So, I don't have a problem with a more radical version of that, if a person wants to resemble the opposite sex. But, I still haven't wrapped my head around the idea of "gender."

 

[Jen]

I don't feel "judge-y" of those who do feel the desire to change the body they were born in. For example, my wife had light blonde hair as a child, and now her natural color is somewhere between dark blonde and light brown, with a few strands of gray. She chooses to color it to get rid of the gray and lighten it to something closer to the color she had when she was younger. She also has a couple holes in her ears that she wasn't born with, which she uses for wearing earrings I don't do any of that. But, if it makes her happier and more comfortable, that's fine by me.

I think a lot of people alter their bodies in some way,(nose jobs, collagen injections, boob jobs, hair dye, hormone therapy, steroids, tattoos, permanents, piercings, bronzer, etc. Even those who don't change their body usually will do something to make their body appear different, to the observer (makeup, colored contacts, high heels, padded bras, shoulder pads, spanx, and so on). It's superficial, but it doesn't strike me as a big deal. So, I don't have a problem with a more radical version of that, if a person wants to resemble the opposite sex. But, I still haven't wrapped my head around the idea of "gender."

I wasn't being judge - y at all. I just don't know what makes a person want to change their gender. If it's what makes them comfortable that's fine with me. And I do understand being comfortable with certain changes we can make. My hair was near white when I was young and now it's darker blonde with a streak of white right in front. I colored it for a while, now I just don't think about it.

We all do things to make us more comfortable in our bodies. Some people need to do more than others. That "need" doesn't make us more or less of a person. It's just what is. Again, I don't understand but my understanding doesn't matter.

Maybe "gender" is whatever we (you) need it to be. Maybe it's just that simple.