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Follow-up: Mortality in white America

Arkady

President
Apparently the rise in mortality among middle-age whites is being driven by poor whites, and specifically by suicide and by issues related to substance abuse, such as liver problems:

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/06/dea...lly_dying_and_this_is_your_idea_of_an_answer/

That brings more clarity to the issue. But it's still fascinating that the sudden turn for the worse dates to the late 90s, when overall things were still taking a turn for the better. Even among the white working class, unemployment was falling, incomes were rising, poverty was fading, crime was plummeting, etc. Yet, that demographic group seems to have been plunging into despair. I don't have trouble understanding that despair starting from a few years later, when that group was materially less well off. But it's odd when it's happening at a time when things were getting better in absolute terms.

Maybe it comes down to the "positional good." Basically, in the late 90s, even though the material conditions of the white working class were improving in absolute terms (until around 2001), they were worsening in relative terms -- relative to the non-white working class, which was catching up, and relative to the white upper-class, which was pulling away. In the Clinton years, incomes at the 20th percentile rose 19%, which is particularly impressive considering that in the disastrous Republican-dominated 12 years before that, incomes actually FELL 3% for that group. But consider what was happening, in the meantime, with the very wealthy. Incomes were up 26% for households at the 95th percentile, and the gains went nearly vertical at higher levels. In the midst of the dotcom boom, the airwaves were saturated with stories of newly-minted multi-billionaires and CEOs earning insane incomes that led them to compete with each other in buying gold-plated toilets, private jets, and flotillas of yachts. The middle and working classes were plunging into ever-higher household debt, to try, in some small way, to emulate the lifestyles of the super-rich.

In fact, 2000 was the year when the ratio of pay between CEOs and workers reached its highest-ever level. CEOs, who had made about 20 times as much as the average worker back in our economic golden age of the mid-1960s, were making 376.1 times as much by 2000. I can see why poorer workers, busting their asses for relatively modest improvements, could become bitter and engage in self-damaging behaviors, while they watched the vast majority of the prosperity they made possible hoarded by a relatively few people at the top. Even with your own absolute material quality of life rising, if you feel like you're badly failing in your attempts to "keep up with the Joneses," because the very rich have gotten to the point where all your possessions are mere pocket change, that's not going to lead to a particularly healthy mindset. And, unlike in prior eras, where poor whites at least had the psychological balm of knowing that they represented a social elite relative to minorities, now they were finding themselves quickly being pushed towards that bottom rung.

That's the best I can do, at this point, in explaining the timing of the onset of that cultural despair among poor whites, even at a time when the numbers indicate they were still getting richer. It would help to explain why it set in during the late 1990s, and it would also explain why we don't see a parallel worsening in other leading nations. Although the incomes of the upper-class advanced somewhat abroad, they never pulled away the way they did here. CEO pay in other wealthy nations tends to be between about 50 and 150 times worker pay, which is more in line with what it was in the 1980s, versus the 300+ times we have here now. The US is recreating something like a feudal model of economics, in terms of the relative economic power of the lords and the serfs, while something a bit more democratic continue to exist in most other wealthy nations. Maybe life as a serf is just depressing, even for a serf who is wealthy in absolute terms.
 
thanks for incorporating the premise of my response to your top post yesterday.

if I can be of further service, please don't hesitate to ask
 
Apparently the rise in mortality among middle-age whites is being driven by poor whites, and specifically by suicide and by issues related to substance abuse, such as liver problems:
I'm curious as to what social injustice you'll point to that is causing this trend. You know, being that personal responsibility isn't exactly much considered when it comes to dealing with minority issues by noted Liberals.
That brings more clarity to the issue. But it's still fascinating that the sudden turn for the worse dates to the late 90s, when overall things were still taking a turn for the better.
I'm not sure why it's "fascinating".. it just is. There's so many reasons why populations of people can differ. Cultural, genetic, geographical, etc.

Unless there's some underlying theory you have, one which you can't just outright say.
 
Apparently the rise in mortality among middle-age whites is being driven by poor whites, and specifically by suicide and by issues related to substance abuse, such as liver problems:

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/06/dea...lly_dying_and_this_is_your_idea_of_an_answer/

That brings more clarity to the issue. But it's still fascinating that the sudden turn for the worse dates to the late 90s, when overall things were still taking a turn for the better. Even among the white working class, unemployment was falling, incomes were rising, poverty was fading, crime was plummeting, etc. Yet, that demographic group seems to have been plunging into despair. I don't have trouble understanding that despair starting from a few years later, when that group was materially less well off. But it's odd when it's happening at a time when things were getting better in absolute terms.

