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Question for Opponents of Mandatory Contraception Coverage

Arkady

President
I'm trying to get a handle on why, exactly, various people object to healthcare insurance being required to cover contraception. Is this just an objection to ALL government mandates about healthcare insurance? Or is it really just an objection to taking away the option for a religiously-affiliated organization to select an insurance package that doesn't cover a particular thing that the religion objects to?

If it's the latter, would you apply that mandate even-handedly to any religious objection? For example, Jehova's Witnesses object to blood transfusions. Would you permit organizations affiliated with them to opt for insurance that doesn't cover blood transfusions? Scientologists object to pretty much all standard forms of psychiatric care. Would you permit their affiliates to to opt for insurance that doesn't cover such care? Lots of religions object to a man "spilling his seed." Would you permit their affiliates to opt for insurance that doesn't cover male fertility testing (which requires testing of sperm)? Jainists aren't permitted to harm any animal. Would you permit Jainism-affiliated organizations to opt for health insurance that didn't cover any drugs, procedures, or devices that were tested on animals? Some religions are devoutly pacifist. Would their affiliates be permitted to refuse coverage for wounds veterans received fighting for our country, if the religion claimed that was an article of their faith?

Practically anything I can think of that insurance might cover could be objected to by one established religion or another. Christian Scientists object to nearly all forms of serious medical intervention, for example. You'd also be able to rule out insurance that covers non-emergency treatment on pretty much any given day of the week, on the grounds that it's the holy day of one religion or another. And you could rule out insurance that covers pretty much any given type of hospital food, since various religions have so many different dietary rules. There are even religions that have rules against people from certain castes, or women, becoming doctors, so you could have insurance that won't cover treatment by those people.

So, if you're a proponent of leaving Catholic-affiliated organizations the option of selecting insurers that don't cover contraception, are you planning to apply that same principle across-the-board to all the various things religions could object to?

For me, that sounds like a recipe for abuse and fraud. Since we don't want the government getting into the business of checking the authenticity of religious faith, and since anyone can invent a religion any time he wants with any rules he wants for it, you'd just be creating an incentive for fake religions that organizations could affiliate themselves with in order to cut their health insurance costs.

"Sorry, my organization is affiliated with a religions that believes that AIDS is a divinely-ordained disease that mankind must not interfere with, so we won't be paying for any of those expensive HIV treatments."

"We consider it an abomination to place any hardware into the human body, so you'll have to pay for your pacemaker and your hip replacement out of pocket."

"We think doctors must first be blessed by the Grand Pontiff before God will permit them to heal people, so our insurance will only cover charges from doctors who have the Holy Seal (which can be obtained at the low cost of $100,000, paid by cashier's check made out to Grand Pontiff, Inc.)."

It also seems unworkable in a situation where there is a rule against insurers denying people coverage for pre-existing conditions. Let's say I'm working for a Jehova's Witness-affiliated organization when I find out I've got a medical condition that is going to require a lot of surgeries and then an expensive lifelong regime of blood-based treatments (which my Witness-compliant insurer won't cover). If that looks like it's going to be a big enough expense, then my incentive would be to change employers and, if needed, buy private insurance. When I do so, I'll drop out of the insurance pool for the Witness-affiliated organization, saving them a ton of money. By letting some religious-affiliated organizations shed the expense of their sick workers, such a rule would create an even greater incentive for fraudulent religious claims, and would put organizations affiliated with some religions at a competitive advantage against organizations affiliated with other religions. A university affiliated with a religion with the right dogmas to make its insurance coverage dirt cheap (and functionally worthless), could charge students significantly less for education than a university affiliated with a more enlightened faith that permits modern medical care -- and, meanwhile, the reactionary university's employees and students would have the safety net of knowing that if they ever did get sick, they could buy real insurance coverage and still be covered for those pre-existing conditions, so there's no loss for them.

It just seems so much simpler and more reasonable, to me, to apply one set of rules across the board, whatever they might be, for all organizations, blind to their religious dogmas. Religious-affiliated organizations would still be free to spend their energy convincing their employees to VOLUNTARILY comply with their dogmas, rather than coercing them by refusing basic medical coverage.
 
Why should contraception be handled any different than any other prescription?

Sort of the debate under way there Stan...

I don't believe it should. A patient receives a prescription from their doctor...the pharmacy fills the prescription, the insurance company pays for it just like all the other prescriptions. The "moral" code of the employer isn't part of the process.

In my case...all my prescriptions have a $5 co pay. I have no long term presrciptions, but I've had a pharmacist express how good my insurance is...when I needed a $100 prescription filled.
 
Is this just an objection to ALL government mandates about healthcare insurance?