Maybe it comes down to the "positional good." Basically, in the late 90s, even though the material conditions of the white working class were improving in absolute terms (until around 2001), they were worsening in relative terms -- relative to the non-white working class, which was catching up, and relative to the white upper-class, which was pulling away. In the Clinton years, incomes at the 20th percentile rose 19%, which is particularly impressive considering that in the disastrous Republican-dominated 12 years before that, incomes actually FELL 3% for that group. But consider what was happening, in the meantime, with the very wealthy. Incomes were up 26% for households at the 95th percentile, and the gains went nearly vertical at higher levels. In the midst of the dotcom boom, the airwaves were saturated with stories of newly-minted multi-billionaires and CEOs earning insane incomes that led them to compete with each other in buying gold-plated toilets, private jets, and flotillas of yachts. The middle and working classes were plunging into ever-higher household debt, to try, in some small way, to emulate the lifestyles of the super-rich.

In fact, 2000 was the year when the ratio of pay between CEOs and workers reached its highest-ever level. CEOs, who had made about 20 times as much as the average worker back in our economic golden age of the mid-1960s, were making 376.1 times as much by 2000. I can see why poorer workers, busting their asses for relatively modest improvements, could become bitter and engage in self-damaging behaviors, while they watched the vast majority of the prosperity they made possible hoarded by a relatively few people at the top. Even with your own absolute material quality of life rising, if you feel like you're badly failing in your attempts to "keep up with the Joneses," because the very rich have gotten to the point where all your possessions are mere pocket change, that's not going to lead to a particularly healthy mindset. And, unlike in prior eras, where poor whites at least had the psychological balm of knowing that they represented a social elite relative to minorities, now they were finding themselves quickly being pushed towards that bottom rung.

That's the best I can do, at this point, in explaining the timing of the onset of that cultural despair among poor whites, even at a time when the numbers indicate they were still getting richer. It would help to explain why it set in during the late 1990s, and it would also explain why we don't see a parallel worsening in other leading nations. Although the incomes of the upper-class advanced somewhat abroad, they never pulled away the way they did here. CEO pay in other wealthy nations tends to be between about 50 and 150 times worker pay, which is more in line with what it was in the 1980s, versus the 300+ times we have here now. The US is recreating something like a feudal model of economics, in terms of the relative economic power of the lords and the serfs, while something a bit more democratic continue to exist in most other wealthy nations. Maybe life as a serf is just depressing, even for a serf who is wealthy in absolute terms.

You drew your conclusion from a Salon.com hit piece written by a racist nutjob named Chauncey Devega? LOL.

Here are some of Chauncey's other insights:

Donald Trump’s “Death Wish” fantasies: Guns, white vigilantism, and the right’s toxic masculinity

Black America owes no forgiveness: How Christianity hinders racial justice

America is a neoliberal horror movie: Why “They Live” is the perfect film for our depraved times

The big “black racism” lie: The toxic right-wing trope that shrouds the truth about white supremacy

Actually, the more of these I read, the more I began to realize this whacko is probably you!
 

... an Arkady Liberal will rip on FOX, but posture with salon articles who write this stuff.

Incredible.
 
I'm curious as to what social injustice you'll point to that is causing this trend. You know, being that personal responsibility isn't exactly much considered when it comes to dealing with minority issues by noted Liberals.

With any particular individual, emphasizing personal responsibility is great. But when you see a massive, systematic decline in personal responsibility in a particular group (middle-aged working class white Americans), being content to cluck your tongue about their personal individual failings, and call it a day there, is a complete cop out. Systematic changes demand systematic explanations. What changed that resulted in so many more individuals making bad personal choices? What can change to result in more individuals, in the future, making good personal choices? Since this particular turn for the worse didn't hit other wealthy nations, I think a good place to look for an explanation would be differences between here and there.

I'm not sure why it's "fascinating".. it just is.