For me, it's this.

The federal government has no legal authority to mandate that any citizen purchase any product from any company.

And I'm reasonably sure the Supreme Court will see it that way.
 
While I do understand why the Left wants such to be provided, here are the problems I have with it:

#1. Expecting groups like the Catholic Church to PAY for it, despite the fact that Contraception is against the Rules of the Church.
#2. Expecting ME to pay for it, through my tax donations. To be honest, I am not overly concerned with providing contraception, but...what comes next? Sex changes? Penis enlargements? Tummy Tucks, Botox treatments, Viagra, cosmetic surgery...where will it end?
#3. As insurers and, groups like the Catholic Church are forced to cover this, more and more will simply back out, which will move us to what I honestly think was Obama's goal, from Day One: Universal, Single-Payer, Socialized Medicine, where Bureaucrats will decide who gets what treatments, your actual contributions over your lifetime, NOT considered, of course....
 
Wow, it appears we're in complete agreement. I must be missing something here. ;)

Sort of the debate under way there Stan...

I don't believe it should. A patient receives a prescription from their doctor...the pharmacy fills the prescription, the insurance company pays for it just like all the other prescriptions. The "moral" code of the employer isn't part of the process.

In my case...all my prescriptions have a $5 co pay. I have no long term presrciptions, but I've had a pharmacist express how good my insurance is...when I needed a $100 prescription filled.
 
For me, it's this.

The federal government has no legal authority to mandate that any citizen purchase any product from any company.

And I'm reasonably sure the Supreme Court will see it that way.

Let us hope so.

We have to destroy the Monstrosity that is Obama care......
 
Wow, it appears we're in complete agreement. I must be missing something here. ;)

I believe the other posts in the thread do a good job of explaining it. They don't answer Arkady's questions...the merely say the same objections they've always said. Some are completely wrong of course...because the discussion is about insurance, paid for insurance...covering a prescription and the worrisome possibilities of false religions springing up solely to avoid insurance for their employees.
 
Craig, I've never been too interested in the religious aspect of this per se. That's not to say people don't have the right to argue that angle. It simply doesn't interest me much. To me, a case can be made against the mandate from angles other than the religious one.

However, the less government mandates people and organizations to do things, the better. Of course there are exceptions to this logic, but I simply have seen no reason why contraception should be one of those exceptions.

I believe the other posts in the thread do a good job of explaining it. They don't answer Arkady's questions...the merely say the same objections they've always said. Some are completely wrong of course...because the discussion is about insurance, paid for insurance...covering a prescription and the worrisome possibilities of false religions springing up solely to avoid insurance for their employees.
 
Craig, I've never been too interested in the religious aspect of this. That's not to say people don't have the right to argue that angle. It simply doesn't interest me much. However, the less government mandates people and organizations to do things, the better. Of course there are exceptions to this logic, but I simply have seen no reason why contraception should be one of those exceptions.

I'm with ya here.

Doc isn't. Indeed...it was the very first thing he brought up. Arkady spent quite a bit of time composing that essay giving examples of morally based religious concerns, and the first response was..."it's against the church's morality"...

Exemptions have been given the actual CHURCH...but not to businesses run by the church. I see no issue here in the slightest. Others see an end to the First Amendment. It's a broad divide.
 
I believe the other posts in the thread do a good job of explaining it. They don't answer Arkady's questions...the merely say the same objections they've always said. Some are completely wrong of course...because the discussion is about insurance, paid for insurance...covering a prescription and the worrisome possibilities of false religions springing up solely to avoid insurance for their employees.

They already exist, but they depend on their members to abide by their teachings for their own self. They don't expect that everyone who is not of their faith to follow their beliefs. But give them time and give them a reason and maybe they might start.

Now we are back to co-pays vs full pay, and not that people on the right just want to protect the church but they want the AFFORDABLE INS PLAN done away with. I would be 90% of the people know little about what it does. what it provides or how it will work. They believe what they want to believe and this will cause their states to not get the things done to provide the needed ins pools to be formed on a state level to deal with this.

Affordable health care is a need, not having health care or having high price individual health care is not the answer. Instead of trying to make something work for all of America, we have a portion who is so afraid that it might work they have spent all their time trying to destroy it, instead of seeing how it can be made better.

Fight it all you want but people will have the option sooner or later, just depends on how many people must suffer before it gets done, because having health ins for all is the right thing, not just for those who are rich.
 
Historically, the federal government has effectively mandated purchases in the past, without court objection. Just as an example, early in the country's history the federal government mandated that able-bodied males arm themselves with various weapons (a musket, etc.)... which, as a practical matter, mandated that some of them make purchase from private enterprises. It's possible the modern court -- stacked as it is with five right-wingers -- will reverse course on that and create a brand new rule, out of whole cloth, saying that the federal government can't mandate that citizens purchase a product. Such conservative judicial activism is, after all, not uncommon in this era. But, if they do so, it will definitely be a departure from precedent, and an ENORMOUS intrusion of the judiciary into what is clearly a political question, which would be completely at odds with the doctrines of judicial restraint some of those five conservatives claim to believe in.

But, I won't get too far off on a tangent here, since, for the purposes of this thread, your position is at least intellectually consistent: either the government has the ability to mandate insurance coverage or not -- the religious issue being a red herring.
 
I think we can have a reasonable debate about "where does it end"? If someone wants to argue that no insurer should be required to cover contraception (or tummy tucks, or viagra, or whatever), that can be a productive debate. But I think it would be absurd to go down the road of having a separate set of rules for each piece of insurance depending on the religious nature of the employer through which is was procured. Either all insurers should have that requirement, or none should.

As for that more fundamental debate, about contraception, there's a very strong public policy argument for having it covered by insurance, unlike botox treatments, etc. Unwanted pregnancies tend to impose higher costs on the society down the road. An ounce of prevention saves us money. That's why you don't hear the insurers objecting. They'd rather be forced to cover the cost of some birth control pills than be forced to cover the cost of the pregnancy and birth, and the eventual child. It's not just long-term medical costs that are likely to be lower if we cover the cost of contraception, either. Other social costs are believed to rise when there are more unwanted births. For example, the drop in unwanted births after 1973 is often credited with the drop in violent crime twenty years later when all those unwanted children would have grown up to prime crime age (disproportionately having lived the kinds of neglected childhoods that make them more likely to commit violent crimes).

So, covering contraception is the ounce of prevention that saves us the pound of cure. The same can't be said for botox treatments and penis enlargements.
 
isn't that analagous to saying we want coverage for fiber pills, or supplementation for organic food to limit cholesterol.....after all...an ounce of prevention..

or..covering toothpaste...to aid in prevention of tooth decay...

absent a medical condition there are ample means , readily available means, to aid in prevention...
 
I'm trying to get a handle on why, exactly, various people object to healthcare insurance being required to cover contraception. Is this just an objection to ALL government mandates about healthcare insurance? Or is it really just an objection to taking away the option for a religiously-affiliated organization to select an insurance package that doesn't cover a particular thing that the religion objects to?

If it's the latter, would you apply that mandate even-handedly to any religious objection? For example, Jehova's Witnesses object to blood transfusions. Would you permit organizations affiliated with them to opt for insurance that doesn't cover blood transfusions? Scientologists object to pretty much all standard forms of psychiatric care. Would you permit their affiliates to to opt for insurance that doesn't cover such care? Lots of religions object to a man "spilling his seed." Would you permit their affiliates to opt for insurance that doesn't cover male fertility testing (which requires testing of sperm)? Jainists aren't permitted to harm any animal. Would you permit Jainism-affiliated organizations to opt for health insurance that didn't cover any drugs, procedures, or devices that were tested on animals? Some religions are devoutly pacifist. Would their affiliates be permitted to refuse coverage for wounds veterans received fighting for our country, if the religion claimed that was an article of their faith?

Practically anything I can think of that insurance might cover could be objected to by one established religion or another. Christian Scientists object to nearly all forms of serious medical intervention, for example. You'd also be able to rule out insurance that covers non-emergency treatment on pretty much any given day of the week, on the grounds that it's the holy day of one religion or another. And you could rule out insurance that covers pretty much any given type of hospital food, since various religions have so many different dietary rules. There are even religions that have rules against people from certain castes, or women, becoming doctors, so you could have insurance that won't cover treatment by those people.

So, if you're a proponent of leaving Catholic-affiliated organizations the option of selecting insurers that don't cover contraception, are you planning to apply that same principle across-the-board to all the various things religions could object to?

For me, that sounds like a recipe for abuse and fraud. Since we don't want the government getting into the business of checking the authenticity of religious faith, and since anyone can invent a religion any time he wants with any rules he wants for it, you'd just be creating an incentive for fake religions that organizations could affiliate themselves with in order to cut their health insurance costs.

"Sorry, my organization is affiliated with a religions that believes that AIDS is a divinely-ordained disease that mankind must not interfere with, so we won't be paying for any of those expensive HIV treatments."

"We consider it an abomination to place any hardware into the human body, so you'll have to pay for your pacemaker and your hip replacement out of pocket."