I come at it from a pragmatic and scientific perspective. For example, once upon a time smallpox decimated much of Europe, but was almost unheard of among milk maids. An intellectually lazy person could have played the fatalist and said "that's not fascinating, it just is." But an intellectually curious person would have asked what it was about the milk maids that was protecting them. That could lead him to an understanding of the role of cowpox in granting immunity, and from there to the idea of vaccines, and from there to eliminating smallpox and greatly reducing all sorts of other ailments. I'm inspired by that kind of rejection of simple-minded fatalism. If we can understand why one group is suffering a problem and another isn't, we may be able to eliminate some suffering. That's what I want to do here. White middle-class Americans are suffering and dying in a way their counterparts in other wealthy nations aren't. If we can figure out why, we can change that.
 
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Compare Obama's speech at the 2004 national democrat convention with the theme of this thread. Lefties lie. That's all you need to know.
 
thanks for incorporating the premise of my response to your top post yesterday.

if I can be of further service, please don't hesitate to ask
As a reminder, you blamed heroin, and I showed how the math didn't work for that -- it had to be broader. It appears it's much broader, including suicide and substance abuse generally. That's an important distinction. If it were just heroin, maybe we could consider a supply-side solution: somehow dry up the supply of heroin. But when we're talking about substance abuse generally, that supply-side approach is unlikely to work. The problem appears to be on the demand side. If we dry up heroin (as it was mostly dried up in the late 90s when this problem took off), that demand will just go to other substances with similar consequences. So, that would point us towards instead figuring out why people in that group are so eager to "numb the pain" recently.
 
Did you have a substantive response to the argument?
 
Compare Obama's speech at the 2004 national democrat convention with the theme of this thread. Lefties lie. That's all you need to know.

I spotted his garbage when he made that speech. I knew then and there his "there's no white America no black America" and other bogus calls for unity were a complete and total LIE.
 
Did you have some particular lie in mind?
The entire theme of a unified nation when Obama has taken the opportunity to exploit a racist agenda in the "Beer Summit", Trayvon Martin, and Michael Brown incidents, which a president of the United States has no business being involved in.
 
WOW, another Race Relations post in Politics and Currents Events............

HO HUMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm
 
... an Arkady Liberal will rip on FOX, but posture with salon articles who write this stuff.

Incredible.
Think of how absolutely brain damaged one has to be to consider the nation "Republican dominated" while the Democrats were in control of the House and Senate for forty years!

The insanity and hypocrisy go beyond the pale.
 
WOW, another Race Relations post in Politics and Currents Events............

HO HUMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm
The discussion here isn't primarily about race relations. Looking at the white demographic in isolation is useful in that it controls for one factor that people may otherwise point to in order to explain the problem. If, for example, I'd pointed out that US mortality for that age range grew while it didn't grow for the same age range in other wealthy nations, the reflexive right-wing response would be to point to our racial diversity as somehow being responsible for it. I've seen that repeatedly -- basically: "those other countries are racially homogeneous, so it's an apples-to oranges comparison." By looking just at what's happening to the white sub-group of that age block, we control for that, so that the issue can't be dismissed on racial grounds.

Do you understand now?
 
The discussion here isn't primarily about race relations. Looking at the white demographic in isolation is useful in that it controls for one factor that people may otherwise point to in order to explain the problem. If, for example, I'd pointed out that US mortality for that age range grew while it didn't grow for the same age range in other wealthy nations, the reflexive right-wing response would be to point to our racial diversity as somehow being responsible for it. I've seen that repeatedly -- basically: "those other countries are racially homogeneous, so it's an apples-to oranges comparison." By looking just at what's happening to the white sub-group of that age block, we control for that, so that the issue can't be dismissed on racial grounds.

Do you understand now?

again, shouldn't be posted in Politics and Current Events and should be in RR just as anything titled Black goes.........

As the Black kid (9) slaughtered in Chicago by Blacks, what the hell does morality have to do with it?
 
again, shouldn't be posted in Politics and Current Events and should be in RR just as anything titled Black goes.........

As the Black kid (9) slaughtered in Chicago by Blacks, what the hell does morality have to do with it?
If the moderators want to move it, they can. However, since the primary focus is not race relations, it seems more at home here.
 
I'll read that as confirmation that you were making a generic attack and had nothing specific in mind.
I'll read that as confirmation that you were making a generic attack and had nothing specific in mind.
Yep, this is the part where you play dumb. You filthy nasty creatures need to be removed from all power and destroyed.
 
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