"We think doctors must first be blessed by the Grand Pontiff before God will permit them to heal people, so our insurance will only cover charges from doctors who have the Holy Seal (which can be obtained at the low cost of $100,000, paid by cashier's check made out to Grand Pontiff, Inc.)."

It also seems unworkable in a situation where there is a rule against insurers denying people coverage for pre-existing conditions. Let's say I'm working for a Jehova's Witness-affiliated organization when I find out I've got a medical condition that is going to require a lot of surgeries and then an expensive lifelong regime of blood-based treatments (which my Witness-compliant insurer won't cover). If that looks like it's going to be a big enough expense, then my incentive would be to change employers and, if needed, buy private insurance. When I do so, I'll drop out of the insurance pool for the Witness-affiliated organization, saving them a ton of money. By letting some religious-affiliated organizations shed the expense of their sick workers, such a rule would create an even greater incentive for fraudulent religious claims, and would put organizations affiliated with some religions at a competitive advantage against organizations affiliated with other religions. A university affiliated with a religion with the right dogmas to make its insurance coverage dirt cheap (and functionally worthless), could charge students significantly less for education than a university affiliated with a more enlightened faith that permits modern medical care -- and, meanwhile, the reactionary university's employees and students would have the safety net of knowing that if they ever did get sick, they could buy real insurance coverage and still be covered for those pre-existing conditions, so there's no loss for them.

It just seems so much simpler and more reasonable, to me, to apply one set of rules across the board, whatever they might be, for all organizations, blind to their religious dogmas. Religious-affiliated organizations would still be free to spend their energy convincing their employees to VOLUNTARILY comply with their dogmas, rather than coercing them by refusing basic medical coverage.

Mr. AK,

Contraception is an elective procedure. Everything else you describe is non-elective.

But thanks for the long winded red herring, nonetheless.
 
#1. O'bungle does not have the constitutional authority to force an insurance company to cover or not cover anything.

#2. O'bungle does not have the constitutional authority to force an religious organization to cover an item that would violate the tenents of thier faith.

#3. This is not about contraception, that is just how lefty is spinning this debate.
 
Ultimately, they're all elective. You don't need to get your hip replaced. You can elect to stay in a wheelchair. But I think I understand what you're getting at. Would your bright-line rule be that it's OK for organizations to exclude coverage for lifestyle procedures but not for life-saving procedures? Something like that?

If so, contraception would just be the tip of the iceberg. There's all sorts of stuff that currently gets covered by healthcare that is more about making our lives more pleasant than about saving our lives. For example, I have a prescription to an anti-histamine. I absolutely don't need it to survive. I could give it up with a lot less suffering than entailed in giving up sex. I'd just need to stay in on high-pollen days, watch what I eat a bit more carefully, and put up with some more stuffy noses. So, if antihistamines for seasonal allergy sufferers were otherwise mandated to be covered, would you allow, say, the Christian Scientists to exclude that coverage?

Similarly, I have a coworker who has insomnia. It's not crippling. Without drugs, he'd just have more groggy days and more blown weekends when he spends much of the day in bed to catch up on Z's missed during the week. So, his prescription is ultimately an elective thing, like contraceptives. It's about improving his lifestyle, not saving his life. If he worked for a Scientologist-affiliated organization, would it be OK for them to say they're not covering that, because they think such drugs are bad (and that he should instead be auditing his thetans, or whatever it is they do)?

Drawing the line there, between lifestyle and life-saving measures would, I admit, diminish my objections to this. But it still seems like a twisted road to go down. You still wind up with a situation where a religion could effectively give its affiliates a cost advantage by simply declaring ALL lifestyle medications and procedures to be verboten.
 
Assuming "O'bungle" is a childish reference to Obama, then of course Obama doesn't have that Constitutional authority. It requires a law, passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the president. But that's what we have. There's nothing Constitutionally wrong with government mandating that insurance companies cover or not cover various things, any more than there's something Constitutionally wrong with government dictating that automobile manufacturers include seat-belts in their cars, or that food manufacturers include nutrition information on their packaging. There is a long, long history of government setting terms for what has to be included in commercial products.

As for your second point, what I was trying to get at in my first post was whether you would apply this evenly across the board. Would you, for example, allow Christian Scientist-affiliated organizations to go with insurance that didn't cover anything that violated the tenets of their faith (which is to say, insurance that covered almost no drugs or medical procedures at all). Would you allow an organization affiliated with a strictly patriarchal religion to go with insurance that didn't cover treatment by female doctors and nurses (who, after all, the religion believes should be in the home, not the workplace)?

I hope you'll engage with honest discussion of those questions, as I'm genuinely curious about your reasoning, not trying to play a game of "gotcha" here.
 
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